Where will the jews go if Hamas wins?

Hamsey

Is the Hamas policy to drive the Jews in Palestine into the sea? If Hamas wins the next Gaza-Israel war who will give the Jews refuge?

Or are Hamas going to allow Jews full citizenship in a united Palestine?

jank

Probably same place as the palestines are now.

A Primal Nut

As far as I know; they don't want to reclaim everything Isreal took in 1948, just everything granted since then, in particular what are currently known as the settlements, (West Bank and Gaza Strip in particular; this land has being owned by Isreal since 1967) and also for Isreal to stop expanding their settlements. East Jerusalem is particularly important to Palestinians. So the city may well be split in two.

Once there is enough room for Palestinians to live happily (if thats possible) the situation should be resolved in theory, although in practice it will be more compicated, mainly by religion and what will happen to shared holy sites.

Really can't see power sharing ever working there - there is not enough co-operation between ordinary Jews and Muslims to lay the groundwork.

tolosenc

Hamsey wrote: »

If Hamas wins the next Gaza-Israel war

That's a rather large 'if'.

Hamsey

As the title says Hamas only has to win once. I'm thinking of a Zimbabwe or South Africa scenario.

Jews have been driven out of large part of the Middle East. Those driven out have gone to Israel. But what will happen when Hamas wins? Will Jews have full citizenship rights? In which case they will outvote the rest of the population of a united Palestine.

Or will they, at best, be reduced to second class status or, at worst, be driven out - if they can find somewhere to go?

Will The USA take in 5 million Jews?

How many would Ireland be willing to take?

Or will it be the 1930s all over again with every nation saying not us!

jhegarty

Hamsey wrote: »

Or will it be the 1930s all over again with every nation saying not us!

I am 100% sure it would be the 30's all over again. We would all ring our hands say something needs to be done.

Hamsey

Hamsey wrote: »

As the title says Hamas only has to win once. I'm thinking of a Zimbabwe or South Africa scenario.

Jews have been driven out of large part of the Middle East. Those driven out have gone to Israel. But what will happen when Hamas wins? Will Jews have full citizenship rights? In which case they will outvote the rest of the population of a united Palestine.

Or will they, at best, be reduced to second class status or, at worst, be driven out - if they can find somewhere to go?

Just like the original residents they kicked out of a country because they felt like it?

Or will it be the 1930s all over again with every nation saying not us!

Well I'd certainly say not us if they think it's all cool to expand, try to take over the entire landmass and throw white phosphorus at anyone they don't like who was originally living there.

ynotdu

If three Arab nations had not invaded the State of Israel in the six day war,Israel would be a much smaller country, guess those who think Jewish people should have no homeland would like that!

I am an Irish born catholic(non practising)

Study the history before condemning Israels right to exist.

ex Israeli pm menachaun Begin was a wanted man on posters in palestine.
guess who wanted him? England!

The oppressed become the oppressors anybody whoever cheered the death of an English soldier in Ireland should remember that.

Israel will exist as long as it suits the west!

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Probably same place as the palestines are now.

I say Miami would be more likely though....

Sand

Im surprised - you guys are assuming that if Hamas wins there will be a significant population of survivors.

Hagar

I love the way the oppressor always assumes that oppressed will treat them the same if they could. Fear of retribution must be a terrible thing.

Just because the Palestinians have been treated as vermin who can say that Hamas are not above treating the Jews as equals?

anonymous_joe

Hagar wrote: »

I love the way the oppressor always assumes that oppressed will treat them the same if they could. Fear of retribution must be a terrible thing.

Just because the Palestinians have been treated as vermin who can say that Hamas are not above treating the Jews as equals?

The whole 'drive them into the sea' ethos is a clue.

I'd assume if Hamas won, the Holocaust II would ensue. Only it wouldn't, because Israel would nuke the fcuk out of Palestine if they were losing.

Sand

I love the way the oppressor always assumes that oppressed will treat them the same if they could. Fear of retribution must be a terrible thing.

Just because the Palestinians have been treated as vermin who can say that Hamas are not above treating the Jews as equals?

Well:

A) the Israeli Jewish population has good reason to never allow themselves to become oppressed again.

Hamas are a terrorist organisation, carrying out completely indiscriminate attacks on civillian targets. They breed hatred of Jewish people to levels unheard of since the 1930s.

C) Speaking of the 1930s, many people, including Jews themselves, assumed the fears of a Nazi Germany were overstated - he was just playing for the crowd. It couldnt get that bad. It did though.

So its not so unreasonable to assume theyre wont be too many Jewish survivors of a Hamas victory. Oh I wouldnt assume Hamas would treat Israeli Jews much the same as Israel treats Palestinians. Id assume they would treat them much worse. Mass murder on an industrial scale as opposed to stealing their property and dumping them in refugee camps.

What reason do you have, apart from naive hope itself, that Hamas wouldnt massacre the Jewish population of Israel given that they already unleash every means to hand to kill any and every Israeli Jew they can?

Hagar

Sand wrote: »

C) Speaking of the 1930s...

Where did the Palestinians live then and were they "terrorising" the Jews before they were thrown out of the homes and lands ?

Sand

I like your style Hagar. Try to ignore your point has been shown to be totally naive. Instead sieze on 4 words in the entire post, not even a full sentence and try make some killer point with that.

Except its still a terrible point. To the historymobile!

There was actually a consistent and continual series of violence between the Arabs and Jewish population. 1921, 1929 and 1936-39 are just the highlights of when the violence went beyond routine intimidation and minor attacks and ramped up into pogroms and out and out blood on the streets - on all sides. I would argue that Palestinian Arabs being the majority tended to rely on amateur hour mobs descending on Jewish communities or holy sites for murder/beatings/descration and the Jewish population tending to be smaller tended to go for paramilitary/terrorist groups. Which was more moral? I'll leave that to someone who cares.

If you want to note just how ****ing stupid the whole "We were here first!!!!" argument is look at the 1929 Hebron Massacre. 67 innocent people murdered by a mob, the property of an entire historical community siezed and they were driven into exile as refugees. They were the oppressed, right Hagar? After the 1967 war, they recovered their property in Hebron from those who had stolen it. Are they still the oppressed, now restored? Or are they the evil oppressors now? Cos Im curious. This whole evil oppressor/virtuous oppressed view of the world must be fascinating given the convolutions required to keep it consistent.

So yeah, it was a real era of enlightenment prior to the establishment of Israel. Why oh why would Jewish Israelis even dream they would be mistreated under Hamas? Why wouldnt they want to go back to that golden age when Jew and Muslim lived together in peace and harmony?

'On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a[n Arab] police constable named Issa Sheriff from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him.'[21]

Oh....right.

TL;DR - The Palestinians lived in Transjordan/British Mandate of Palestine. Yes, they did "terrorise" their Jewish neighbours. Yes, Jewish plans for a return to their ancestral home undoubtedly created conflict with those currently living in that home. No, it was not a utopia where every man was free and equal regardless of race, creed or colour. There was no golden age. Stop pretending.

meditraitor

Hamsey wrote: »

Is the Hamas policy to drive the Jews in Palestine into the sea? If Hamas wins the next Gaza-Israel war who will give the Jews refuge?

Or are Hamas going to allow Jews full citizenship in a united Palestine?

Hamas will never defeat Isreal so this question is moot although I suspect the reason for starting this thread was to use hypothesis to demonise an already tortured people.

Rubbish post

Hagar

Maybe I am a bit naive. Quite probably you know 20 times more than I do about the Palestinian situation. I'll concede that in an instant if it makes you happy.

I do know the current conflict predates the artificial founding of the current State of Israel by the occupying colonial powers of the time. How much of that conflict was as a result of the colonisation and how much was deep rooted animosity between arabs and jews I don't know. I don't think anyone does.

I know the handing over, by a UK/US agreement, of the country to the jews was a disaster . Guilt over not doing anything about the Holocaust is what the state of Isreal is founded upon. Not that WASP US was ever over fond of the jews anyway. There is a possibility that the oh so holy US wanted the jews out of the US just as much as Hitler wanted them gone from Germany. They just found a cleverer way to get rid of them. "Look we just made you a country called Isreal, why don't you all go there, here's a free ticket."

The founding of a totally jewish state in a mixed arabic /jewish land was a political disaster. The subsequent atrocities visited upon the Plaestinians by their new masters are the price being paid for that disaster. If Isreal wasn't being bolstered by the US who use Isreal as a jump off point for its military in the Middle East they would not last 12 months either economically or politically.

My naive 2c.

anonymous_joe

Hagar wrote: »

Maybe I am a bit naive. Quite probably you know 20 times more than I do about the Palestinian situation. I'll concede that in an instant if it makes you happy.

I do know the current conflict predates the artificial founding of the current State of Israel by the occupying colonial powers of the time. How much of that conflict was as a result of the colonisation and how much was deep rooted animosity between arabs and jews I don't know. I don't think anyone does.

I know the handing over, by a UK/US agreement, of the country to the jews was a disaster . Guilt over not doing anything about the Holocaust is what the state of Isreal is founded upon. Not that WASP US was ever over fond of the jews anyway. There is a possibility that the oh so holy US wanted the jews out of the US just as much as Hitler wanted them gone from Germany. They just found a cleverer way to get rid of them. "Look we just made you a country called Isreal, why don't you all go there, here's a free ticket."

The founding of a totally jewish state in a mixed arabic /jewish land was a political disaster. The subsequent atrocities visited upon the Plaestinians by their new masters are the price being paid for that disaster. If Isreal wasn't being bolstered by the US who use Isreal as a jump off point for its military in the Middle East they would not last 12 months either economically or politically.

My naive 2c.

In fairness the Israelis managed to hold off the Arabs in 46 (or was it 47 or whatever), 67 and the Yom Kippur War.

That in itself is part of the problem - why would you set up a nation in the midst of their enemies? Of course it was going to cause trouble.

Both sides hate each other to a degree, and I'd surmise (sadly) that Hamas would do awful things if they won.

jank

Just to put it out there. Why would one not assume that if Isreal was not held back by the US that they would go on a "cleaning up job" in the west bank and Gaza. There job done!

Mahatma coat

on the topic of Naievity

Israel instigated the 6 day war, both sides were blustering and building up to the offensive, but the first shots were fired by Israel at an Egyptian air base, practicaly wiping out Egyptian air power for the first battles.

course you probably knew that

DTrotter

It won't matter as we will the enter the end times, I welcome my beast overlord.

Black Swan

Hamsey wrote: »

Where will the jews go if Hamas wins?

Er... you mean the Israelis?

Joycey

Sand wrote: »

Well:

A) the Israeli Jewish population has good reason to never allow themselves to become oppressed again.

Well if that logic holds then the Palestinians have good reason to no longer allow themselves to be oppressed -> popular support for an "extremist" organisation -> Hamas.

Hamas are a terrorist organisation, carrying out completely indiscriminate attacks on civillian targets.

As are the Isreali state, except on a larger scale and (perhaps) slightly less indiscriminately.

They breed hatred of Jewish people to levels unheard of since the 1930s.

I dont condone or defend racist/anti-semiticism, however I can understand and identify with the influences which have brought about indefencible hatred, not the hatred itself.

So its not so unreasonable to assume theyre wont be too many Jewish survivors of a Hamas victory.

Hamas cant "win", any more then can Isreal, as both parties' "winning" terms exist at the moment. The original question is patently rediculous, hence my not having looked twice at the thread until now.

Oh I wouldnt assume Hamas would treat Israeli Jews much the same as Israel treats Palestinians. Id assume they would treat them much worse.

You are right, they probably would. Thankfully they will never be in a position to make a reality any of the horrific scenarios which you have outlined. Disagreement with the most reactionary and illegitimate concerns within a movement, especially with the influences which give rise to such sentiment being so apparently born out of tremendous suffering, does not constitute a valid reason to denounce the people who take part in the movement.

The only solution, bar outright genocide of one side or the other (which hopefully will never happen, but if it did it seems more likely that Isreal will be wiping out the Palestinians rather then vice versa), is a two-state solution. A more productive debate would be one which concerned itself with possible ways to make this a reality, rather then absurd, sensationalist hypothetical questions regarding a scenario nobody wants to see realised.

Sand

Well if that logic holds then the Palestinians have good reason to no longer allow themselves to be oppressed -> popular support for an "extremist" organisation -> Hamas.

Yes?

As are the Isreali state, except on a larger scale and (perhaps) slightly less indiscriminately.

Grand?

I dont condone or defend racist/anti-semiticism, however I can understand and identify with the influences which have brought about indefencible hatred, not the hatred itself.

So?

Hamas cant "win", any more then can Isreal, as both parties' "winning" terms exist at the moment. The original question is patently rediculous, hence my not having looked twice at the thread until now.

There was a "Joycey's posts" shaped hole in my life until you relented and consented to make some fairly banal comments. My thanks.

You are right, they probably would. Thankfully they will never be in a position to make a reality any of the horrific scenarios which you have outlined.

So long as the IDF remains capable of defending Israel, yes Hamas can never win. Perhaps this explains why Israel is such a shower of bastards to Hamas and the Palestinians in general.

The Saint

Jesus, what a stupid thread. It's like hypothisizing about what would happen if Antarctic penguins defeated the US in a war. :rolleyes:

Joycey

The Saint wrote: »

Jesus, what a stupid thread. It's like hypothisizing about what would happen if Antarctic penguins defeated the US in a war. :rolleyes:

But as Sand has just pointed out for us, it is only through the vigilence of the US army and their heroic efforts in defending their populace that the penguins are not mercilessly rampaging all over the States right now.

Joycey

Sand wrote: »

Yes?

Then are we in agreement that the Palestinians' efforts towards an end to their opression are legitimate, and any attempts to maintain that opression (by Isreal) are illegitimate?

Grand?

No, not grand, I dont support "terrorism" (whatever that means). Violence needs to be justified, and I dont believe the Isreali state has exhausted their alternatives in preventing violence being done to them through non-violent means. Hence my opposition to Isreali state violence.

So?

So I can understand Hamas' popularity and the Palestinian popular support for a party which wants to wipe Isreal off the map. I dont agree with that desire, but dont believe that the Palestinian people should be persecuted for a desire to hurt their oppressors, a completely understandable and arguably legitimate desire.

There was a "Joycey's posts" shaped hole in my life until you relented and consented to make some fairly banal comments. My thanks.

Apologies for the pretentious tone. Just airing my opinion of the original question.

So long as the IDF remains capable of defending Israel, yes Hamas can never win.

Until both sides agree to negociate and make concessions, neither can "win". So what I take to be your support for Isreal hardline retaliation to Hamas' violence I see as being completely misdirected, unless of course you wish to see more suffering and death on both sides.

Perhaps this explains why Israel is such a shower of bastards to Hamas and the Palestinians in general.

I think this more serves as an attempt at justifying Isreali violence, I dont believe it explains it at any more then at a surface level. And it most definitely doesnt make it OK.

bobbyjoe

Israel have Nukes its not going anywhere unless it takes half the middle east with it.

Sand

Then are we in agreement that the Palestinians' efforts towards an end to their opression are legitimate, and any attempts to maintain that opression (by Isreal) are illegitimate?

No, I just dont see whats extraordinary about your statement on Hamas support. The Palestinians support Hamas because theyre filled with hatred and bitterness and want to murder all Jews they can. This isnt news.

No, not grand, I dont support "terrorism" (whatever that means). Violence needs to be justified, and I dont believe the Isreali state has exhausted their alternatives in preventing violence being done to them through non-violent means. Hence my opposition to Isreali state violence.

I am disinterested in this tangent.

So I can understand Hamas' popularity and the Palestinian popular support for a party which wants to wipe Isreal off the map. I dont agree with that desire, but dont believe that the Palestinian people should be persecuted for a desire to hurt their oppressors, a completely understandable and arguably legitimate desire.

So what? Great, the Palestinians dont have much reason to love the Israelis. The Israelis dont have much reason to love the Palestinians. See below:

'On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a[n Arab] police constable named Issa Sheriff from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him.'

So what I take to be your support for Isreal hardline retaliation to Hamas' violence I see as being completely misdirected, unless of course you wish to see more suffering and death on both sides.

Its a virtuous circle. Well, it is to an objective viewer. But youre not objective.

I think this more serves as an attempt at justifying Isreali violence, I dont believe it explains it at any more then at a surface level. And it most definitely doesnt make it OK.

Hmm, you can "understand" Hamas without supporting it. Surely you ought to be able to do the same for Israeli motivations and reasoning...I mean, you only "understand" Hamas, right?

ynotdu

It is only a matter of of when and how.
depressing reading this thread overall.
as each atrocity got worse by both sides,so too did their political leadership.how far back in history should We go?People of the Jewish faith been cast out in biblical times?

Palestions killing Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics or Golda Mayers targeted response to kill only those who organised Munich?(before She died she regretted what she ordered because of the innocent one killed during that operation,Oh and lets not forget the (almost)bloodless raid on Entebbee,as a purely military operation it was Spectaculor sucess.

Was it idiotic of the Palestinions to elect Hamas when they had the alternative of electing a govt more acceptable to their *enemies*

Was it idiotic of the Israelies to elect a man Who turned the blind eye to the slaughter in an Israeli *protected*camp leaving every woman and child disembowelled?

Sample Questions,thousands could be asked,very few ever get answered.

It is sad to see so many spouting hatred on a site ending in .ie when it comes to what looks like an impossible divide.

800 Years still seems to have left many thinking a *winner* can emerge from this type of conflict.

Jaw jaw not war war.

Joycey

Sand wrote: »

No, I just dont see whats extraordinary about your statement on Hamas support. The Palestinians support Hamas because theyre filled with hatred and bitterness and want to murder all Jews they can. This isnt news.

No, they support them for several reasons, the following are almost definitely not a comprehensive list:
1. Hamas operate a massive propaganda/recruitment campaign
2. Hamas represent a mainstream force who are willing to give voice to the extreme anti-Isreali sentiment in Palestine
3. In times of hardship people tend towards more extreme groups. Hence the move away towards the IRA when things started to get better in the North.
4. I believe most Palestinians want peace rather then the slaughter of Isreali's, perhaps this makes me gullible but if Hamas are democratically elected leaders then no one has any right to usurp them.

I am disinterested in this tangent.

Its extremely relevant. I see support for Hamas as emerging directly from the oppression carried out by the Isreali state. Any action taken in reprisal against ones opressor is argueably legitimate; if you conceed that the Isreali state are the opressors of the Palestinian people then you also conceed that Hamas are justified in responding in like terms to, and attempting to alleviate the opression.

So what? Great, the Palestinians dont have much reason to love the Israelis. The Israelis dont have much reason to love the Palestinians. See below:
'On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a[n Arab] police constable named Issa Sheriff from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him.'

Whats your point? I never said that Hamas didnt commit atrosities, nor that I defend their violent actions against civilians. Even were it the case that Hamas were actually the ones who perpetrated the first attacks which led up to the invasion at the start of the year, I see Isreali retaliation as completely unjustified on two counts:
1. The vastly disproportional level of "retaliation" which took place. Casualties were something like 15-1 the last time I checked (months ago). Even if the motto "an eye for an eye" were an acceptable way to behave the Isrealis far overstepped what might have been legitimate.
2. The more significant point in my view: unless Isreal had demonstrated to the international community that they had exhausted every possible non-violent response to Hamas rocket attacks, and that violent reprisals were the only method of alleviating those attacks, they were not justified in entering Palestinian land and causing civilian deaths.

Its a virtuous circle. Well, it is to an objective viewer. But youre not objective.

A vicious circle?

And nor are you. Being "objective" implies being detatched, disinterested. A responsibility accords to me for an event if that event was preventable by me. To the extent that I could have done something to prevent civilian death to Palestinians by the IDF, I am responsible. To say that I am not would be an abnegation of the responsibility which accords to me by virtue of my relatively powerful position in society (a white middle class male in a Western Democracy). To maintain that one can be "nuetral" or "objective" when one has this power is a fallacy.

Hmm, you can "understand" Hamas without supporting it. Surely you ought to be able to do the same for Israeli motivations and reasoning...I mean, you only "understand" Hamas, right?

Perhaps "understand" was the wrong word. Perhaps to say that from my interpretation of events in Isreal/Palestine, I sympathise with the plight of the Palestinian people, and also with Isreali civilians who are hurt or suffer loss as a result of the conflict. The fact that the violence done to civilian populations is so vastly disproportional results in my sympathising far more with the Palestinians then the Isrealis, your absolutely right.

I sympathise with the civilians on either side, I do not sympathise with either government. Even were I to grant that Isreali hard-line actions were a result of a genuine belief that that was the only reason to protect the people of Isreal, my recognition that such a belief is absolutely ludicrous means that I fail to recognise the legitimacy of those actions.