Joe Higgins MEP: McDonald & Ganley finished!

Taxipete29

djpbarry wrote: »

But that's what we're trying to get to the bottom of; how do we define a "worker" and how do we define a "fair deal"?

You are over complicating the issue. If someone thinks Joe Higgins is for them then he probably is. If you think he is against you, then he may have some issue with how you conduct your business.

As for whats a fair deal. I think that has more to do with the Government than employers. Most employers are fair with the wages they pay and conditions they set( In this country anyway). The ones that arent are usually dealt with or at least exposed.

djpbarry

Taxipete29 wrote: »

If you think he is against you, then he may have some issue with how you conduct your business.

That’s pretty unlikely. But anyway, I never said that Higgins was “against me”. But I live in Dublin and so, whether I like it or not, he now represents me in Brussels, so I want to know exactly what it is he stands for.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

As for whats a fair deal. I think that has more to do with the Government than employers. Most employers are fair with the wages they pay and conditions they set( In this country anyway). The ones that arent are usually dealt with or at least exposed.

And I would be inclined to agree. Many of our labour laws originated in Brussels, yet Higgins claims he’s off to the European Parliament to fight the “corporate culture” within the EU.

Fulton Crown

All this talk about "working class" "middle class" etc is essentially sterile.

It's mainly an attitude of mind.

The company i work in is a meritocracy ..you progress on the basis of results and the capabilities you display.

Leadership, initiative, calculated risk taking is rewarded......sitting on the fence....punching in time is ...shown the door......

Higgins in my opinion represents the latter...would have no place in my voting preferences.

People will regret voting for this clown in Europe.....trust me

Taxipete29

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s pretty unlikely. But anyway, I never said that Higgins was “against me”. But I live in Dublin and so, whether I like it or not, he now represents me in Brussels, so I want to know exactly what it is he stands for..

Totally agree with you, I always like to know what my representatives are about from local right up to European. Its only good sense.

FlutterinBantam

Fulton Crown wrote: »

All this talk about "working class" "middle class" etc is essentially sterile.

It's mainly an attitude of mind.

The company i work in is a meritocracy ..you progress on the basis of results and the capabilities you display.

Leadership, initiative, calculated risk taking is rewarded......sitting on the fence....punching in time is ...shown the door......

Higgins in my opinion represents the latter...would have no place in my voting preferences.

People will regret voting for this clown in Europe.....trust me

What does agitating against everything merit Fulton??

Election to Europe:D

Fulton Crown

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What does agitating against everything merit Fulton??

Election to Europe:D

Looks kike the peoples champion has succeeded in fooling enough of the people this time.

But when you see that crud Healy Rae and singin Finian elected you begin to undrstand the stupidity of the irish electorate....some of them anyways....

turgon

livingtargets wrote: »

The secondary school I attend only got a proper building the year I entered and was operating for about a decade in a couple of prefabs.

As another poster said, your just generalising. One purchases ones own books, so I fail to see how public schools have "battered old textbooks." Just socialist imagery and complete fiction. And does this have an impact on grades btw?

Oh and whats your solution? Forbid people paying money to the school their child is in?

conchubhar1

its not about rich or poor

its not about class ect

its about people living on the street and starving and people wanting to balance it out, you are not going to become homeless over it but it would make a better ireland....

Piste

It is about class, in that we want to know what Higgins regards as "working class", i.e. who he claims to be representing.

asdasd

its about people living on the street and starving

The homeless are largely responsible for their own plight. As it happens I know a homeless guy, in fact went to college with him, and the responsibility for his plight lies with him. The solution would be to stop drinking. This guy

1) Came from a respectable lower middle class environment
2) Did ok at uni
3) Met a strange insecure girl
4) Got together. Had two kids. left college with a degree
5) Worked for a while (IT). Pretty good wages too (80K at one stage)
6) Drank heavily. Lost job. Allegedly got violent. Charged with domestic violence but it didnt go to trial.
7) Kicked out. Moved into private flat. Loses all money. Gets rent supplement.

At this stage he is an anti-hero. We all dislike him, right? A deadbeat dad who never meets his kids. A man who leaves his wife to look after everything.


Then:

8) He gets kicked out of flat for wrecking the place. After another flat fails, and another, he ends up on the street.

Now he is homeless. And the responibility now lies with "we as a society".

There is plenty of social provision in this state to allow people to never end up on the street. Ever.

Had Bob ( not his real name) not wrecked his private flat he could be on rent supplement and dole for the rest of his life. Ending up on the street was Bob's fault. Transferring more money to Bob, giving him housing (etc.) is all not going to work. The money is better spent on social housing for poor workers, not on a segement of the lumpen proletariat which can never be redeemed, and whose plight is not caused by those of us who crowd into trains, and cars, to work in cubicles to pay for him. For all I know Bob is happy enough, but plenty cubicilised workers are clearly unhappy.

The homeless situation, in general a situation involving people who not only cannot hold down a job but who cannot maintain a living space, is not going to be solved. We should throw some money at it. Build hostels etc. But homelessness will always be there. It has little or nothing to do with capitalism, "social relations", we as a society, or anything else.

It has bog all to do with with what used to be working class politics.

makl

donegalfella wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, Ms Rowling wrote all of her Harry Potter stories herself, longhand, in manuscript.

So can you identify the point where she stopped being a working-class prole and began being a capitalist?[\QUOTE]

never said she was. she's not. course she wrote her books herself. but if she wanted to go all capitalist, thats how she could go about it. like jim the plumber. he can build up contacts, then set up his company - jim's plumbers. sends out young lads on the jobs he doesnt wants, pays em a wage, they take it until they've their own contacts built up. jim only does a bit of plumbin but makes in heaps actin as the middle man. workin class capitalist

donegalfella wrote: »

That's a new one to me. Class is about "who ya hang around wit [sic]"? Does that mean that the only true prole is the one with no bourgeois friends?[\QUOTE]

well its not new. jim decides to start goin to art galleries, sendin his kids to private schools (turgon - the two-tier ed system), goin to fancy bars, and yea, basically hangin around with more bourgeois people. that fact that he hangs around wit middle-class doesnt make him mid-class, its the fact that he does what they do - eventually actin middle-class long enough may not make him fully middleclass but his kids will prob turn out to be. so who ya hang around wit sic sic sic has a big role.

Companies compete in the free market. Do you really think Microsoft's stance should be, "You know, those employees over at Apple really need a break. Let's release a really crappy version of Windows just so they can forge ahead with television ads mocking how useless it is."

Wait.... Maybe you do have a point...! [\QUOTE]

take intel.fined a billion or so for drivin rivals out of the market. where do these workers go to find work? a shop? or the next business to move into town? same wit starbucks. they move into cavan town with 6 franchises, drive out rivals. where do local waiters n waitresses go find work? starbucks can still treat their own workers well. no logo by klein

Are you alive to the irony that Gates could not be doing any philanthropic work had he not spent years accumulating profits in an overtly capitalistic way?[\QUOTE]

i know its ironic. the catholic church couldnt have helped millions without plunderin most of the world. i'm not condonin it, just wonderin higgins opinion on it.

someone else wrote, cant find it, about havin to pay taxis more etc for a trip home. no, of course you dont. thats ridiculous. but what if u have a regular taxi driver, always pickin you up etc etc, basically a better service. taxis are a bad example at mo anyway for other reasons outside of here...i'm not talkin about a once off service. i've already said i understand the flip side of the coin, a company can feck off it wants to. i think its unfair. if the workers have put years of time n effort into buildin a company up, i think the company owes them more than wages. it owes them the right to push thru hard times. sr technics didnt do this.


if any1 missed this btw

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0613/1224248750892.html

asdasd

hey move into cavan town with 6 franchises, drive out rivals. where do local waiters n waitresses go find work? starbucks can still treat their own workers well. no logo by klein

I think Klein actually appeals to the middle classes. They can consume in "independent" stores - ignoring ikea, Macys etc. Often they pay more, or have to hunt the obscure furniture store down ( which is clearly spending time on consumerism). Klein is their gospel. Meanwhile those of us who dont give a **** shop in Target, and/or Ikea.

As for coffee, she is wrong. Coffee and the number of outlets increases when Starbucks comes to town.

turgon

makl wrote: »

(turgon - the two-tier ed system)

Yes, I am well aware you believe in a two tier education system. I am also well aware that you failed to address the points I made in my post above.

djpbarry

makl wrote: »

well its not new. jim decides to start goin to art galleries, sendin his kids to private schools (turgon - the two-tier ed system), goin to fancy bars, and yea, basically hangin around with more bourgeois people. that fact that he hangs around wit middle-class doesnt make him mid-class, its the fact that he does what they do - eventually actin middle-class long enough may not make him fully middleclass but his kids will prob turn out to be.

So if somebody starts doing well for themselves and enjoying life (whatever that may entail), Joe doesn’t represent them?

take intel.fined a billion or so for drivin rivals out of the market. where do these workers go to find work? a shop? or the next business to move into town?

That’s a pretty simplistic economic model you’ve got there – one employer leaves and another springs up from nowhere?

someone else wrote, cant find it, about havin to pay taxis more etc for a trip home. no, of course you dont. thats ridiculous. but what if u have a regular taxi driver, always pickin you up etc etc, basically a better service. taxis are a bad example at mo anyway…

Use any example you want. I fail to see why anyone deserves anything other than their salary for the work they do.

Just out of curiosity (somebody may have asked this already, but anyway), is this loyalty a two-way thing? Is it ok for an employee to move to a rival firm for better pay? Or should the fact that they “owe” their current employer be taken into consideration?

makl

turgon wrote: »

1. What is this nonsense talk of a "two-tier education system"? Its just shows that if there isn't a problem, some people will invent one just to have some platform on which to debate their views.


2. As regards the butcher and Tesco: whereas they cannot compete equally on price the former can make a case of quality. So I would never buy a steak in Tescos, and in fact I often purchase meat for excessive prices in the butchers because it is better.

3. Another anti-free market thing the government do is keep down budget retailers. Aldi and Lidl have a size limit on their shops; Tescos etc do not. I disagree with this intervention. If Tesco deserve the customers the government thinks they do, the onus should be on them to clearly outline why it is worth spending a few extra euro in Tesco rather than going down to Aldi.

4. It is kind of the same with foreign beefs, asfaik, with large tariffs being applied. In effect the government isnt giving us the honest choice, instead distorting the perspective to favour Ireland. I think that if Irish Farmers want to survive they should outline why it is worth spending extra on Irish beef. They should not expect the government to falsely prop them up.

5. I think its to do with personal choice. I should be able to judge between Brazilian Beef and Irish Beef on its actual merits (price for the former, quality for the latter) rather than the government giving the Irish a boost.

I assume Higgins would be against all that?

numbered ur posts cos cant do tha quote thing. sorry overlooked them cos agreed wit most of em

1. its not nonsense or invented its fact.
2. same here, agree - djpbarry the loyalty is a 2-way thing - discounts, loyalty cards etc etc
3. agreed
4. agreed
5. agreed. once its made clear that u know what ur buyin. also, i'd like know that workers have it fair in both irish and brazilian plants.

not too concerned what higgins says about it. fact is, he's tryin to make sure workers not gettin a raw deal. for me, thats more than those vyin for dub mep election hav been doin.


djpbarry - if intels rival goes out of business and leaves, thats when Intel moves in, not another one. asdasd has a fair point tho.

turgon

Ok there may be technically a "two-tiered" education system.

Question 1: Does it make any difference to the pupil? I went to public school and I did excellent in the LC, because I have encouraging parents. I would be of the opinion that kids do well in private school because a) they are under pressure because they know they have to perform and b) parents who are bothered to send them to private school probably care more about them that the average parent.

This talk of private schools having better teachers is just propaganda.

Question 2: What is your solution?

PopeBuckfastXVI

turgon wrote: »

Ok there may be technically a "two-tiered" education system.

Question 1: Does it make any difference to the pupil? I went to public school and I did excellent in the LC, because I have encouraging parents. I would be of the opinion that kids do well in private school because a) they are under pressure because they know they have to perform and b) parents who are bothered to send them to private school probably care more about them that the average parent.

This talk of private schools having better teachers is just propaganda.

Question 2: What is your solution?

I went to a private school for a year.

I found many of the cleverest pupils, that got the best results, were there on academic scholarship. i.e. they were at that school because they got good results, they didn't get good results because they were at the school.

sink

turgon wrote: »

This talk of private schools having better teachers is just propaganda.

True, I went to a private boarding school for 6 years and some of the teachers were really bad, especially my Irish teacher - worst teacher ever!

The main difference between private and public is the facilities. We had very good extra curricular and sports facilities.

Permabear

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P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

First, the DES does not run any schools, private or public.

Second, the majority of second-level schools are private.

Third, you would not be accepted as qualified to teach in any recognised school in Ireland, private or public, fee-paying or in the free education scheme, without a qualification in education as well as appropriate credentials in a subject or subjects. That leaves only the unrecognised schools, those often referred to as grind schools.

conchubhar1

where did you come up with the ''majority of schools are private'' ?

nonsense

turgon

Theyre not owned by the state asfaik.

Community schools are owned by the boards of management. VEC's are owned by the council.

asdasd

Privately owned and publically funded.

conchubhar1

where did you come up with the ''majority of schools are private'' ?

nonsense

asdasd

The majority of Irish schools are privately owned by Churches. There are different levels of funding from the State depending on whether the school is fee-paying or not.

conchubhar1

ok

the private used in the context of the discussion above tends to lean towards fee paying schools, or is this just me?

asdasd

Well, i sympathise. So lets say Fee-Paying for what other countries call Private :-)

conchubhar1

private has many meanings
fee paying can pretty much only mean fee paying and usually means private fee paying schools

anyway - the point is that the majority of schools are not fee paying.....

PopeBuckfastXVI

conchubhar1 wrote: »

private has many meanings
fee paying can pretty much only mean fee paying and usually means private fee paying schools

anyway - the point is that the majority of schools are not fee paying.....

Fee paying schools (as we understand the term, leaving aside grind schools) don't confer any academic advantage that I've seen, and so anyone going to a non fee paying school has just as much chance at getting into college/university. I don't see how the existence of fee paying schools is somehow keeping the 'working classes' down, unless playing lacrosse and hockey should be a human right?

You know they can't pay their teachers right, so they just get them from the same pool, and for the same money as any other school?

I had Irish lessons off a teacher that didn't seem to give a f*ck, in a rotting prefab, with my own text books, at a sh*tty old desk covered in graffiti, all at a fee paying school.

I fail to see the major issue with their existence?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.