No Confidence motion - a waste of Dail time surely?

the_syco

squonk wrote: »

One and a half days amidst the greatest ecconomic crisis to hit this country in a long, long time and our public representatives are spending a day and a half debating a no confidence motion that the government will win anyway... Surely there are better issues that could be dealt with now using this time, especially considering holidays kick in in a a week or two anyway..

We is talking about a government who goes on holidays without giving a toss about the economic situation... so wasting a day or two on putting pressure to get them to f**k off is not really a total waste.

electrogrimey

Well it was the opposition who called it, and their more or less sole aim is to get into government, so they're easily going to take the, albeit slim, chance for it to passed at the expense of a day or two of Dáil time! So that answers the original question...as to whether it'll be passed or not, I'd say a few of the FF backbenchers and the Greens are debating the same things we're saying right now...

Liam Byrne

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has told his parliamentary party that Fianna Fáil has to modernise ahead of the next general election to produce an organisation that is fit for purpose.

TAOISEACH BRIAN Cowen told Fianna Fáil TDs and Senators last night that the party required radical modernisation to make it “fit for purpose” for the 21st century.

Multiple sources
http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=147887002
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0610/fiannafail.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0610/1224248537831.html

So he's admitting that it's not currently "fit for purpose" ? :eek:

How the f**k can he claim a mandate and arrogantly stay in place if his organisation isn't "fit for purpose" ? :mad:

squonk

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Multiple sources
http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=147887002
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0610/fiannafail.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0610/1224248537831.html

So he's admitting that it's not currently "fit for purpose" ? :eek:

How the f**k can he claim a mandate and arrogantly stay in place if his organisation isn't "fit for purpose" ? :mad:

I thought they were modern enough, especially under Bertie I thought they made lots of strides in PR etc. Now FG have a bit of a youthful lineup but I'm not sure that makes them very modern either. What's he talking about? Referring to the Cabinet as his 'Homies' from now on? I think they have bigger problems than modrnisation!

mike65

Classic response - blame a systems failure.

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

Classic response - blame a systems failure.

Maybe it's the same system that was supposed to read that report on the Anglo Irish cesspit before throwing all our money at it ?

Oh - hang on - that was Lenihan.....

seamus

Akrasia wrote: »

Option B could see them gain kudos from the electorate and give them a reasonable chance of being re-elected as an independent or candidate with another party.

nesf wrote: »

Option B would have worked six months ago, not so much now. If they voted for the past two mini budgets and only jump ship now, after voting for getting rid of the Christmas bonus and other such hot button issues they probably have better chance with the party than without it. Any FF TD wanting to go the independent route should have jumped ship with the last budget I think at the very latest.

To bring out an overused quote, "All politics is local". If someone was clever enough, they could examine the local election results in their own constituency and compare the increase in independent support -v- the decrease in FF support. If they were already reasonably popular in their constituency, it would stand to reason then that they will fare much better as a popular independent than an outgoing FFer. If they have any particular axes to grind on a local level, they're much more likely to get attention also as an independent in a coalition government than a FF backbencher.
I doubt anyone on the ground is looking too closely at who voted for what within the Dáil - especially when he can distance himself by saying that it was a FF mandate.

Of course, this does require a few criteria to be in place for someone to break ranks, but it only needs two
Maybe I'm just an optimist, though I'm a little puzzled why the media have already written this off as political footballing - it's absolutely not unreasonable to think this motion may end up passing by the skin of its teeth.

The Green party by its very nature would be much more likely to break ranks, but any collapse of this Government will land on top of the Greens and they'd be finished. They *need* to last the five years in order to salvage their party at the next GE.

solice

seamus wrote: »

To bring out an overused quote, "All politics is local". If someone was clever enough, they could examine the local election results in their own constituency and compare the increase in independent support -v- the decrease in FF support. If they were already reasonably popular in their constituency, it would stand to reason then that they will fare much better as a popular independent than an outgoing FFer.

This did happen. 40 ex FF councillors ran as independents or members of other parties and got elected. Backbenchers aint happy about that.

Independent Article

Zoney

seamus wrote: »

To bring out an overused quote, "All politics is local". If someone was clever enough, they could examine the local election results in their own constituency and compare the increase in independent support -v- the decrease in FF support. If they were already reasonably popular in their constituency, it would stand to reason then that they will fare much better as a popular independent than an outgoing FFer. If they have any particular axes to grind on a local level, they're much more likely to get attention also as an independent in a coalition government than a FF backbencher.
I doubt anyone on the ground is looking too closely at who voted for what within the Dáil - especially when he can distance himself by saying that it was a FF mandate.

On the other hand, even with the massive drop in support, a lot of FF household names are safe even if they won't bring in a running mate. People will vote no.1 O'Dea etc. and no.2 ABFF (although I'm cautiously looking forward to seeing the drop in no.1s for such individuals even so!)

Anyone who isn't popular enough to be a household name probably won't fare much better as an independent - although pulling out might get them some kudos (risky strategy though).

squonk

Won't that just result though in those councillors drifting back to FF over time as conditions improve? You have to wonder about the 'careerism' of some of these people when you look at some of the party hopping they do! For my my choice of party was reasonably well thought out before I joined and as long as they continue to reflect my values, I'll continue to be a member. Doesn't seem to be the same for some of the runners though!

hellboy99

"No Confidence motion - a waste of Dail time surely?", if it is a watse of time then a state wide protest by the people (just like they do in France) is needed to get FF out.

ShooterSF

seamus wrote: »

The Green party by its very nature would be much more likely to break ranks, but any collapse of this Government will land on top of the Greens and they'd be finished. They *need* to last the five years in order to salvage their party at the next GE.

And their govt. pension, right?

turgon

Anyone any idea what time the vote is at? The government seems unable to create an order of business.

peasant

seamus wrote: »

To bring out an overused quote, "All politics is local". If someone was clever enough, they could examine the local election results in their own constituency and compare the increase in independent support -v- the decrease in FF support. If they were already reasonably popular in their constituency, it would stand to reason then that they will fare much better as a popular independent than an outgoing FFer. If they have any particular axes to grind on a local level, they're much more likely to get attention also as an independent in a coalition government than a FF backbencher.
I doubt anyone on the ground is looking too closely at who voted for what within the Dáil - especially when he can distance himself by saying that it was a FF mandate.

Of course, this does require a few criteria to be in place for someone to break ranks, but it only needs two

There is also the (very) vague hope that there may be one or two politicians out there who actually (still) possess a moral compass and something resembling a backbone ...one or two politicians who still remember all the good intentions they had when they started off in this career.



Btw ...Santa Claus IS real, isn't he?

gcgirl

Can you access how the independents vote ? I'd like to know how the Ex FF Joe Behan votes it will be interesting!!

Liam Byrne

solice wrote: »

This did happen. 40 ex FF councillors ran as independents or members of other parties and got elected. Backbenchers aint happy about that.

Would that not give the backbenchers an indication of what's required of them ?

I could nearly guarantee that if 4 or 5 backbenchers resigned and then ran as independents they would be voted in at the next election, on the basis that they did the right thing.

solice

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Would that not give the backbenchers an indication of what's required of them ?

I could nearly guarantee that if 4 or 5 backbenchers resigned and then ran as independents they would be voted in at the next election, on the basis that they did the right thing.

Sher listen, the whole world and its mother was telling the govt that they need to change for the last couple of years and the taoiseachs response was that they should go and commit suicide. I dont for one assume that anyone in the current govt. has an i.q. greater than the number of council seats the green party has.

Sully

Well, as predicted, the government won with a majority of 6 (which in Dail terms, is pretty decent apparently). There is now talk that this has damaged FG as they, perhaps, should have waited. I know that a lot of those affected in that report about the child abuse scandals are annoyed at the discussion on it being put off to allow for the motion.

Thoughts? Im on the bench. It may have been wise to leave it, but I can see why they did it as it was in response to the elections.

CorkFenian

Sully wrote: »

Well, as predicted, the government won with a majority of 6 (which in Dail terms, is pretty decent apparently). There is now talk that this has damaged FG as they, perhaps, should have waited. I know that a lot of those affected in that report about the child abuse scandals are annoyed at the discussion on it being put off to allow for the motion.

Thoughts? Im on the bench. It may have been wise to leave it, but I can see why they did it as it was in response to the elections.

That makes a lot of sense alright..Blame FG (not saying u are but in general people might)when FF make a total mess of the child abuse scandals for past 10 years...It really does beggar belief...What were FG going to do...They had to push for a no confidence vote..FG and Labour have to work 10 times as hard as FF it seems to gain popular opinion...FF mess up and every party is bad..FF do "well" and FF and FF alone take the credit..What mandate do FF and Greens have..None...Just people who know they would be gone if there was a general election tomorrow...

peasant

I think it had to be done.

Just for the "you never know factor" and also because the opposition is in the luxurious position to take the high moral ground. Every now and then they have to stake their claim to it or loose it.

So now we know for certain that all those aligned to the governement really are the spineless, power crazy, gravy train passengers for which we always took them.

Worthwhile excercise in my book.

deadhead13

It was strictly tactical on FGs part. Call a vote of no confidence now, then the next time they will be able to call one is in 6 months time - right after the next budget.

Akrasia

it is irrational to blame the opposition for calling a motion of no confidence after 80% of the voters just sent a very clear message that they want the government out.

We should be angry at the government for refusing to go and for their utter lack of respect for the wishes of the irish people.

Now would be the perfect time to have an election, before the budget, and during the summer recess when the dail doesn't even sit.

If the govt falls after the budget it will be much more damaging to the economy and our chances of recovery.

FF/Greens/PD are a total disgrace

Liam Byrne

Akrasia wrote: »

FF/Greens/PD are a total disgrace

One down, two to go.......

thethedev

Any news on a result? When will we know that were stuck with em'?:pac:

Scofflaw

thethedev wrote: »

Any news on a result? When will we know that were stuck with em'?:pac:

I thought that had been announced? 85-79 in the government's favour, afaik.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Akrasia wrote: »

it is irrational to blame the opposition for calling a motion of no confidence after 80% of the voters just sent a very clear message that they want the government out.

We should be angry at the government for refusing to go and for their utter lack of respect for the wishes of the irish people.

Now would be the perfect time to have an election, before the budget, and during the summer recess when the dail doesn't even sit.

If the govt falls after the budget it will be much more damaging to the economy and our chances of recovery.

FF/Greens/PD are a total disgrace

While not wishing to defend FF, I have to point out that their losses amounted to 84 council seats, one TD, and one MEP. In the 2004 locals/euros they lost 80 council seats and 2 MEPs - they then went on to win the 2007 GE.

factually,
Scofflaw

Mr.Micro

As predicted as well the self serving Independents and the unctuous Greens came out to vote for FF as the fate of the country is far less important than saving their own careers. So Biffo and Co will blunder on through the wilderness making tough decisions and business as usual ruining our country but protect our banks at any cost.

Akrasia

85 and 79 is 164... so who was paired?

jank

FF/Greens/IND colours nailed to the mast! FG and Labour can hammer every TD that voted for the Govt now for the next 6 months and the public will know this now.
Cue on board snip and the december budget where an extra 4 billion (at least) has to be taken out..... death by a thousand cuts.

I will put up with FF in power for the next 6-12 months so long it spells the end of them for the party of government. Hopefully this will destroy the party.

Don't be surprised to see them polling in the teens come winter and budget time....

Meanwhile the country is still losing money and unemployment is going up.

Boggle

While not wishing to defend FF, I have to point out that their losses amounted to 84 council seats, one TD, and one MEP. In the 2004 locals/euros they lost 80 council seats and 2 MEPs - they then went on to win the 2007 GE.

I think the point he was making is that we can have an election over the summer without upsetting anything and even if, as you suggest, the people return FF to govt, at least they would (for the first time) have the support of the people to do what needs to be done. This way they can hit the ground running after the recess with unquestionable authority.

Do nothing though and you face the undeniable fact that the govts authority is severely undermined as they cannot freely introduce a tough budget without risking bringing down the government.

(Plus, while they dropped 80 odd seats both times, you choose to ignore the percentage drops which are significantly larger this time and if continued could see the party hit obscurity by the time Jake and the fatman are given the boot)