Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Joe Higgins MEP: McDonald & Ganley finished!

Options
123468

Comments

  • Options
    #152
    youcrazyjesus!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭youcrazyjesus!


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    If I understand Joe correctly he believes that the workers in an enterprise should share the ownership & profits of that enterprise, not that we should all be little grey men running around earning exactly the same.

    He seems to mainly go on about the conspiracy against ordinary people (me, you, the busman and the small business owner down the street too) by banks, developers and Fianna Fáil that saw an unsustainable growth actively encouraged with no thought for what would happen when it was over and the profits of the property bubble going into the hands of a particular class of people. Me and you will pay for the fallout from this while the profits are safely tucked away with the right people. Any politician willing to spell out in very plain terms what went on in this country over the last two decades is alright by me. Even if I don't agree with everything he says.


  • Options
    #153
    makl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭makl


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Once again I’d point out that Higgins’ comments are often classist (and often quite offensive, in my opinion).

    shuda extended the quotes in the first place to include above, but regardless,

    you find this classist and offensive??!! hope you dont find this post offensive mother of God

    cant believe i'm explainin this but just cos he represents workers doesnt mean he's classist, talk about pedantic here. he's classist if he rails against people cos they're not workin class full stop. he rails against people who exploit the workin class. if a company gives their workers a fair crack of the whip then fair play to them

    yea there is other stuff to argue wit regards to socialism etc, a lot of which makes me anti-socialist, but the fact that he represents workers and does his best for them, as well as actin on it, for ex takin home less than average wage 97-2007 - this FF slua take home multiples of this and still claim to represent the workin class?? goin against this aint classist fella, common sense tis all


  • Options
    #154
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    makl wrote: »
    ... cant believe i'm explainin this but just cos he represents workers doesnt mean he's classist, talk about pedantic here.

    His position is as easily interpreted as his representing workers because he is classist. I'm not engaging in a false pedantry here. He interprets the world in terms of capital and labour, presumes that capitalists exploit labour, and that this is inherently unjust.


  • Options
    #155
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    youcrazyjesus! wrote: »
    Actually, if your business is run as you say it is you'd fit in quite well with Joe's version of socialism.
    ...for now. But later, when my hard work and risk-taking begins to bear fruit, and I actually start to take a share in the company's profits on top of my salary - at that point I become a class enemy, an exploiter and an evil capitalist?


  • Options
    #156
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    makl wrote: »
    you find this classist and offensive??!! hope you dont find this post offensive mother of God

    cant believe i'm explainin this but just cos he represents workers doesnt mean he's classist, talk about pedantic here.
    Higgins claims to be "the best fighter money can't buy", as he rails against the evil, money-grabbing, exploitative capitalists on behalf of the ordinary, average, penny-less, Joe Soap, working class man. Of course, without Joe, the poor, downtrodden masses would be doomed to a life of indentured slavery and servitude because, ye know, they’re incapable of achieving anything on their own in this big, bad, capitalist world.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #157
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Higgins claims to be "the best fighter money can't buy", as he rails against the evil, money-grabbing, exploitative capitalists on behalf of the ordinary, average, penny-less, Joe Soap, working class man. Of course, without Joe, the poor, downtrodden masses would be doomed to a life of indentured slavery and servitude because, ye know, they’re incapable of achieving anything on their own in this big, bad, capitalist world.

    Do you not believe that there are people in our society who are condemned to a life of poverty because the system has failed them??


  • Options
    #158
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Theres just so many holes in Higgins' socialistic view you could really go on all day.

    He represents the down trodden worker. Is this the same worker who, in Ireland, can get a degree in Civil Engineering for, erm, €0? Is this the same worker who can set up his own business?

    Socialism, as DF correctly points out, is based on an older time. For example I sometimes receive money for designing websites, does this make me a dirty capitalist? But Im also now unemployed because the shop owners wont give me a job, so am I also an example of someone trodden upon by the dirty capitalists? I would like to know where does my whole person fits in the socialist definition.


  • Options
    #159
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #160
    makl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭makl


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    His position is as easily interpreted as his representing workers because he is classist. I'm not engaging in a false pedantry here. He interprets the world in terms of capital and labour, presumes that capitalists exploit labour, and that this is inherently unjust.

    whether ur suggestin it or not, lets be clear about it. capitalism is not a class its a philosophy. it's not opposed to workin class, its opposed to other philosophies. if you are against workiun/middle/upper class you are classist. this is not true in higgins case. if there is a capitalist class, it doesn't exclude workin class people

    TURGON - you're dead right, and theres no way i'm gonna try defend it. but thats what happens when you go wit a philosophy, your open to attacks from all sides. what are the other options? do nothin, try and take all the good bits from each one (fair play if ya can, but a bit idealistic), or go with the one thats closest to what you think, acceptin the fact that ur leavin urself open to attacks from everywhere. there'a always gonna be someone who'll riddle your own beliefs with bullets.

    djpbarry - see above... capitalists are from all classes ... yea a load of them are middle or upper, but thats not the problem. the problem is when capitalists decide to sh*t on their workers, SR Technics bein one of the most recent examples of those jumpin on the recession bandwagon and headin wherevers cheaper. your last line is a ridiculous exaggeration but fair play for comin up wit it

    donegalfella, if the entrepreneurs, the risk-takers, the visionaries dont sh*t on their workers, fine. but fair enough, it'd be a good question for him. what about chuck feeney, bill gates etc etc? what about the rich capitalists who treat their workers fairly? i cant see him havin a problem wit it.


  • Options
    #161
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I'll tell you DF, nowhere.nowhere nowhere.

    The bible according to Joe is that everyone apart from "the workerrs" contributes nothing.

    The state exists only to ensure that "the workerrs" are properly looked after,no cognisance of output,productivity or anything like that .

    I only start up a business to support "the workerrs" I deserve nothing out of my risk or investment.I don't need to make a profit or get a return.
    All that matters is that "the workerrs" are looked after whether they be total wasters of good employees.

    That's all Joe boy is interested in folks, anything I have heard him speak, I never ONCE heard him come from any other outlook.

    Pathetic.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #162
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #163
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    What I love is when the unions make it so hard for companies to set up here through high wages and other social partnership deals, yet when it becomes too hard for the company and they move abroad its somehow the companies fault.


  • Options
    #164
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Do you not believe that there are people in our society who are condemned to a life of poverty because the system has failed them??
    What people are you referring to and how has “the system” “failed them”?
    makl wrote: »
    ...thats what happens when you go wit a philosophy, your open to attacks from all sides. what are the other options? do nothin, try and take all the good bits from each one (fair play if ya can, but a bit idealistic)...
    Why is that “a bit idealistic”? We can’t just be a little socialist? It’s all or nothing?
    makl wrote: »
    your last line is a ridiculous exaggeration ....
    The point is that I don’t subscribe to the idea that people on lower incomes (if that’s who we’re defining as “working class”) are incapable of working their way up the socio-economic ladder (for want of a better expression). The state already provides ample support for its citizens; I fail to see why a saviour (in the form of Higgins) is necessary.
    makl wrote: »
    ...what about the rich capitalists who treat their workers fairly?
    Define “fairly”. For example, you mention SR Technics; do you think it’s acceptable for a firm to lay off staff in order to cut costs? Do you think it is acceptable for a firm to move overseas if their operation in Ireland has become unprofitable?


  • Options
    #165
    makl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭makl


    "Really? Not according to Marx, who saw the capitalists and the proletariat as belonging to two different, mutually exclusive classes."

    No. it was the bourgeoisie and proletariat. capitalists are generally bourgeoisie, but jim the plumber can still go out and make a heap of cash the capitalist way but will still be workin class.

    "Why is that “a bit idealistic”? We can’t just be a little socialist? It’s all or nothing?"

    it be top class.. it'd be feckin fantastic. but there are arses everywhere dyin for that extra buck and they'd wreck it. as has been seen recently. if it worked it'd be done here. scanda models prob closest to it, wont happen here. welfare system is too good here, govt provides too much support that way, it thinks it can buy them off with cash. if it really wanted to it'd educate them in decent schools, and not have a segregated two-tier school system. joe higgins a saviour? course not, but stil needed to represent workers.

    define fairly: sr technics fecked off with 3 years contracts on its books. dont agree with the point about movin off whenever ya feel like it, there needs to be some sort of responsibility. if your lifelong butcher cant compete with tesco do you shop in tesco? or do u take into account the more personal service u've got all your life?

    and bill gates. i'm talkin about his philanthropy, as with chuck feeney. he didnt exploit his own workers, but in fairness prob destroyed the jobs of rival company workers. but again, theyre all pawns in the same game. not here nor there but.


  • Options
    #166
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #167
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    So would you define Harry Potter novelist J. K. Rowling as "working class," even though she is now worth over €1 billion? She started off on welfare, after all, and made herself rich through her own initiative and hard work.

    Well she is not fully a capitalist either, since she wrote the thing. So much for the labour theory of value.

    Capitalists own the means of production. So man who owns one share in Manchester United is a capitalist, and Ronaldo is a prole.


  • Options
    #168
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    What is this nonsense talk of a "two-tier education system"? Its just shows that if there isn't a problem, some people will invent one just to have some platform on which to debate their views.


    As regards the butcher and Tesco: whereas they cannot compete equally on price the former can make a case of quality. So I would never buy a steak in Tescos, and in fact I often purchase meat for excessive prices in the butchers because it is better.

    Another anti-free market thing the government do is keep down budget retailers. Aldi and Lidl have a size limit on their shops; Tescos etc do not. I disagree with this intervention. If Tesco deserve the customers the government thinks they do, the onus should be on them to clearly outline why it is worth spending a few extra euro in Tesco rather than going down to Aldi.

    It is kind of the same with foreign beefs, asfaik, with large tariffs being applied. In effect the government isnt giving us the honest choice, instead distorting the perspective to favour Ireland. I think that if Irish Farmers want to survive they should outline why it is worth spending extra on Irish beef. They should not expect the government to falsely prop them up.

    I think its to do with personal choice. I should be able to judge between Brazilian Beef and Irish Beef on its actual merits (price for the former, quality for the latter) rather than the government giving the Irish a boost.

    I assume Higgins would be against all that?


  • Options
    #169
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Given our current economic situation I would say that the Goose has probably topped herself.


  • Options
    #170
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    djpbarry wrote: »
    What people are you referring to and how has “the system” “failed them”?

    The most obvious one is the single mothers. Alot of single mothers cannot work for the simple reason there is no encouragement to do so. The benefits they would lose by taking up full time employment outweigh any wage they can earn.
    They are caught in a cycle which is very difficult to break out of and many cant.

    This obviously doesnt apply to all as many can work and manage to make ends meet, but its the ones who find themselves in this situation at a young age with no qualifacations that get trapped in this cycle of poverty.


  • Options
    #171
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I completely agree with this. A company owes its employees nothing but the wage they work for. If an excellent employee decides they're not getting paid enough and the cost of living is too high then they can move to another country and they owe the company nothing. The same should be true of employers.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #172
    makl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭makl


    "So would you define Harry Potter novelist J. K. Rowling as "working class," even though she is now worth over €1 billion? She started off on welfare, after all, and made herself rich through her own initiative and hard work."

    No. But if she was hirin out students to write some of her chapters thats when it starts. she can act like bill gates and pay em well, or not, and then be the kind of capitalist that higgins etc goes against. class aint just about money too. its about who ya hang around wit, what u prioritise etc etc


    "No, there doesn't. We can expect corporations to remain here only if Ireland remains viable as a place to do business. If our rampant wage inflation, soaring commercial rents, corrosive social partnership model, and so on, have undermined corporate profitability—as they have—then corporations have no "responsibility" to stay."

    Thats why i said we need good govt to help this. compamies owe their workers more than wages, imo, but understand flip side of coin






    "Gates and others like him have helped create employment for millions in the IT industry around the world. That doesn't count?"

    course it does. i never said he treats his workers badly. his way of defeat rivals may have messed up other workers in other compamies, but they prob just joined microsoft in the end. gates is phenomenal, so is feeney. what theyre doinfor the world is more than any politician in thiscountry is doin now..
    have to agree to disagree on da butcher q.


  • Options
    #173
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    The most obvious one is the single mothers.
    …
    This obviously doesnt apply to all as many can work and manage to make ends meet, but its the ones who find themselves in this situation at a young age with no qualifacations that get trapped in this cycle of poverty.
    There are some people in this country who struggle to make ends meet – I’m not denying that. But generally, we’re talking about people in a specific set of circumstances. Those at the greatest risk of poverty in this country are often single mothers, physically or mentally disabled, elderly, etc. But Joe isn't just talking about representing people in these very specific situations. He claims to represent everyone in the “working class”.
    makl wrote: »
    compamies owe their workers more than wages…
    Why? If you hire a tradesman to do a job for you, do you owe him more than the fee agreed for the work? If you take a taxi home after a night out, do you owe the taxi driver more than the fare?
    makl wrote: »
    his way of defeat rivals may have messed up other workers in other compamies, but they prob just joined microsoft in the end.
    The employees of all the companies driven out of business by Microsoft now work for Microsoft? I doubt it.

    I’m also interested to know why it’s ok for Microsoft to “out-compete” their rivals, but it’s not ok for those rivals to shed workers and/or cut costs when the going gets tough?


  • Options
    #174
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Those at the greatest risk of poverty in this country are often single mothers, physically or mentally disabled, elderly, etc. But Joe isn't just talking about representing people in these very specific situations. He claims to represent everyone in the “working class”.

    Maybe. The definition of poverty in this country often ignores the cost of Tax, creche care, and housing on the supposed "middle classes".


  • Options
    #175
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #176
    livingtargets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭livingtargets


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class

    This article goes some way in explaining the term.

    Personally I`d say that my family is working class because both my parents have to work to support the family and I`d say that I live in a working class area since all of my neighbours are in a similar position.


  • Options
    #177
    livingtargets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭livingtargets


    turgon wrote: »
    What is this nonsense talk of a "two-tier education system"? Its just shows that if there isn't a problem, some people will invent one just to have some platform on which to debate their views.

    A private run school has better facilities,buildings and equipment than a
    school which is nothing more than a prefab with a leaky roof and a load of battered old text books.

    Joe Higgins didn`t "invent" that.

    The secondary school I attend only got a proper building the year I entered and was operating for about a decade in a couple of prefabs.


  • Options
    #178
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    djpbarry wrote: »
    There are some people in this country who struggle to make ends meet – I’m not denying that. But generally, we’re talking about people in a specific set of circumstances. Those at the greatest risk of poverty in this country are often single mothers, physically or mentally disabled, elderly, etc. But Joe isn't just talking about representing people in these very specific situations. He claims to represent everyone in the “working class”.

    While Joe talks about the economy as a whole he generally directs his efforts at specific areas of injustice. This is where his true value lies.
    The overall methodology of his politics is flawed and unworkable for the most part but it is the ideal of a fair deal for workers that people are drawn to.


  • Options
    #179
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    livingtargets wrote: »
    ...a school which is nothing more than a prefab with a leaky roof and a load of battered old text books.
    It would be stretching it to say that every state-run school in this country falls into that category.


  • Options
    #180
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    The overall methodology of his politics is flawed and unworkable for the most part but it is the ideal of a fair deal for workers that people are drawn to.
    But that's what we're trying to get to the bottom of; how do we define a "worker" and how do we define a "fair deal"?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #181
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    That wiki entry is very good. ( I honestly think Wikipedia is very good most times, anyway).

    On the Marxist definition of working class it points out that pensioners dependent on dividends and stock appreciation are not working class, even if blue collar, but that high paid contract workers can be, if their job is precarious.
    For example, retired factory workers are working class in the popular sense; but to the extent that they live off fixed incomes, financed by stock in corporations whose earnings are profit extracted from current workers, retired factory workers' interests, and possibly their identities and politics, are not working class.


Advertisement