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Where will the jews go if Hamas wins?
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I always find it interesting that Hamas, is way more evil, due to the things they may do, if they had the ability to do so. Basically, one giant what if, where ones wildest fantasies can run wild, and seeing as its a what if, there is no need to actually back anything up.
Strangely, Israel is never judged on the things it does do. They happily used terrorism and ethnic cleansing to create there state and hate Palestinians for no other reason than a accident of birth, which meant they were born the wrong race.
While its true the Palestinian hate the Israeli's, but if the Israeli's were Ferengi from the planet Ferenginar, they would hate them just the same. So I would say they aren't the same as European Anti-semites, as some would like to suggest.0 -
:rolleyes:No, they support them for several reasons,...
Yeah, great. They support them. End of.
I was going to ignore the rest of your "points" ( see the way I took your "extremist" thing...) but **** it, Ive had a few pints and I like a chuckle...1. Hamas operate a massive propaganda/recruitment campaign
Yeah, its called Pallywood. You are probably a victim of it. Google it.2. Hamas represent a mainstream force who are willing to give voice to the extreme anti-Isreali sentiment in Palestine
Mainstream....extreme? Like the KKK on the civil rights movment? They are the extreme.In times of hardship people tend towards more extreme groups. Hence the move away towards the IRA when things started to get better in the North.
LOL OH LOL...Do you follow politics in Northern Ireland at all?I believe most Palestinians want peace rather then the slaughter of Isreali's, perhaps this makes me gullible but if Hamas are democratically elected leaders then no one has any right to usurp them.
I am sure Israel respects the democratic will of the Palestinian people to support an extemist, mass murdering terrorist organisation. I dont see how any of the IDF's actions are inconsistent with respecting the right of the Palestinians to support and identify with terrrorists.Its extremely relevant. I see support for Hamas as emerging directly from the oppression carried out by the Isreali state. Any action taken in reprisal against ones opressor is argueably legitimate; if you conceed that the Isreali state are the opressors of the Palestinian people then you also conceed that Hamas are justified in responding in like terms to, and attempting to alleviate the opression.
Thats why its not relevant.
First, youve picked a year zero and decided to ignore all events prior to that. Your year zero is 1948, or maybe 1967. I dont really care.
I quote again, because it doesnt seem to sink in to the psychosis:'On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a[n Arab] police constable named Issa Sheriff from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him.'
That happened in 19 ****ing 29. Long before the state of Israel or Hamas existed. Who the oppressed and who the oppressor is not ****ing relevant. Back in 1929, the Jews were the oppressed and the Arabs were the oppressor. By your logic, *any* action taken by the oppressed was legitimate....including founding the state of Israel, and casting out the oppressors/Arabs.
Except, oh no wait.. thats not what you meant. And I know its not what you meant, but its what you get when you make stupid generalisations like "Any action taken in reprisal against ones opressor is argueably legitimate; if you conceed that the Isreali state are the opressors of the Palestinian people then you also conceed that Hamas are justified in responding in like terms to, and attempting to alleviate the opression."
Given that the Arabs oppressed the Jews way before the state of Israel even existed in modern times, what does your rather stupid logic have to say about the actions taken *in reprisal* to that oppression?
What it says is that the Palestinians got what was coming to them.
Thats your dumb stupid logic.
Oh you dont like that...Morality doesnt work that way. You cant give some sob story and then say, because I have been wronged I can do whatever the **** I like. The holocaust doesnt give the Jews justification to found Israel. The founding of Israel doesnt give Hamas the right to murder every Jewish person they can. There is no white and black morality in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Bloody retarded oppressed/oppressor morality....:rolleyes:Even were it the case that Hamas were actually the ones who perpetrated the first attacks which led up to the invasion at the start of the year, I see Isreali retaliation as completely unjustified on two counts:
Yeah, lets whip out the history books and figure out who carried out the first attacks to determine blame. Just a question, can we use the Old Testement as a resource?1. The vastly disproportional level of "retaliation" which took place. Casualties were something like 15-1 the last time I checked (months ago). Even if the motto "an eye for an eye" were an acceptable way to behave the Isrealis far overstepped what might have been legitimate.
Oh...disproportionality...
Okay, how many Palestinians are the Israelis allowed to kill in reprisal for one Israeli death...1? 2? 3? Whats the ratio you consider to be proportional? Whats the blood price? Come on..tell me, whats the proportional exchange ratio?
Proportionality...jesus christ...:rolleyes:
This is what people are reduced to...proportionality...2. The more significant point in my view: unless Isreal had demonstrated to the international community that they had exhausted every possible non-violent response to Hamas rocket attacks, and that violent reprisals were the only method of alleviating those attacks, they were not justified in entering Palestinian land and causing civilian deaths.
This is just so Orwellian....seriously, why do you bother with the pretence of thinking about principles. Surely the shorthand for you is Israeli=Oppressor=Bad and Hamas=Oppressed=Good. Lets not waste time going into any more detail than that for your views.
I mean jesus...:rolleyes:A vicious circle?
Virtuous circle, vicious circle...a new freedom fighter/terrorist profound insight I am sure.To the extent that I could have done something to prevent civilian death to Palestinians by the IDF, I am responsible. To say that I am not would be an abnegation of the responsibility which accords to me by virtue of my relatively powerful position in society (a white middle class male in a Western Democracy).
White man's burden....:rolleyes:And nor are you. Being "objective" implies being detatched, disinterested.
We all think were moderate, objective and so on. But I "understand" Hamas about as much as I "understand" the IDF. You go on later on in your post to qualify your "understanding" of Hamas to actually mean "sympathy" with Hamas. Of course, I already knew that. Plenty of people like you and before you have told me they "understand" some terrorist group. What they really mean is they sympathise with them, but they dare not admit that so kudos to you.Perhaps "understand" was the wrong word.
I know, thats why I put " " around it.
Hi Wes, have you got round to thanking posts yet?I always find it interesting that Hamas, is way more evil, due to the things they may do, if they had the ability to do so.
Well, we know that the IDF has the ability to wipe out the Palestinians in a mass genocide. Any yet, they havent done it. Nor do they claim it as a matter of policy to be an objective. So given they dont claim it to be an objective, and havent done it we have to assume they dont want to do it.
On the other hand we have an organisation boasts proudly how its going to wipe out the Jews. An organisation that is so filled with hate that it suicide bombs pizza parlors. Just because it might have Jews in it. Now this organisation hasnt got the power to wipe out the Jews, but to be honest, Im not going to trust them with it either. Between yourself and myself.Strangely, Israel is never judged on the things it does do. They happily used terrorism and ethnic cleansing to create there state and hate Palestinians for no other reason than a accident of birth, which meant they were born the wrong race.
Hebron 1929: terrorism, ethnic cleansing, hate for no other reason than an accident of birth....all before the existence of Israel. Back in the golden age of the British Mandate of Palestine...'On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a[n Arab] police constable named Issa Sheriff from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him.'While its true the Palestinian hate the Israeli's, but if the Israeli's were Ferengi from the planet Ferenginar, they would hate them just the same. So I would say they aren't the same as European Anti-semites, as some would like to suggest.
Really? There was no Israel in 1929 but the Arabs of the time still seemed to share the objectives of Hamas - murder the Jews where ever the could.0 -
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Hi Wes, have you got round to thanking posts yet?
**EDIT**
Odd that your posting in Israel/Palestine thread and defending your side to the hilt. If I remember correctly, you complained about people doing exactly that in several other Israel/Palestine threads. So I am very surprised to see you doing exactly that in this one.
**END EDIT**Well, we know that the IDF has the ability to wipe out the Palestinians in a mass genocide. Any yet, they havent done it. Nor do they claim it as a matter of policy to be an objective. So given they dont claim it to be an objective, and havent done it we have to assume they dont want to do it.
So the IDF haven't tried to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth. How kind of them. The Taliban didn't wipe out every ethnic minority in Afghanistan, when they were in power and they were well capable of doing so as well. So using your logic, they must be lovely guys, as they didn't engage in genocide, even when they could.
Of course, if Israel tried to wipe them out they would use US support right off the bat and they may even have to stop Israel. So lets not pretend Israel hands are completely untied here.
What we do have is massive murderous rampages. Sure they haven't killed all the Palestinians, which apparently excuses there murderous violence for some odd reason.
Also, the Israeli's have made all kinds of threat towards the Palestinians. Hell, the deputy defense Minister even threatened them with a Holocaust at one point. Israel has made plenty of threats concerning there murderous intention towards the Palestinians are presently starving 1.5 million people in a disgusting act of state terror, which is of course excused by Israel's apologists. Strange how Hamas's violence is only ever wrong.On the other hand we have an organisation boasts proudly how its going to wipe out the Jews. An organisation that is so filled with hate that it suicide bombs pizza parlors. Just because it might have Jews in it. Now this organisation hasnt got the power to wipe out the Jews, but to be honest, Im not going to trust them with it either. Between yourself and myself.
Yet, you trust a pack of racists who are so filled with hate that they starve 1.5 million people in a act of state terrorism (and drop white phosphorus on there heads, but I guess that ok, as they didn't use a nuclear bomb or something)? Go figure, starving 1.5 million people and people will still continue to think your trust worthy. How very odd.
You really have to be kidding me. Hamas are scum, but then so are the Israeli government, who quite frankly shown themselves to be a murderous shower of racists, with plenty of apologists who will excuse there mindless murderous mayhem for some bizarre reason, all the while claiming some obscene moral high ground, when no such high ground exists in this conflict. The lunatics are running the asylum here.
**EDIT**
Also, I just checked my history book and apparently Hamas didn't even exist until 1987, and didn't gain any power until pretty recently. Which came after decades of Israeli murderous violence against the Palestinians.
So back in the late 1800's, when Zionist decided they need to kick out Palestinians, was that Hamas's fault?!?
**END EDIT**Hebron 1929: terrorism, ethnic cleansing, hate for no other reason than an accident of birth....all before the existence of Israel. Back in the golden age of the British Mandate of Palestine...
Ha, ha, ha Sand. You know damn well that Zionists intended to drive the Palestinians out of there homes back as early as the late 1800's. So please explain to me, are the Palestinian suppose to roll over and die for a group of invaders?
Ever heard of the Iron Wall? Its something that Zionists came up with in the 1920's, where basically they would use violence to sort out all there problems. Avi Shalaims book "The Iron Wall", will give you a lot more detail.Really? There was no Israel in 1929 but the Arabs of the time still seemed to share the objectives of Hamas - murder the Jews where ever the could.
You see, Zionism existed. Zionism, is what caused the conflict. A racist ideology, which wanted to created a Jewish state in Palestine, and involved ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. Oddly, the indigenous Palestinian, were against this and defended themselves, which apparently make them evil or something for some reason.
Here a wonderful quote from a article by Benny Morris (a hard core Zionists btw) in the Guardian:From the Guardian.co.uk:
A new exodus for the Middle East?
As early as 1895, Theodor Herzl, the prophet and founder of Zionism, wrote in his diary in anticipation of the establishment of the Jewish state: "We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country ... The removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
So, lets no pretend that the Zionists were some peace loving hippies. They were colonial aggressor's pure and simple. To pretend otherwise is absurd nonsense.
Why you do pretend Zionism didn't exist at this point in time? It is well known what Zionists intended to do to the Palestinians and they achieved there racists aim in 1948, but back in 1929, they were very much engaged in the colonial Zionist project at this point. So again, the Palestinians are apparently expected to roll over and die to make way for Zionist invaders?0 -
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I recently read his book on the conflict and mostly agree with him. The suggestions he make to ending the conflict, should be heeded by all sides and the Geneva Initiative that he supports is very much a model for a fair solution for all involved.0 -
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I was watching TV last night and a question that went into room 101 (that boyzone guy keating)was
If you were a biscut what biscut would you be?
Much more valid question than the one posed by the OP0 -
Wes, quick question:
How were Zionist objectives in the late 1800s and early 20th century different from Palestinian objectives today?0 -
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Wes, quick question:
How were Zionist objectives in the late 1800s and early 20th century different from Palestinian objectives today?
You think that what the Zionists have been doing since the late 1800's has stopped? Its still ongoing. They haven't quite let go of the whole "Greater Israel" thing just yet.
Having said that, Hamas are a fractured mirror image of Zionism. The only difference is that Hamas only exist, because of Zionism (they are basically the Nation of Islam to Israel's KKK for example, both have similar goals) and that they aren't foreign colonists, but rather the indigenous population. Regardless, they are no better than one another, which is something I have said above.0 -
Having said that, Hamas are a fractured mirror image of Zionism. The only difference is that Hamas only exist, because of Zionism (they are basically the Nation of Islam to Israel's KKK for example, both have similar goals) and that they aren't foreign colonists, but rather the indigenous population. Regardless, they are no better than one another, which is something I have said above.
So why do you support Hamas Zionism over Israeli Zionism given they are no better than each other?0 -
So why do you support Hamas Zionism over Israeli Zionism given they are no better than each other?
I don't support either and I have in fact condemned Hamas numerous times.
I, also echoed my support for the Geneva Initiative in this thread. So to be frank, in light of that, I find your question to be rather odd. Are you purposefully ignoring posts or something?!?
Again, as I stated before the problem starts with Zionism and not Hamas. Hamas only came into existence in 1987 and exist very much due to Israel. They are a reaction to what Zionists have done to the Palestinians. They are a sympton of the problem and not the actual problem.
It was Zionism that caused this bloody conflict, and they are still trying to achieve there dream of a "Greater Israel" to this day. This isn't something that stopped in 1948, it is ongoing. It was only a matter time before the people they were oppressing would start to hate them. What else do you expect, when they take people homes from them and treat them like sub humans? Do you think this kind of crap will engender feelings of brotherhood or something? The Palestinian are reacted the exact same way as any other Humans would. They are not uniquely evil sub-humans as Zionists would like the world to believe, just Human like the rest of us.0 -
I don't support either and I have in fact condemned Hamas numerous times.
Support might be the wrong word. "Understand" or sympathise might be better. Im just curious.
Theres a high degree of "what do you expect would happen?!?!?" in peoples posts when it comes the Palestinian reaction to losing the wars of 1948 and 1967 which led to the current situation. Admirable realpolitick. Theres talk about oppression and oppressors, about reclaiming old homelands and yet these just seem to be smokescreens.
The cyclical nature of oppression is highlighted, but ignored despite people establishing morality based on sob stories. Theres no appreciation of "What do you expect would happen?!?!?!" when it comes to the several disastrous rejections of compromise by the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours and the preference for war in 1948, and the showboating in 1967. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians talk about reclaiming homelands from people already living there, but one is seen as a imperialist evil and the other as righting some ancient wrong.
And then Im told that the people espousing the above are objective and moderate and dont support either side...
Very confusing.Again, as I stated before the problem starts with Zionism and not Hamas. Hamas only came into existence in 1987 and exist very much due to Israel. They are a reaction to what Zionists have done to the Palestinians. They are a sympton of the problem and not the actual problem.
Yes, yes. And Zionism, the mission to reclaim the Israelis homeland, was founded in reaction to? The loss of that homeland and being cast into refugee status in the diaspora.
You cant just pick a year zero and go...right, this is the original wrong. They ****ing started it!It was Zionism that caused this bloody conflict, and they are still trying to achieve there dream of a "Greater Israel" to this day. This isn't something that stopped in 1948, it is ongoing. It was only a matter time before the people they were oppressing would start to hate them. What else do you expect, when they take people homes from them and treat them like sub humans? Do you think this kind of crap will engender feelings of brotherhood or something? The Palestinian are reacted the exact same way as any other Humans would. They are not uniquely evil sub-humans as Zionists would like the world to believe, just Human like the rest of us.
Thats a great paragraph. Change a few names and you could have a "Well the Arabs massacred the peaceful Jewish immigrants, what did they expect would happen? That theyd lie down and take it? They reacted the same as any humans would. They are not uniquely evil sub-humans as Palestinians would like the world to believe, just Human like the rest of us"
But you already know that.
You know the evil IDF? Where did they come from? Who or what organisation fought the 1948 war for Israel? What organisation did the Israelis found in reaction to the Arab massacres of Jewish people and the failure of the British to protect them?
Youre admirably cynical about the formation of Hamas being a reaction to the IDF. Just take that cyncism and apply it more evenly.0 -
<edit> some fool messing with my account <edit>0
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Support might be the wrong word. "Understand" or sympathise might be better. Im just curious.
Nothing wrong with understanding why people do what they do.Theres a high degree of "what do you expect would happen?!?!?" in peoples posts when it comes the Palestinian reaction to losing the wars of 1948 and 1967 which led to the current situation. Admirable realpolitick. Theres talk about oppression and oppressors, about reclaiming old homelands and yet these just seem to be smokescreens.
What smoke screen? You have one group crying about people hating them, after they decided to pick a fight with them. If you go around punching people, you will piss them off. Its common sense. It doesn't make that hatred right in anyway regardless.The cyclical nature of oppression is highlighted, but ignored despite people establishing morality based on sob stories. Theres no appreciation of "What do you expect would happen?!?!?!" when it comes to the several disastrous rejections of compromise by the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours and the preference for war in 1948, and the showboating in 1967. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians talk about reclaiming homelands from people already living there, but one is seen as a imperialist evil and the other as righting some ancient wrong.
**EDIT**
I fail to see how 55% of there country being given away to foreign colonists is a "compromise". Seems like capitualation/appeasement of an invader. Regardless, as we have seen with Zionist colonies in Occupied Palestine and the pre-planned ethnic cleansing, nothing short of a Greater Israel (with as few non-Jews as possible present) is enough for Zionists.
**END EDIT**
Both see themselves in the same light. In fact Zionists and there various apologists make the same argument, including yourself.
Still, its fairly simple, who's narrative is factually correct? The Zionist one is easily disprovable. The Palestinian one of people coming from Europe to take over is pretty easy to verify.And then Im told that the people espousing the above are objective and moderate and dont support either side...
Very confusing.
Well, considering some of your own comments on this topic in the past, I would think your not position to judge anyone.Yes, yes. And Zionism, the mission to reclaim the Israelis homeland, was founded in reaction to? The loss of that homeland and being cast into refugee status in the diaspora.
You mean something that may or may not have happened 2000 years ago?!? A quasi religious myth, that has quite a few holes in it. Like for instance, the lack of the Roman's doing it to anyone else, the lack of the basic infrastructure to remove so many people? Your talking about that? Also, add to the fact that Berber Jews are from North Africa and Khazar Jews are from some part of Russia, and were never from the Middle East and were descendants of converts. Again, the Zionist narrative was created in the 19th century to justify what Zionists wanted to do the Palestinians.
We know that Zionists drove Palestinian out of there homes, it is a indisputable fact.
Just, because there are 2 narrative doesn't make them both equally valid.You cant just pick a year zero and go...right, this is the original wrong. They ****ing started it!
Yeah, I can very easily do so. As one groups narrative is basically nonsense used to justify colonialism.Thats a great paragraph. Change a few names and you could have a "Well the Arabs massacred the peaceful Jewish immigrants, what did they expect would happen? That theyd lie down and take it? They reacted the same as any humans would. They are not uniquely evil sub-humans as Palestinians would like the world to believe, just Human like the rest of us"
But you already know that.
Once again you ignore one simple fact. Zionist colonists weren't peaceful and had every intention of taking the land by force.
Of course, this is something you know very well, but choose to ignore, as it invalidates your counter argument.You know the evil IDF? Where did they come from? Who or what organisation fought the 1948 war for Israel? What organisation did the Israelis found in reaction to the Arab massacres of Jewish people and the failure of the British to protect them?
Again, Zionists arrived in Palestine with the intention to take it over. This was aggression and not self defense. Again, you ignore facts that prove you to be wrong.Youre admirably cynical about the formation of Hamas being a reaction to the IDF. Just take that cyncism and apply it more evenly.
Sand, the only way for me to do what you ask, is if I ignore the facts. You have consistently ignored the fact that Zionists were aggressors, who wanted to take over someone else's country, based on some nationalist myth invented in the 19th century. The IDF was formed from several terrorists groups, who wanted to take over Palestine and intended to drive out the indigenous population. They were not formed to to defend themselves, but rather to take away something that wasn't theres.
I reject the Zionist narrative as being largely false and being expressly being created to justify colonialism. You may disagree with my conclusion. However, due to my conclusion, I am actually being equally cynical.
You have yet to address, the basic point that Zionist were aggressors, who's ideology was invented in the 19th century in imitation of other European nationalist myths.
The 2 narratives presented are simply not equally valid and the Zionists one is very easily undermined, due to it relying on ancient events that may or may not have happened.
The Palestinian narrative, is based on stuff that happened in the last 100 years and is far easier to verify. We, also already know they are the indigenous population, and as such are no different than any other indigenous group who were invaded and this makes the situation a classic colonial one.
Now the Zionist narrative exists to confuse things and make it out to be something else and its something which you are trying to do, but I have actually made a effort to look at both sides narratives and the Zionist one is largely nonsense. So, I simply disagree with you, due to what I know about both side's narratives.0 -
The Palestinian narrative, is based on stuff that happened in the last 100 years and is far easier to verify. We, also already know they are the indigenous population, and as such are no different than any other indigenous group who were invaded and this makes the situation a classic colonial one.
No, building a gigantic wall around someone's living space, preventing them from getting to work without an extremely difficult to obtain access card, disallowing access to food, water and medical care, and the abolishion of services such as education (or at least not allowing access) and rubbish collection, is an act of violence, just as much as is shooting rockets. One doesnt need to look far back into history to find sufficient justification for Palestinian violence.
If you are a teacher in a school and this big massive 6th year is constantly harrassing a 1st year, taking his lunch money, not allowing him into the yard every day, making him walk a way home which is twice as long etc etc, as well as hammering the sh1te out of him if he reacts in any way to the harrasment, do you really need to know why it is that the older kid is acting the way he is to punish him for it? Or to recognise, at least, that he is the one in the wrong, even if you find the 1st year actively trying to do sneaky sh1t to him behind his back?
Recognising wrong which has been done in the last decade sidesteps what is a very long and complicated history, while it is necessary for the history to come into play in negotiation between Isreal and Palestine (how could it not?), from the perspective of the international community, or at least a party distanced to some degree from the violence, it is very easy to see who is the perpetrator of the worst actions, and if you take away the horrific living conditions which cause people to turn to violence in an attempt to alleviate them, then you have solved the larger part of the problem.0 -
We know that Zionists drove Palestinian out of there homes, it is a indisputable fact.
And we know that the Arabs launched several pogroms against the Jews long before any Arabs were forced from their homes. Another indisputable fact.
Do you not *get* it?
Oppression is cyclical. The Arabs oppressed the Jews. Now the Jews oppress the Arabs. Attempting to justify actions based on the "Oh well, they're the oppressed so they're desperate!" line of thought is foolish.
You talk the talk when it comes to Palestinian terrorism ( What did the Israelis expect would happen after oppressing the Palestinians?), but thats just a smokescreen. You dont really believe in that logic or you would equally think..."Well, the Arabs launched pogroms against the Jews for decades and rejected a reasonable UN peace plan - What did they expect would happen?"Once again you ignore one simple fact. Zionist colonists weren't peaceful and had every intention of taking the land by force.
The land was only taken by force after decades of pogroms and the rejection of a UN peace plan by the Arabs...What did they expect would happen exactly?
Prior to that Zionist "colonists" bought their houses lawfully, or built new ones lawfully. If you believe this justifies pogroms, fair enough. Were you in South Belfast during the last week?
And out of curiosity, how did the Arabs come to own Palestine? They cant have done so violently surely? Maybe they collected enough tokens from packets of crisps?
All territory is taken by force. All nations have been formed by violence, and maintained through violence. You just arent cynical enough. Hamas claims to be fighting to reclaim their homelands. Israel claims to be fighting to reclaim their homelands. For you, one is some shining beacon of justice and the other some unique evil in the history of the world.You have consistently ignored the fact that Zionists were aggressors,'On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a[n Arab] police constable named Issa Sheriff from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him.'
Wes, can you point out the aggressor to me here? Was it the child? Or the Jewish woman?0 -
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I was under the impression the problem was the current violence and current attempts at colonisation. Why are you dragging this out? Are we playing the atrocity version of Top Trumps?
Oh, so now we *dont* want to play the history game...0 -
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And we know that the Arabs launched several pogroms against the Jews long before any Arabs were forced from their homes. Another indisputable fact.
Do you not *get* it?
True enough, but seeing as Zionists were from Europe, I fail to see the relevance. Seems to me you don't quite get it.Oppression is cyclical. The Arabs oppressed the Jews. Now the Jews oppress the Arabs. Attempting to justify actions based on the "Oh well, they're the oppressed so they're desperate!" line of thought is foolish.
Hardly, European Zionists were not oppressed by Arabs. They were oppressed by other Europeans.
You seem to have huge problem in understanding where Zionism came from, which is Europe. They were hardly being oppressed by Arabs.You talk the talk when it comes to Palestinian terrorism ( What did the Israelis expect would happen after oppressing the Palestinians?), but thats just a smokescreen. You dont really believe in that logic or you would equally think..."Well, the Arabs launched pogroms against the Jews for decades and rejected a reasonable UN peace plan - What did they expect would happen?"
How was the UN peace plan reasonable? In fact, I consider it to be incredibly unreasonable and a huge recipe for disaster. The Israeli's decided to go against the will of the pre-existing majority and declare a independent state, which was a act of aggression and the Palestinians have every right to reject a blatantly unfair partition, where 55% of the land was given to one third, who the majority just so happened to be recently arrived colonists.
Also, again European Jews, not oppressed by Arabs. Middle Eastern Jews arrived in Israel in large numbers after the state was formed. The Palestinian are hardly guilty of oppressing them, due to them living in other countries.The land was only taken by force after decades of pogroms and the rejection of a UN peace plan by the Arabs...What did they expect would happen exactly?
Again, you ignore the simple fact that Zionists were colonial invaders and this was the cause of the violence in Palestine. You narrative is simply untrue, as it ignores the simple fact that Zionists went to Palestine with the intent of expelling the indgenous population and made it very clear they would always use violence.
Simple stating the same thing over and over again does not make you right. Ignoring facts that are inconvenient to you, also does not make you right.Prior to that Zionist "colonists" bought their houses lawfully, or built new ones lawfully. If you believe this justifies pogroms, fair enough. Were you in South Belfast during the last week?
I hardly tried to justify pogroms, but again Zionists came to Palestine with the intent of expelling the indegnous population. Why you ignore this is certainly beyond me. Going some place to set up your own country is normally called an invasion. I find it odd, that you seem to think otherwise in this particular case. Oh wait, you do know why they went to Palestine, but the truth is inconvenient, so you would rather pretend it doesn't exist.
Also, Zionists were not immigrants, but rather colonists, as they wanted to set up there own state.
The people in South Belfast, were immigrants, and did not intend to expel the indigenous population or set up there own country. They were innocent people kicked out of there homes, kind of like the Palestinians, but apparently, if you defend yourself from someone who want to kick you out of your homes, your apparently the same as them in your world.
There is clearly a big difference between the 2 sceanrio's, but you are clearly intent on ignore inconvenient facts.
The simple fact is that Zionists were not peaceful, and they made it very clear back in 1895 and doubly so in the 1920's, when they came up with the Iron Wall concept. You know the Iron Wall, I mentioned it earlier, where Zionists decided to solve all there problems via violence. Strange, how you seem to forget its existence, maybe because its inconvient to your arguement.And out of curiosity, how did the Arabs come to own Palestine? They cant have done so violently surely? Maybe they collected enough tokens from packets of crisps?
They invaded, but what you ignore is that the Palestinian are the indegnous population who over time became culturally Arabized (like most of the other people who were invaded by Arabs). So there hardly responsible for being invaded.
Of course, you know the above, but would rather pretend it is not the case, as it would show your arguement to be false.All territory is taken by force. All nations have been formed by violence, and maintained through violence. You just arent cynical enough. Hamas claims to be fighting to reclaim their homelands. Israel claims to be fighting to reclaim their homelands. For you, one is some shining beacon of justice and the other some unique evil in the history of the world.
Do you read my posts? Clearly you don't. You simple state the same old tired nonsense again and again. If a fact is inconvenient to your arguement you simply ignore it and instead state the same old tired and nonsense again and again. Stating the exact same arguement with little or no modification hardly makes you right.
Also, Hamas are hardly a shining beacon of justice and in fact I have said they are the exact opposite in this thread, but again, this is inconvient to you so you instead choose to ignore it.
It is rather simple, the 2 groups are different. One is a colonial invader and the other isn't. They are hardly the same. Having said that, Hamas actions are in no way justified and I have said this several times in the past, but you clearly know this, and would rather pretend this isn't the case, as my actual position isn't something you can argue against, so you would rather argue against one you have invented for me.
There is also the simple fact that the Israeli's have never stopped there colonialism and are still at even as I type this.Wes, can you point out the aggressor to me here? Was it the child? Or the Jewish woman?
It was clearly, the guys who was trying to kill them both. Did you honestly expect me to answer differently? Also, can you tell the difference between the macro and micro?
Also, I do find you attempting to grab some kind of moral high ground. especially considering some of your past comments, on this topic, to be pretty damn funny. Come on Sand, I have read your past posts. You have tried to blame the murder of a Palestinian child by the Israeli's on the Palestinians, or that there was no dead child or a whole bunch of other crap. Honestly, you are taking the piss here.
**EDIT**
Also, just to point out that the violence you describe, also happened in other colonial invasions, for example the Native American's murdered Women and children, which was of course a terrible crime, but the murders commited by them didn't change the situation one bit. It was still a case of Europeans coming to take there land from them by force.
**END EDIT**0 -
johnathan woss wrote: »There are Palestinians alive today with the legal documentation showing they OWN the land from which they were displaced.
Well, putting that to the side for one moment, the fact is that they are now largely in areas adjacent to the state of Israel. Rather than this being an end to the strife, they now find themselves being both occupied and colonised, and denied the UN route to have their greivances dealt with. Thats what needs focus.0 -
I hardly tried to justify pogroms, but again Zionists came to Palestine with the intent of expelling the indegnous population.
Wes, do you read what you post? Honestly - read what you just posted there.0 -
Wes, do you read what you post? Honestly - read what you just posted there.
Yeah, I read it. The whole point was that Zionist were the one that came with the intent of violence. I didn't say that them looking for a fight justified pogroms, now did I. You clearly are doing your best to try and make it look like I somehow justified pogroms.0 -
Yeah, I read it. The whole point was that Zionist were the one that came with the intent of violence. I didn't say that them looking for a fight justified pogroms, now did I.
So why bring it up?
Why isnt it enough to say - no, I dont believe the pogroms were justified? Why the "but...."?0 -
So why bring it up?
Why isnt it enough to say - no, I dont believe the pogroms were justified? Why the "but...."?
I was in the Middle of something and I tend to ramble, when I do so.
However, I will say it here.
The pogroms were not justified. It is never justified to kill innocent civilians.
Now, having said that, I don't believe you yourself have condemned anything done by Israel. That is if you actually consider Israel actions to be wrong, or to even have happened that is.0 -
Can somebody make it clear that they accept Israels Right to exist?
All this multi-quoting makes a thread much harder to follow not easier!
If You do accept Israels right to exist then You must realise for example that Israel having taken the Golan heights from Syria after being attacted on three fronts and not wanting to give them back is very sensible?
During Irelands war of Independance,If UK had taken control of the mountains overlooking our towns,would we?
what about the wall?how many Israelis were dying by the week before it was built?How many now?was Israel really THAT wrong to build it?
Israel has disgraced itself in many ways by its actions in its recent govts.
the palestinians have been treated disgracefully& it is obvious that each atrocity made things worse.
Stop intelectualising all the time?Arabs Jews only have one life also,they are living in poverty,fear,even the peace loving been driven to hate the *other*side
Solutions would be nice,not people trying to be smarter than the other as if it was a playstation game!:mad:0 -
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Can somebody make it clear that they accept Israels Right to exist?
All this multi-quoting makes a thread much harder to follow not easier!
If You do accept Israels right to exist then You must realise for example that Israel having taken the Golan heights from Syria after being attacted on three fronts and not wanting to give them back is very sensible?
During Irelands war of Independance,If UK had taken control of the mountains overlooking our towns,would we?
The Israeli's nicked the land from people already living there and have never shown aknowledgement of Palestinian rights and to this day actively deny them, its very much a 2 way street, if Israel doesn't care about the other sides rights, they are really no position to complain, when the other guy does the same thing. Both sides need to acknowledge one another rights, in both word and deed. Also, keeping the land in what is a land conflict, is only a recipe for more conflict. Its not like other land for peace arrangements with Jordan and Egypt haven't worked, so why not Syria as well?
As for Israel's right to exist, of course they have right to live in peace and security, but then so do the Palestinian and this right have been actively denied them by Israel, as a matter of state policy according to the dominant ideology (Zionism) in there country.what about the wall?how many Israelis were dying by the week before it was built?How many now?was Israel really THAT wrong to build it?
Yeah, as it is a land grab, and the ICJ has said it is illegal and if it really was about saving there citizens, then they would have build it on there own land and not stolen more land, which again is a recipe for more conflict, as the conflict is primarily one about land and hence taking more if it will cause more conflict.
Israel has shown that it desires land above security, and there constant land theft backs this up nicely.Israel has disgraced itself in many ways by its actions in its recent govts.
the palestinians have been treated disgracefully& it is obvious that each atrocity made things worse.
Stop intelectualising all the time?Arabs Jews only have one life also,they are living in poverty,fear,even the peace loving been driven to hate the *other*side
Solutions would be nice,not people trying to be smarter than the other as if it was a playstation game!:mad:
I mentioned a possible solution earlier:
Geneva Initiative
There are other possible solutions of course, but that site goes into detail of one possible solution and hence why I think it a good example.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC9pc4U40sI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCwnWO4DQGg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCo8gQLcDvY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlJm8Rfi7F4
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