Uncredited photo in Hot Press

mishima

Hey,

I just thought I'd ask here as I'm sure there are a fair few who know about the legalities of this.

A friend asked me to send him some photos of his band that I took at a gig a while back as Hot Press were interviewing him for a feature. I did this and they used one of them but didn't credit me.

Could I send them an invoice for this or would I have a leg to stand on seeing as I willingly gave the photo to my friend?

Cheers!

melekalikimaka

thats a toughie...

Rb

I presume, since you gave them under the knowledge that they may well be used, that you don't have much of an option.

Unless you explicitly stated they were to contact you if they wanted to use one, I think it would be seen as you giving a freebie.

As Melekalikimaka said above...tough one.

Ballyman

Doesn't matter if they credited you or not. This is normal, especially when you haven't been comissioned by them.

Speak to your friend about the photo and find out what details he gave to Hot Press when he gave them the photo. You should probably invoice them anyway but as you didn't give them the photo directly it might make it a little difficult to get paid. Ring them and ask to speak to the guy who wrote the article. Ask him where do you send the invoice and see what he says.

tricky D

You took the photos so you own the copyright. There is no contract between you and them and no permission was given by you. Your friend is not relevant, you are the holder and only you can give permission. Invoice them.

sheesh

give out to the friend that is in the band for not giving you credit. in future watermark your own work. you could always try invoicing the publication as while you handed over the images you did not hand over copyright. It is still in the strictest sense your image. the worst they do can refuse or give you cash .

What would bug me about it is you gave them the images for free and they didn't bother giving you the nod when it came to giving you a chance to have you name published with an article.

Also ask hot press if they will link to your photo album.

In kerry we tell people like that the following words 'you'll have a straw in your arse before you get another picture out of me!'

tradition dictates that it should be shouted across a crowded the street at them.

unfortunately you will probably just have to put it down to experience

charybdis

tricky D wrote: »

You took the photos so you own the copyright. There is no contract between you and them and no permission was given by you. Your friend is not relevant, you are the holder and only you can give permission. Invoice them.

No.

I presume you don't know the terms under which the image was provided to the magazine by your friend. It sounds like you gave your friend free license to use the image without terms.

You aren't really in a position to begin making demands of Hot Press. The terms of use of your image by the magazine are dictated by their agreement with your friend, if he exceeded his authority and granted them license for use beyond what you'd agreed with him, he is at fault.

Invoice your friend.

tricky D

Easier proof-wise to bypass an unauthorised agent and go straight for the explicit beneficiary.

Rb

tricky D wrote: »

Easier proof-wise to bypass an unauthorised agent and go straight for the explicit beneficiary.

In the eyes of Hotpress he was an authorised agent.

He got the photos and did the negotiations, the friend/agent should have brought up pricing or crediting at the time or not released the photos until they had contacted the photographer.

shepthedog

This seems pretty straight forward.. He asked you for the photos and you knew he was giving them to Hot Press? Did you not discuss with him at the time if he was going to pay you? I would assume he gave them to Hot Press to supplement the interview and did not mention the issue of payment or credit..

BrianD

tricky D wrote: »

You took the photos so you own the copyright. There is no contract between you and them and no permission was given by you. Your friend is not relevant, you are the holder and only you can give permission. Invoice them.

Wrong! he should invoice his friend in the band. If the band were interviewed by the magazine and they asked for a photo, it would be assumed that the photo supplied was part of a press kit and free to use for publicity purposes. It would be normal for a band to commission and pay a photographer for publicity shots. Magazines don't normally credit photos unless its part of a specific agreement.

The OP should have established the usage of the photos before giving them to the band member.

CabanSail

I think that he probably gave them the photo to use, so they were under the impression that this was a Publicity Photo the band owned.

I would be having words with the band. I doubt they would have such a lax attitude to the copyright of their music & would at least insist on being credited for it use. Why should they treat your work any differently?

mishima

Thanks everyone for your replies. I appreciate all the feedback. I still haven't decided what to do.
If anything comes of this I'll keep you posted.

Thanks once more!

Reoil

Mishima, it's very simple. The same thing happened to me.
When you gave the photo to your friend, you effectively gave away the image. You cannot give the image to your friend, then charge the magazine.

The magazine asked the band for an image. They didn't ask a photographer to take a photo. Loads of bands have a "press pack", with high res images for anybody to use. The band pay the photographer, then they give the images for free. That's how it works.

If you wanted to make money from this, you should have charged the band for the shoot.
You can't send the magazine anything. If you do, they have every right to ignore it.

mrboswell

charybdis wrote: »

No.

I presume you don't know the terms under which the image was provided to the magazine by your friend. It sounds like you gave your friend free license to use the image without terms.

You aren't really in a position to begin making demands of Hot Press. The terms of use of your image by the magazine are dictated by their agreement with your friend, if he exceeded his authority and granted them license for use beyond what you'd agreed with him, he is at fault.

Invoice your friend.

BrianD wrote: »

Wrong! he should invoice his friend in the band. If the band were interviewed by the magazine and they asked for a photo, it would be assumed that the photo supplied was part of a press kit and free to use for publicity purposes. It would be normal for a band to commission and pay a photographer for publicity shots. Magazines don't normally credit photos unless its part of a specific agreement.

The OP should have established the usage of the photos before giving them to the band member.

Both above are correct. This has come up before and you need to be very careful who you give images to.

melekalikimaka wrote: »

thats a toughie...

It is a toughie as you don't want to fall out with your friend but did you specify the use with your friend?

I'd imaging if you were to chase it up that you wouldn't get anywhere - with both parties...

padocon

I thought it was the law to credit a photographer no matter what!
No?

melekalikimaka

padocon wrote: »

I thought it was the law to credit a photographer no matter what!
No?

not at all. i think its very much discressionary once you give up the copyright

padocon

melekalikimaka wrote: »

not at all. i think its very much discressionary once you give up the copyright

Oh, I see. But OP didn't give the coppyright!

melekalikimaka

padocon wrote: »

Oh, I see. But OP didn't give the coppyright!

well if was given to the friend... it kinda seems like it was, through not stipulating useage rights... he can either accept that the photo was a press pack jobbie and free for all, or kick up a ruckus and land the mate in it

charybdis

padocon wrote: »

I thought it was the law to credit a photographer no matter what!
No?

Have you ever seen a newspaper, or any published image?

melekalikimaka wrote: »

not at all. i think its very much discressionary once you give up the copyright

padocon wrote: »

Oh, I see. But OP didn't give the coppyright!

You can't "give" copyright, copyright gives the creator of an original work the right to control how it is used.

melekalikimaka wrote: »

well if was given to the friend... it kinda seems like it was, through not stipulating useage rights... he can either accept that the photo was a press pack jobbie and free for all, or kick up a ruckus and land the mate in it

There are two licensing arrangements: the arrangement between the photographer and his friend, and the arrangement between the friend and the magazine. I'm fairly sure the conditions of use in the arrangement between the friend and magazine have been adhered to. If there is an issue, it is between the photographer and his friend; either the conditions of use were not made clear, or the friend is in breach of contract. The photographer has no recourse against the magazine.

AnCatDubh

Although its not stated, I think its highly plausible that the 'friend' may have inadvertently not asked that the photographer be credited. If they explicitly did then perhaps next issue of Hot Press they might do a reprint with credit as agreed.

It would have been no harm for hot press when taking receipt of the image to ask the 'friend' if they had the usage rights to the image but I tend to agree, that you need to be very clear about what basis you are passing over an image. It's so much easier if you have established the usage conditions before anything is published.

I don't think i'd fancy my chances pursuing a legal action based on the sequence of events outlined in this thread. It is different if a paper/magazine uses your image having picked it up through nefarious means (lifting off the web for instance). I'm aware of such a case with an Irish tabloid and once ownership was proved they forked up ( a nice little sum too if I recall correctly ).

I also think that if you look at it rationally - your issue is with your friend. Hot Press (from what we can tell given the brief detail posted) are presumably operating on the basis of good faith with your 'friends' band. You in turn were operating in good faith with your 'friend'. The point where it all goes wrong is the 'friend' i'm afraid.

While I have the utmost of sympathy for you I would suggest that there may also be a little naivety on your part to have parted with your works without stating in unequivocal terms your expectations should publication be transpiring - of course you can now jump in with it being covered by a 20 page contract and everything i'll have posted will probably be incorrect.

Just thinking about it from a minute - if you were to sue Hot Press, meh which might be open to you, I presume they would as a matter of course counter sue your 'friend' and therein appears to be the weakest link in all of this.

Any chance your friend or you might contact them, explain the 'misunderstanding' around the rights of the image and perhaps seek that they would republish just the image with accreditation. They might just be amenable to something like that.

Good luck with it anyhow.

ValueInIreland

The Magazine would have assume that the Image(s) was a publicity shot so it is fair to say that they would not expect to pay to use an image. My point really is what did you do to protect your work? In the "Old days" you should have given your friend a print and put your copyright stamp on the back of it. Now your details and any terms and conditons need to be embedded in the FILE INFO / IPTC field in Photoshop (Other packages support this also). This information along with a caption is critical when submitting your images to any publication (I know this was never the intention here). It's good practice to include this information on any image you Send / Post / Give!
If you put your self in the Magazine shoes- how would you know who to credit if the information was not available??

melekalikimaka

You can't "give" copyright, copyright gives the creator of an original work the right to control how it is used.



you can transfter copyright I thought.

the photographer...SHOULD have been contacted prior to print, but due to vague agreement with band... nada really he can do imo

padocon

charybdis wrote: »

Have you ever seen a newspaper, or any published image?

In the newspaper the name of the photographer is beside the photo also in magazines. If a photographer works for a paper then maybe they have come to an agreement not to credit the photographer. I have seen pictures where the photographer has not been credited.

melekalikimaka wrote: »

well if was given to the friend... it kinda seems like it was, through not stipulating useage rights... he can either accept that the photo was a press pack jobbie and free for all, or kick up a ruckus and land the mate in it

Yea, kind of messy.


When ever some one asks me for a picture I say they are not to be used commercially ect