Joe Higgins MEP: McDonald & Ganley finished!

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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And my point is that you are not eligible to be appointed as a teacher in a recognised school without a suitable teaching qualification.

Subject expertise and experience of teaching in a university are not guarantors of success in teaching in a second level school.

djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

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But, with respect, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're qualified to teach English to kids. I've met many an academic who is undoubtedly brilliant within their field, but cannot teach to save his/her life. One lecturer of mine in particular springs to mind; undoubtedly an expert in his field, but an absolutely appalling teacher, even after 40-odd years of lecturing experience.

Permabear

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PopeBuckfastXVI

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=621

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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If it is a PhD in English teaching, then you might be eligible. It could be considered a concurrent degree: that is one that combines subject component and teaching component. If you want to join the public sector, you should raise the question with the proper authorities; I think the proper authority is the Teaching Council, which is a quango. [Mind you, that amounts to a formidable set of challenges for a libertarian.]

True—but then a B.A., at least in Ireland, is no guarantee of subject expertise;

That's another debate, one worth conducting. But it makes for a better bet than the absence of any qualification.

and from what I've seen, many holders of the H. Dip. are pretty awful teachers.

As are some holders of PhDs!

The mediocre performance of Irish secondary school students by international standards would seem to support that opinion.

That looks to me like an area where you can find a study to support any prejudice that you already have. There seem to be studies that suggest that the standards in Ireland are high, and others to suggest the converse.

conchubhar1

i have no problem with them per se

as you said they give little added benefit - unless you want to do the work
they arent magic

you went to private school and it was bad - boo hoo?
not being cheeky or harse but you should have went to a normal school and saved a lot of money.....

conchubhar1

a phd
is a phd

a hdip is a hdip - surely you did not have education in logic?

you have no qualification to teach.... end of

PopeBuckfastXVI

conchubhar1 wrote: »

you went to private school and it was bad - boo hoo?
not being cheeky or harse but you should have went to a normal school and saved a lot of money.....

I was pointing out that the classrooms weren't made of gold and caviare, that's all. In fact someone previously in this thread complained about non fee paying schools having prefabs (I didn't see you 'boo hoo' then), I was just dispelling some myths.

I went to a non fee paying school for most of my education, only switching in 6th year. The school buildings and science labs in my non fee paying school were actually better than the fee paying one.

conchubhar1

i didnt see that point.....

eudcation is not about the building........... its about learning and in fee paying schools they do have better teachers

well did you go to the school and check it out

or are you/famlily or whoever so rich you flash a couple of grand with no thought?

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i dont even know how the hell this got this off topic...

PopeBuckfastXVI

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i didnt see that point.....

eudcation is not about the building........... its about learning and in fee paying schools they do have better teachers

well did you go to the school and check it out

or are you/famlily or whoever so rich you flash a couple of grand with no thought?

----
i dont even know how the hell this got this off topic...

It's not off topic, it's part of the '2 tier education' discussion.

Fee paying schools don't have 'better teachers' by default. Some teachers are better than others, fee paying schools don't have any greater amount of 'better teachers' than any other school. They cannot pay their teachers, as teachers are paid by the Government. A teacher in a fee paying school is paid the same as one in a non fee paying school, and both are employed directly by the department of education.

I didn't move for the facilities, and I didn't move to 'flash' money.

turgon

So people should be forbidden from paying fees?

Also, can you quantify your claim that fee paying schools have better teachers?

conchubhar1

no - no one should be forbidden from paying fees
i dont think anyone suggested that?

oh yes, the institute for example gets better results because they are just dillegent workers :rolleyes:

Permabear

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conchubhar1

not in ireland

a hdip or pdge or whatever its called know is needed

Lockstep

Isn't a PHD the qualification to get a job as a university lecturer?

I can see the rationale behind a PHD being grand for third level but not 1st or 2nd; 1st of 2nd requires a much greater degree of pastoral care, 3rd level academic achievement would often be sufficient as most students have no need for a close relationship with the lecturer.

asdasd

is there a european wide equivalent of the h-dip?

P. Breathnach

asdasd wrote: »

is there a european wide equivalent of the h-dip?

Not exactly, because each state makes its own rules. But, so far as I am aware, there is a general pattern that those who want to teach in schools are required to have teaching qualifications in addition to subject qualifications.

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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As I suggested already, they might be considered sufficient. This is not the place to get a good answer to that question.

A Ph.D. is a qualification to teach.

True, in the tradition of academe. That's what the D stands for. We who are old enough to have studied Latin, but not so old as to have forgotten all of it, know the verb doceo (I teach) which is the root of doctor. But that tradition has been largely consigned to the dustbin. PhD programmes in Ireland and in many other places do not involve any professional formation for teaching. Your PhD seems unusual in that respect.

But by demanding the H. Dip. as a prerequisite for secondary teaching in this country, the Irish government artificially restricts who can teach in schools, and deprives many individuals from using their diverse talents and qualifications to contribute to our educational system.

Yes. The intention is to restrict entry to those who seem most suitable, those who have command of subject and of pedagogical technique.

lostexpectation

Joe Higgins MEP: McDonald & Ganley finished!

oscarBravo

makl wrote: »

numbered ur posts cos cant do tha quote thing. sorry overlooked them cos agreed wit most of em

Can I politely request that when you participate in discussions here, you type out words in full and avoid using txtspk abbreviations? It makes your posts hard to read. Thanks.

To everyone: the discussion about who should be allowed to teach is fascinating, but off-topic.

P. Breathnach

oscarBravo wrote: »

... To everyone: the discussion about who should be allowed to teach is fascinating, but off-topic.

Are we not all trying to teach one another?

turgon

So to swing this teaching discussion back to the topic of Joe Higgins socialist policies. I imagine DF's solution would be that each individual school sets it own criteria for who can and cannot teach. The parents, when deciding which schools to send their kids, can examine the criteria by which the teachers were selected, and in fact see their qualification (and scores). So I could send my kid up to ulster to get taught by doctors of English.

This, I imagine, would be against Higgins' policies, which are generally state centred with the exact same thing for everything, and no choice (because remember, Joe is never wrong).

So what would the liberal schooling system mean. Probably that more qualified teachers would get paid more because the best schools would want them. These schools could in turn charge more per pupil.

P. Breathnach

turgon wrote: »

... because remember, Joe is never wrong ...

Neither is donegalfella.

For most of us, the truth lies somewhere between the extremes that might be marked by those two individuals. That allows us a great deal of space.