Where will the jews go if Hamas wins?

Belfast

Hamsey wrote: »

Is the Hamas policy to drive the Jews in Palestine into the sea? If Hamas wins the next Gaza-Israel war who will give the Jews refuge?

Or are Hamas going to allow Jews full citizenship in a united Palestine?

Hamas policy is a remove the Zionist state, attempting to Drive the Zionists in Palestine into the sea would only lead to the creation of new Zionist state that would be impossible to get rid of.

Hamas may not expel all the Zionist, they may do a deal, It depends on what Hamas wins (how much land).

It also depends on who is leading Hamas at the time and how the conflict is conducted.

Hard to see a Zionist state giving up even if beated in the field when it can hit back with nukes or other weapons of mass destruction.

Let face it Hamas are not that big a threat to Isreal, there are not as well armed as or organised as Hezbollah.

The conflict Hamas is interested in the medium term is the one with Fatah. (real life of Brian stuff)

if the Zionists were kicked out American would take therm in.
Might save them for having to demolish Detroit. No shortage of empty houses there.

as I have said before Hamas can not win such a conflict.

Israel might collapse for economic or political reasons, but at the moment there is no prospect of them being defected by anyone.

The prospect is so distant that I am not sure that Hamas would know what to do if the Israelites suddenly surrendered.

They may see it as a trick and refuse to accept it.

ynotdu

Hi Wes,for now just a quick thank you for Your reply,
I am really interested in this and I really need to study up on zionism.I cannot see why people of Israel or of the Jewish faith should NOT be paranoid about their security as a race of people.I can understand how many might feel that for every Israeli killed indiscriminate killing of Arabs seems to be the "only language" *they* understand.wish You had agreed that if Syria was not 1 of the 3 invading forces,Syria would still have the Golan heights(and from a purely Strategic view Israel would be crazy to hand them back(may as well just load the cannons for Syria should a dispute arise)

like i said I am following this thread with interest but feel i have not got enough knowledge to comment any further for a while.

Regards

wes

ynotdu wrote: »

I am really interested in this and I really need to study up on zionism.I cannot see why people of Israel or of the Jewish faith should NOT be paranoid about their security as a race of people.I can understand how many might feel that for every Israeli killed indiscriminate killing of Arabs seems to be the "only language" *they* understand.wish You had agreed that if Syria was not 1 of the 3 invading forces,Syria would still have the Golan heights(and from a purely Strategic view Israel would be crazy to hand them back(may as well just load the cannons for Syria should a dispute arise)

While, I agree that the Israeli's have every reason to be paranoid, to a point. Egypt and Jordan have also attacked Israel (and they have peace deals now) and Israel has also attacked Syria, Egypt and Jordan as well. Not to mention that the state was founded on the removal of the inidgenous populace. So the Arab states have plenty of reasons to distrust Israel. Then there are the Palestinians, who are the ones who have suffered the most due the state of Israel being imposed on them.

Also, you just as easily say, that if the Israeli's didn't decide to set up there state against the will of the pre-existing indigenous majority, there simply would be no conflict.

Basically, there is enough blame to go around and in Internet discussions its perfectly fine to discuss who did what till the cows come home, but when it comes to a peace deal, it doesn't really matter, as both sides need to be held to the same standards, but at present this isn't the case.

As for the Golan Heights, there strategic advantage doesn't really mean anything anymore, as Syria is simply no match for Israel militarily and peace deal have worked with both Egypt and Jordan. So why not Syria? There are also examples of peace deal working as well, for both sides. Peace is perfectly possible, and we have seen it work. The strategic arguement doesn't really work, as peace is pefectly possible.

As for the Israeli's deciding to use only violence to sort out there problems, this was decided in the 1920s, long before all this crap happened and even before that in the late 1800's, Zionists made there intentions towards the indegnous populations very clear. My point was that Zionism is bascially a self fulfilling prophecy, as invasions tend to lead to violence from the people being invaded.

ynotdu

Egypt and Jordan had Peace loving men as their leaders when the peace deals were struck with Israel.

I do not know of any reasonable,trusthworty leader of Syria to match them?

as I said I have some knowledge on this but not enough.

regards.


I was going to add a link about the Jordan-Israel treaty of peace from wikipedia but could not find an article that Wikipedia itself did not look for more sources or were facts were challenged.
I searched using the following search terms(all one search) Jordan Israel peace.

Wikipedia is screaming out for more well sourced balance to ALL articles they have on the topic.

May,be You can help them to nail the facts?

wes

ynotdu wrote: »

Egypt and Jordan had Peace loving men as their leaders when the peace deals were struck with Israel.

I do not know of any reasonable,trusthworty leader of Syria to match them?

as I said I have some knowledge on this but not enough.

regards.

Sadat was very much a part of the wars launched against Israel, but he later decided to make peace. So why would the Syrian's not be capable of the same?

Also, the current leader is a different guy than his father who fought wars with Israel.

There really is no reason why peace would not be possible with Syria.

ynotdu wrote: »

I was going to add a link about the Jordan-Israel treaty of peace from wikipedia but could not find an article that Wikipedia itself did not look for more sources or were facts were challenged.
I searched using the following search terms(all one search) Jordan Israel peace.

Wikipedia is screaming out for more well sourced balance to ALL articles they have on the topic.

May,be You can help them to nail the facts?

What details do you want exactly? I don't have access to the text. I just know that they both Israel and Jordan have signed a peace deal.

The Saint

Text of Israel - Jordan Peace Treaty

ynotdu

The Saint wrote: »

Text of Israel - Jordan Peace Treaty

Hi,the Saint,I read about three quaters of the text(I WILL read the rest)
It reads like a very well thought out document(The importance of water something the average Irish person would be prone to overlook:eek:)

Thanks for that.

Regards

ynotdu

wes wrote: »

Sadat was very much a part of the wars launched against Israel, but he later decided to make peace. So why would the Syrian's not be capable of the same?

Also, the current leader is a different guy than his father who fought wars with Israel.

There really is no reason why peace would not be possible with Syria.



What details do you want exactly? I don't have access to the text. I just know that they both Israel and Jordan have signed a peace deal.

neither of the Assads (father or son)in Syria have ever it seems by research offered the hand of friendship to Israel or been prepared to compromise?(again i would prefer more sources,so as not to make sweeping comments that may or may not be true)

Sadat was for sure in the anti-Israel lobby as a younger leader(nassar and the canal *war*would surely have influenced that!
Peace with Israel cost him his life(MURDERED by his own Countrymen,as was Yitzhak Rabin of Israel killed by his own for wanting peace :-(


The details I need is more to do with zionism.
I know the OBVIOUS reasons America veto,s or abstains against ALL Israeli atrocities at the UN(but i suspect beyond the obvious there is Something even deeper at play for American politicions/presidents.

just like being Catholic or protestant does not entitle the Irish to claim Ireland belongs to the Irish until we study back at least 900 years.neither does being Jewish entitle Israel to claim the land Jews live on *belongs* to them.

I suspect when I DO study it some more,I will find plenty of evidence that Jewish people had a land grab far more in excess to what you call the building of the wall by Israel to stop suicide bombings(hey it worked!)

Unfortunatly it will be a matter of researching not 900 years but over 2000 years to even get close to me seeing the whole picture:eek:

In the Indian summer we are having it is difficult to commit to that:)

so WES,when You say what facts am I looking for,you could not possibly post them here!

You Could write a well sourced book though?

I promise i will be first on the queue in Easons when you are signing it:)

regards

ultain

Apparently a group of Irish people have been arrested today by the Israelis! they where delivering humanitarian aid, they where in international waters when it took place. lol:mad:

Sand

If they were trying to run the blockade the Israelis have put in place to prevent Hamas getting access to military/double use supplies then, yeah, theyre going to get arrested.

dvpower

Sand wrote: »

If they were trying to run the blockade the Israelis have put in place to prevent Hamas getting access to military/double use supplies then, yeah, theyre going to get arrested.

One of those held was a Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mairead Maguire. She was trying to deliver humanitarian aid.

Sand

One of those held was a Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mairead Maguire. She was trying to deliver humanitarian aid.

Oh, it was a Nobel Peace Prize winner?!?!?! This changes everything!!?!?!?

Oh wait...no it doesnt.

dvpower

Sand wrote: »

Oh, it was a Nobel Peace Prize winner?!?!?! This changes everything!!?!?!?

Oh wait...no it doesnt.

Well. I think the chances that she was trying to deliver military supplies to Hamas are pretty slim, don't you think?

Sand

Well. I think the chances that she was trying to deliver military supplies to Hamas are pretty slim, don't you think?

How would I know? How would you know? She will have her day in court I'm sure and probably be sent home with a slap on the wrists to avoid any drama over a nobel peace prize award winner being held as a "political prisoner".

And unfortunately, Hamas can and will use a lot of seemingly unimportant items to create weapons to use against Israeli civillians. The Israelis do let humanitarian aid into Gaza, they're just very strict/paranoid about anything that could have any potential miliarty use. Hence the lack of building supplies (cement, steel and so on) in Gaza for reconstruction purposes because they could be used as part of Hamas campaign against Israeli civillians.

dvpower

Sand wrote: »

How would I know? How would you know?

Common sense, maybe?

ultain

Sand wrote: »

Oh, it was a Nobel Peace Prize winner?!?!?! This changes everything!!?!?!?

Oh wait...no it doesnt.

So where are you getting your info from? what makes you think they where trying to help hamas slip weapons through the blockade? you seem like a really clever person, so tell me whats it like been a nipple?;)

Sand

Common sense, maybe?

So you have little or no idea what they were trying to run though the blockade. Good.

So where are you getting your info from? what makes you think they where trying to help hamas slip weapons through the blockade? you seem like a really clever person, so tell me whats it like been a nipple?

Info on what pray tell?

And I dont think they were trying to help hamas slip weapons through the blockade. I have no idea what was in their cargo. I have no idea what items might seem innocent but have a dual use. I do know that if Israel imposes a blockade on an enemy that is trying to attack them, and you try to break that blockade, they will probably arrest you.

If they are totally harmless humanitarian aid, they will be allowed into Gaza anyhow. If they need to be run through a blockade then its probably something that the organisers arent confident would make it through the Israeli concerns over Hamas siezing it and using it for weapons. It could be the Israelis are too paranoid about it, it could be they have good reason not to allow "Item X" into Gaza for fear they'll be seeing it returned to them via a rocket attack. Either way, a few boat loads is not even a drop in the ocean. But its probably good publicity.

Worst come to worst, this "Nobel Peace Prize Winner" (cue gasps of awe from the audience...) will get a slap on the wrist and a warning not to do it again. She'll give some speech about it. And then probably try to do it again.

End of.

wes

ynotdu wrote: »

neither of the Assads (father or son)in Syria have ever it seems by research offered the hand of friendship to Israel or been prepared to compromise?(again i would prefer more sources,so as not to make sweeping comments that may or may not be true)

So? This would have been true of many other leaders as well.

ynotdu wrote: »

Sadat was for sure in the anti-Israel lobby as a younger leader(nassar and the canal *war*would surely have influenced that!
Peace with Israel cost him his life(MURDERED by his own Countrymen,as was Yitzhak Rabin of Israel killed by his own for wanting peace :-(

Yes, Israeli aggression most certainly influenced him, but he decided to go for peace in the end. So why not Syria?

ynotdu wrote: »

The details I need is more to do with zionism.
I know the OBVIOUS reasons America veto,s or abstains against ALL Israeli atrocities at the UN(but i suspect beyond the obvious there is Something even deeper at play for American politicions/presidents.

just like being Catholic or protestant does not entitle the Irish to claim Ireland belongs to the Irish until we study back at least 900 years.neither does being Jewish entitle Israel to claim the land Jews live on *belongs* to them.

I suspect when I DO study it some more,I will find plenty of evidence that Jewish people had a land grab far more in excess to what you call the building of the wall by Israel to stop suicide bombings(hey it worked!)

Unfortunatly it will be a matter of researching not 900 years but over 2000 years to even get close to me seeing the whole picture:eek:

In the Indian summer we are having it is difficult to commit to that:)

so WES,when You say what facts am I looking for,you could not possibly post them here!

Well good luck to you on your research then.

ynotdu wrote: »

You Could write a well sourced book though?

I promise i will be first on the queue in Easons when you are signing it:)

regards

I am a **** writer, so no I couldn't write any kind of book.

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

A) the Israeli Jewish population has good reason to never allow themselves to become oppressed again.

At the expense of the Palestinian population.

Sand wrote: »

Hamas are a terrorist organisation, carrying out completely indiscriminate attacks on civillian targets. They breed hatred of Jewish people to levels unheard of since the 1930s.

The IDF are also a terrorist organisation and are responsible for a much higher ratio of civilian death than Hamas. They are responsible for using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and for shooting down women in the streets for absolutely no reason. And you wonder why Hamas holds so much contempt?

Also - you'll find that their quarrel is with Zionists, not jews.

The IDF are MUCH more dangerous than Hamas. They uphold illegal settlements, and intimidate the Palestinians if they object to the said settlements. They block aid shipment, and intimidate aid workers. They kill at an unfathomable ratio. But yet - no mention of this from you, I wonder why?

Sand

Just read the thread dlofnep, Im pretty sure I have covered all those points already. My answers wont change all that much.

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

No, I just dont see whats extraordinary about your statement on Hamas support. The Palestinians support Hamas because theyre filled with hatred and bitterness and want to murder all Jews they can. This isnt news.

It is actually news to the rational thinker, given that their issue is not with Jews, but Zionists. You should learn to differentiate between the two terms. Do you think they want to harm someone based on their religious beliefs, or harm someone based on the fact that they are occupying their land? Actually, it appears that you do.

It's very simple. The Zionist movement illegally occupies land, and is further expanding it's land (once again, illegally) at the expense of the Palestinian population who lives there.

Given that the international community is UNWILLING to stop Israel from expanding land, upholding an economic blockade and generally shooting Palestinian civilians for no reason - Who is to defend the Palestinians?

pagancornflake

bluewolf wrote: »

Well I'd certainly say not us if they think it's all cool to expand, try to take over the entire landmass and throw white phosphorus at anyone they don't like who was originally living there.

They are surrounded by enemies who are trying to reclaim their third holy city, jerusalem being the Jewish first holy city. They are taking whatever means necessary to defend themselves. I might also add that it was not the jewish people themselves who forced the arab residents off the land...

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

wes

pagancornflake wrote: »

They are surrounded by enemies who are trying to reclaim their third holy city, jerusalem being the Jewish first holy city. They are taking whatever means necessary to defend themselves. I might also add that it was not the jewish people themselves who forced the arab residents off the land...

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

Oh dear, this nonsensical claim again

Israel has peace treaties, with both Jordan and Egypt and as such are not surrounded by enemies. The rest of the Arab league have even made offered peace. What you say above is easily proven false due to these peace treaties already in existence and the fact that the Arab league has made offers of peace.

Also, regarding UN resolutions, you should remember that Israel doesn't adhere to them if and when it suits them.

ynotdu

Thanks pagan for adding another bit to the jigsaw puzzle.
Reading it just goes to reinforce the idea that UN resoulutions are not worth the paper they are written on when it comes to Israel.
just looking at its principles as set out shows there was either VERY naive members of the UN voted for it,or was it more like cynical bartering by the *occupying*forces to buy or blackmail them into voting it through?.

the timeline would seem to suggest that the *occupying*forces KNEW a force friendly to them were ready and waiting to take their place rapidly, and the guarentees for the indiginous Palestinians were bull-sh*t.

great to see the actual document,can You or anybody else recomend websites that are fair and accurate about the middle east?
finding propaganda is easy searching the web,finding sites dedicated to factual history is not!:mad:
(I know history will always by its nature be subjective but at least sites that have no hidden agenda would be nice)

wes

ynotdu wrote: »

great to see the actual document,can You or anybody else recomend websites that are fair and accurate about the middle east?
finding propaganda is easy searching the web,finding sites dedicated to factual history is not!:mad:
(I know history will always by its nature be subjective but at least sites that have no hidden agenda would be nice)

Honestly, its very hard to find stuff that isn't biased in some way or isn't full of a lot of rubbish.

Try some of the Human Right web sites, those tend to be pretty good.

ynotdu

wes wrote: »

Oh dear, this nonsensical claim again

Israel has peace treaties, with both Jordan and Egypt and as such are not surrounded by enemies. The rest of the Arab league have even made offered peace. What you say above is easily proven false due to these peace treaties already in existence and the fact that the Arab league has made offers of peace.

Also, regarding UN resolutions, you should remember that Israel doesn't adhere to them if and when it suits them.

Hi wes,I dont agree that you are a **** writer.(the OH dear,this nonsensical claim again,Does make you sound arrogant/pompous though.)

Israel owes Syria nothing,they fought against Israel and as a result lost some of their land to Israel,the same Israel they Egypt and Jordan were attempting to wipe off the map.some people would say tough sh1t to Syria.

The Isralis do not trust either the united states or the UK enough to give back the Golan heights as at some future date they can not be certain who might be prez or pm.Israel demonstrated some of this mistrust in the wars by feeding false information to the US in the sure knowledge that Arab spys were working in the US military.

by a mile Syria is no match for Israel militarily,Yes Israel has the bomb but would destroy itself by attacking surrounding states(If that doomsday scenario was ever reached I believe Israel would evacuate as many as possible by sea and let the worst happen rather than lose the state of Israel)

the step below that is of course some kind of looney land based assault on Israel and if the Golan heights were in the hands of an enemy it makes israel a sitting duck.thats why i believe Israel will never have full peace with Syria.

all worse case scenario stuff,but then again people of Jewish background have EVERY reason to trust nobody but themselves:(

wes

ynotdu wrote: »

Hi wes,I dont agree that you are a **** writer.(the OH dear,this nonsensical claim again,Does make you sound arrogant/pompous though.)

Perhaps, but the same claim is made again and again and just isn't true. Just taking Egypt and Jordan on there own, shows the statement to be false. We even discussed those treaties in this thread, hence my being some what flippant.

ynotdu wrote: »

Israel owes Syria nothing,they fought against Israel and as a result lost some of their land to Israel,the same Israel they Egypt and Jordan were attempting to wipe off the map.some people would say tough sh1t to Syria.

As I said before, you could say the same to Israel, they kicked out all the Palestinians and whole bunch of people now hate them. Everyone else in the region doesn't owe them a thing, so tough **** to them too.

Now, such an attitude is hardly going to get them anywhere, just the same as the attitude you described above.

ynotdu wrote: »

The Isralis do not trust either the united states or the UK enough to give back the Golan heights as at some future date they can not be certain who might be prez or pm.Israel demonstrated some of this mistrust in the wars by feeding false information to the US in the sure knowledge that Arab spys were working in the US military.

The US/UK are irrelevant in this case and again I would point to the current peace treaties Israel, has made with Egypt and Jordan, which have worked out fine for Israel.

ynotdu wrote: »

by a mile Syria is no match for Israel militarily,Yes Israel has the bomb but would destroy itself by attacking surrounding states(If that doomsday scenario was ever reached I believe Israel would evacuate as many as possible by sea and let the worst happen rather than lose the state of Israel)

Well no it wouldn't, Syria is a massive country. A single nuclear weapon could be used that would have minimal effect on Israel.

This of course, assumes that Syria would attack Israel after making peace. The exact same could be said of Egypt or Jordan and yet Israel has treaties with them now don't they?

Sorry, I simply disagree with your reasoning. Syria is really no different to Egypt or Jordan and pretty much everything you say about Syria applies or applied to them at one point. Peace with Syria is most certainly possible.

ynotdu wrote: »

the step below that is of course some kind of looney land based assault on Israel and if the Golan heights were in the hands of an enemy it makes israel a sitting duck.thats why i believe Israel will never have full peace with Syria.

all worse case scenario stuff,but then again people of Jewish background have EVERY reason to trust nobody but themselves:(

Why then have they made treaties with Egypt and Jordan? Those have worked just fine. So why not Syria? If Israel can trust Israel and Jordan, then why not Syria? I honestly can't fathom any reason why Syria is so different to the other 2. The military reasoning doesn't really matter, as Israel is clearly military superior to Syria, who are simply no match for Israel.

If Israel doesn't want to pursue the peace that is on offer, then they really have no one to blame, but themselves. They can't pretend that the other side has never offered peace anymore.

ynotdu

Hi wes.

The US/UK are very relevent as Israel NEEDS them(ok mostly the US)as a *friend* and handy Launching pad for war should the Arab world at sometime in the future decide to use the oil card again,or *friendly*Arab countries like Saudi Arabia have their leaders overthrown before the US is no longer dependant on the middle east for oil.,The US are at high speed making that a goal,Then will America drop Israel like a brick(after all it only entered ww2 AFTER pearl Harbour.it WAS going to let Europe rot!
Why do i only mention the US and UK?because Europe showed its wimpy ass during the Ethnic cleansing of Kosovo,only Clinton and Blair had the balls to help.


The thing about Syria is both Israel and the palestinions have been VERY badly served by the people they elected,for a long time now.Israel in particulor has disgraced itself through hate filled leaders compared to earlier more thoughful PM,s they had.( slightly off topic, lets face it Bush jnr was of no help to palestinions)

as I said in earlier posts these vicious people escalated it to almost the point of no return to a Camp David.

as i see things now(Peaceloving,though I am)If I was an Israeli PM or top military man,i would not give back the Golan heights.
so on this at least guess We have to agree to differ:)

regards

wes

ynotdu wrote: »

Hi wes.

The US/UK are very relevent as Israel NEEDS them(ok mostly the US)as a *friend* and handy Launching pad for war should the Arab world at sometime in the future decide to use the oil card again,or *friendly*Arab countries like Saudi Arabia have their leaders overthrown before the US is no longer dependant on the middle east for oil.,The US are at high speed making that a goal,Then will America drop Israel like a brick(after all it only entered ww2 AFTER pearl Harbour.it WAS going to let Europe rot!

Well alright then, would it not make more sense then, to try and make peace before then?

ynotdu wrote: »

Why do i only mention the US and UK?because Europe showed its wimpy ass during the Ethnic cleansing of Kosovo,only Clinton and Blair had the balls to help.

True enough.

ynotdu wrote: »

The thing about Syria is both Israel and the palestinions have been VERY badly served by the people they elected,for a long time now.Israel in particulor has disgraced itself through hate filled leaders compared to earlier more thoughful PM,s they had.( slightly off topic, lets face it Bush jnr was of no help to palestinions)

as I said in earlier posts these vicious people escalated it to almost the point of no return to a Camp David.

as i see things now(Peaceloving,though I am)If I was an Israeli PM or top military man,i would not give back the Golan heights.
so on this at least guess We have to agree to differ:)

regards

Well, I don't believe the current Israeli leadership will go for peace, but I think when it comes to the other Arab states, they are willing to make peace, which is something we could not have said a decade ago. I reckon the Israeli's are missing a massive opportunity is all.

wes

Sand wrote: »

If they are totally harmless humanitarian aid, they will be allowed into Gaza anyhow. If they need to be run through a blockade then its probably something that the organisers arent confident would make it through the Israeli concerns over Hamas siezing it and using it for weapons. It could be the Israelis are too paranoid about it, it could be they have good reason not to allow "Item X" into Gaza for fear they'll be seeing it returned to them via a rocket attack. Either way, a few boat loads is not even a drop in the ocean. But its probably good publicity.

Sand, your buying into Israel propoganda here. The Israeli's block certain items on a day to day basis. One day pasta will be allowed in and the next it won't for example. So aid organisations have no clue if they can get aid into Gaza, as Israel likes to change things from day to day, and they won't provide lists of what is or isn't allowed in. Its really is very petty of them.