Barroso seeks speedy Lisbon vote

gizmo555

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0609/breaking19.htm

The European Union must “quickly agree” a package of measures to secure Irish ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso said today.

Speaking after a meeting in Brussels, Mr Barroso said he hoped the union could resolve the outstanding institutional issues in line with agreements made at the European Council last December, where Taoiseach Brian Cowen secured a number of concessions to make the treaty more palatable to the Irish electorate.

The key elements of the deal involve agreement that all EU states retain a commissioner, and that legal guarantees on issues of concern to the Irish electorate such as neutrality, abortion and taxation are accepted.

Mr Barroso called on the Council of Ministers for a speedy acceptance of the measures.

He said: “I want us to give the Irish Government what it needs to call a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and to give it the best chance to win.”

“I therefore hope we can quickly agree on the assurances that we accepted in December,” he added.

I'll bet he does - he's probably terrified the Tories will get into power in an early election in the UK and make good on their promise to have a referendum there before we have a chance to hold ours . . .

humanji

Of course he does. He's pro-lisbon. It's just like how anti-lisbon people want it to take a while so that if the torries get in and hold a referendom, the treaty won't be ratified. It's hardly an unexpected comment.

USE

gizmo555 wrote: »

I'll bet he does - he's probably terrified the Tories will get into power in an early election in the UK and make good on their promise to have a referendum there before we have a chance to hold ours . . .

Yes, I am almost sure that's the reason. UK gov. is like it could brake anyday. I hope Ireland won't be late

Are there any talks in Ireland to take the referendum earlier than in October?

Rb

Good, if they try to rush this to dodge a new UK Government not ratifying it will only ad fuel to the next No campaign.

I'll certainly vote No for this reason alone should it be an issue.

gizmo555

humanji wrote: »

Of course he does. He's pro-lisbon. It's just like how anti-lisbon people want it to take a while so that if the torries get in and hold a referendom, the treaty won't be ratified. It's hardly an unexpected comment.

I'm merely saying - and I accept it is speculative and perhaps a bit cynical of me - that I suspect Mr Barroso's desire for haste is not so much so that we may enjoy the benefits of the Lisbon Treaty that much sooner but to exclude any possibility of the people of the UK voting directly on the treaty.

spraoi77

Barroso is a crook and as for the European Commission they are not democratically elected. They have a cheek to push the Lisbon Treaty on us again especially when the Irish said no already.

It is an insult to democracy and I have no political affiliaitions but I do oppose the Lisbon Treaty. If the Irish people are stupid enough to vote yes to Lisbon II because they think that the economy will pick up if we do or that we will be pushed out in the "European Wilderness" then we deserve all that will come with it.

Our fishermen cannot fish their own waters. Our farmers are paid not to grow food in a time when there was a food crisis throughout the world and our legislators in the Dail 166 overpaid puppets cannot make breath without asking the EU for permission. All we have gained from Europe are a few decent roads and overpriced pieces of art on roundabouts.

Did you know and this is a fact-Dick Roche-Minister for Propaganda OOPs Freudian slip-Minister or Europe begged the EU Parliament to isolate and financially punish Ireland until we say yes to Lisbon. Imagine an Irish govt minister telling a foreign parliament to punish his own people until we give the answer that the EU would desire.

Lisbon if put into place will render our Irish constitution null and void and it will not allow us the opportunity EVER AGAIN to vote on future issues in the EU. We deny our future children the right to vote.

However the elite little bunch of narrow minded people in RTE, the Irish Times and the Irish media have done their job well-they have convinced the Irish people that they cant pi** without consulting the EU.

It is interesting that Kathy Sinnott, Patricia Mc Kenna, Declan Ganley and Mary Lou Mc Donald were not given as much press or media attention in these elections compared to the Pro Lisbon side.

The Irish people have spoken in June 2008 but we are told that our democratic will is not accepted-a dark day for all and our children. Remember a man called Adolf Hitler once charmed the German electorate to win the elections in Germany-it didnt take him long to dismantle democracy and people just sat back and accepted it.

Lisbon II is an insult to the memory of Michael Collins, Arthur Griffith, James Connolly, the patriots who all spilt blood to give our country freedom only to see Brian Cowen, Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore and co sign it away on a piece of paper.

This is not scare mongering. What I have said is the truth and I appeal to all peoplereading this to OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE TRUTH-TO VOTE NO TO LISBON II IS NOT BRINGING PUNISHMENT ON OURSELVES BUT A CHANGE TO NEGOTIATE A BETTER DEAL FOR IRELAND. WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MAKE OUR OWN LAWS, FISH OUR OWN WATERS AND SEND PACKING ANY NORWEGIAN, SPANISH OR OUTSIDE FISHING BOATS WHO TAKE MILIONS OUT OF OUR ECONOMY AND JOBS AWAY FROM PLACES LIKE HOWTH, KILLYBEGS AND GREENCASTLE. WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLANT OUR OWN FOOD AND SET OUR OWN PRICES. WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE LAWS IN THE DAIL AND SET THEM IN STONE IN THE DAIL RATHER THAN BUREAUCRATS FROM BRUSSELS TELL US OTHERWISE. WE SHOULD NOT BE TRYING TO LICK UP OR ARSE KISS EUROPEAN LEADERS. DICK ROCHE WHO IS MORE LOYAL TO BARROSO, SARKOSY AND CO IS GOOD AT DOING THAT. HE SHOULD BE ARSE KISSING THE IRISH ELECTORATE IN WEXFORD WHO GIVE HIM HIS JOB. I NOTICE THAT HE APPROPRIATELY NAMED "DICK" BECAUSE THATS EXACTLY WHAT HE IS-SHAME ON HIM FOR SIGNING AWAY IRISH FREEDOM.

I HOPE AND PRAY THAT WE SAY YES TO FREEDOM AND NO TO THE TYRANNY OF EUROPE. I AM NOT ANTI EUROPEAN BUT I DO THINK THEIR SHOULD BE LIMITS TO EUROPEAN INTEGRATION ESPECIALLY AS IT MAKES US SLAVES TO EU LAW-
I PREFER TO SHARE THE EU VISION OF SCHUMANN AND CO WHO ORIGINALLY DREW UP THE EUROPEAN PLAN IN 1957 IN ROME-ECONONOMIC AND CULTURAL COOPERATION

SADLY IT HAS GONE OUT OF CONTROL AND NEXT TIME YOU SEE MR. BARROSO ON TV REMEMBER HE IS UNELECTED AND THINK OF ADOLF HITLER, STALIN AND CO WHO ALSO WERE UNELECTED.

MAY GOD PROTECT AND SAVE IRELAND:)

passive

spraoi77 wrote: »

Remember a man called Adolf Hitler once charmed the German electorate to win the elections in Germany

This is not scare mongering. What I have said is the truth and I appeal to all peoplereading this to

I HOPE AND PRAY THAT WE SAY YES TO FREEDOM AND NO TO THE TYRANNY OF EUROPE.

sweet f*cking Jesus, it just keeps getting worse and worse...

Oh, and rb, you'll be voting no for "this reason alone," really? All the dozens of other reasons you've constructed around your position don't matter anymore?

ShooterSF

humanji wrote: »

Of course he does. He's pro-lisbon. It's just like how anti-lisbon people want it to take a while so that if the torries get in and hold a referendom, the treaty won't be ratified. It's hardly an unexpected comment.

You know I wouldn't be as disgusted if he would just come out and say it. Of course he won't.

humanji

spraoi77 wrote: »

It is an insult to democracy

Is it not more of an insult to democracy for the minority to decide the fate of the majority?

passive

ShooterSF wrote: »

You know I wouldn't be as disgusted if he would just come out and say it. Of course he won't.

Just like Sinn Fein will come out and say "we want to delay a vote on the Lisbon Treaty so that the British failure to ratify will give us victory by default" yeah?

spraoi77

Does the truth sting my friend! Speaking of Jesus, Pilate said at his trial What is truth? The truth will kick us up the arse in about twenty years time when we are locked to Europe without any say because we signed it away-why have wars to invade countries when you can get people to sign away sovereignty.

Candy of a baby!!!!

But all is not lost-David Cameron has promised a referendum in the UK if he is elected which is looking good at the moment based on local election results. President Klaus refuses to sign the treaty in the Czech Republic.

The EU has said that where one country had failed to ratify the Lisbon Treaty then it becomes null and void and put in the bin for good. They lied. One country has rejected it through the ballot box and still they intend to steam roll it over the peoples heads. Very few countries were offered a referendum to choose or reject Lisbon. What does that tell you?

Yet our politicians who I suspect are being paid off to push this on the Irish people won't listen to the voice of the people.

Its a bit like a big sweaty guy pushing himself on a girl in a nightclub even though she has told him that she is not interested. The rape of democracy.

humanji

spraoi77 wrote: »

Does the truth sting my friend! Speaking of Jesus, Pilate said at his trial What is truth? The truth will kick us up the arse in about twenty years time when we are locked to Europe without any say because we signed it away-why have wars to invade countries when you can get people to sign away sovereignty.

Candy of a baby!!!!

But all is not lost-David Cameron has promised a referendum in the UK if he is elected which is looking good at the moment based on local election results. President Klaus refuses to sign the treaty in the Czech Republic.

The EU has said that where one country had failed to ratify the Lisbon Treaty then it becomes null and void and put in the bin for good. They lied. One country has rejected it through the ballot box and still they intend to steam roll it over the peoples heads. Very few countries were offered a referendum to choose or reject Lisbon. What does that tell you?

Yet our politicians who I suspect are being paid off to push this on the Irish people won't listen to the voice of the people.

Its a bit like a big sweaty guy pushing himself on a girl in a nightclub even though she has told him that she is not interested. The rape of democracy.

Again, the minority deciding the fate of the majority is not democracy.

And I'm pretty sure Jesus is none to fond of those who twist the truth and use his name to further their political goals.

Scofflaw

Ah yes - I'm so looking forward to the referendum campaign. The rational debate! The rapier cut and thrust of intellectual discourse! The grave and dispassionate consideration of the pros and cons of Lisbon!

Or hysteria, martyrs, and fish, of course.

wearily,
Scofflaw

gizmo555

humanji wrote: »

Is it not more of an insult to democracy for the minority to decide the fate of the majority?

No. That's the way this thing works - either all member states agree or it doesn't come into effect.

turgon

Rb wrote: »

Good, if they try to rush this to dodge a new UK Government not ratifying it will only ad fuel to the next No campaign.

I'll certainly vote No for this reason alone should it be an issue.

Because voting No will change that I suppose?

iseethelight

It would be disastrous if they bought the referendum forward. It would become a referendum on Cowen and the Govt. especially after the arrogant way they took the election results. People will think the only way to dislodge them is a strong no vote. As for me I'm undecided.

passive

spraoi77 wrote: »

Its a bit like a big sweaty guy pushing himself on a girl in a nightclub even though she has told him that she is not interested. The rape of democracy.

You are talking complete and utter bollocks. This is very far removed from the truth. This is overdramatic, emotive, unrelated-to-reality, out and out bull****, and you and the dozens of others like you need to **** right off and let people actually talk about the matter at hand... and I forget where I was going with this, besides getting banned, because I just had to go rescue a little white bird from a magpie... *goes away*

gizmo555

iseethelight wrote: »

It would be disastrous if they bought the referendum forward. It would become a referendum on Cowen and the Govt. especially after the arrogant way they took the election results. People will think the only way to dislodge them is a strong no vote. As for me I'm undecided.

You're absolutely right. Even supporters of the Lisbon treaty should be wary of Barroso's advice - to rush the referendum fence in the way he seems to want would probably backfire.

humanji

gizmo555 wrote: »

No. That's the way this thing works - either all member states agree or it doesn't come into effect.

My post was in response to the "rape of democracy" remark.

gizmo555

humanji wrote: »

My post was in response to the "rape of democracy" remark.

Sorry - misunderstood.

spraoi77

passive wrote: »

You are talking complete and utter bollocks. This is very far removed from the truth. This is overdramatic, emotive, unrelated-to-reality, out and out bull****, and you and the dozens of others like you need to **** right off and let people actually talk about the matter at hand... and I forget where I was going with this, besides getting banned, because I just had to go rescue a little white bird from a magpie... *goes away*

Passive I think you are for the birds-find me a happy farmer or a happy fisherman and then you still wont have a point. Do you have to get so aggressive and offensive?
Can we not rationally debate this or do you have to line your words with asterisk's.
When your kids have to fight in a European army or civil rights groups have to go underground-when there will be no more forums like this one then I hope you remember my words.

Or maybe you are Dick Roche's ally or a little yes man in a party where you are guaranteed a plum job if you go with the flow.

Scofflaw

passive wrote:

You are talking complete and utter bollocks. This is very far removed from the truth. This is overdramatic, emotive, unrelated-to-reality, out and out bull****, and you and the dozens of others like you need to **** right off and let people actually talk about the matter at hand... and I forget where I was going with this, besides getting banned, because I just had to go rescue a little white bird from a magpie... *goes away*

spraoi77 wrote: »

Passive I think you are for the birds-find me a happy farmer or a happy fisherman and then you still wont have a point. Do you have to get so aggressive and offensive?
Can we not rationally debate this or do you have to line your words with asterisk's.
When your kids have to fight in a European army or civil rights groups have to go underground-when there will be no more forums like this one then I hope you remember my words.

Or maybe you are Dick Roche's ally or a little yes man in a party where you are guaranteed a plum job if you go with the flow.

We're not going to have a debate at the level of politics.ie here. You're new to the Politics forum, spraoi77, so here's a little advice - if you play the man rather than the ball here, you'll be banned.

moderately,
Scofflaw

ShooterSF

passive wrote: »

Just like Sinn Fein will come out and say "we want to delay a vote on the Lisbon Treaty so that the British failure to ratify will give us victory by default" yeah?

Well I'd prefer that, yes. It turns my stomach when a politicians motives are so obvious yet they still claim some other reason for their rallying call. Regardless of issue.
You and I and everyone here knows why he's looking to rush it. We also have no problem saying why we hope it gets delayed/rushed etc. All I'd like is a lil honesty from politicians, atleast when the real purpose is so blatant that lying serves no other purpose than to question the electorates intelligence.

Rb

passive wrote: »

Oh, and rb, you'll be voting no for "this reason alone," really? All the dozens of other reasons you've constructed around your position don't matter anymore?

As I said, should it be an issue i.e if a referendum is rushed through in an effort to dodge what is coming in Britain, I won't even be considering the text while marking my preference on the ballot paper.

turgon wrote: »

Because voting No will change that I suppose?

If, and remember this is theoretical, they were to push a referendum on us and we again voted no, I can't imagine they could get a third in in time.

I said in another post quite a while ago how tired of the behaviour of the EU I am beginning to become, should they go further and pull such transparent BS in the near future then it will seal my vote on the matter once and for all, at a time when I'm re-considering the merits/de-merits of the text itself.

Rb

Ok, no offense Spraoi but crazy people such as yourself not only make me ashamed to be a No voter/No promoter but it also does damage to the "side".

Vote No, by all means, but all this crazy jibberish about Adolf Hitler and Michael Collins really needs to be stopped.

Also, to address;

It is interesting that Kathy Sinnott, Patricia Mc Kenna, Declan Ganley and Mary Lou Mc Donald were not given as much press or media attention in these elections compared to the Pro Lisbon side.

Kathy Sinnott is a nutjob and a thief, Declan Ganley cannot and should not be trusted nor should his entire organisation and Mary Lou McDonald is the once reasonable face of the political front of a terrorist organisation who has absolutely disgraced the country with her lack of appearances in the EU.

They do not deserve media coverage.

Again, no offense intended but do us all a favour and just quit.

conchubhar1

humanji wrote: »

Is it not more of an insult to democracy for the minority to decide the fate of the majority?

give the uk the vote and france and others if you want


we decide for ourselves, the outcome, if no ,restricts it passing because other countries decided not to put it to the people.

SkepticOne

conchubhar1 wrote: »

give the uk the vote and france and others if you want

They tried allowing the French to vote before with the previous constitutional treaty. The results were not satisfactory.

Rabble

I understand Brian Cowen and a top level ministerial team are flying over to Brussels to clarify the matter because although Barroso said jump he failed to specify how high.

brianthebard

humanji wrote: »

Is it not more of an insult to democracy for the minority to decide the fate of the majority?

Sigh-one minute the yes side say that voting no because the rest of the EU citizenry didn't get a vote is silly and undemocratic, but when the yes side don't get their way, the Irish vote is a minority forcing its will on a majority, and this is also undemocratic.
Are we a sovereign state, or a part of an international super state? If the former, there is not insult to democracy. A simple plebiscite was held, your side lost. (Supposedly) end of. If the latter, then all the more reason to vote no- I wasn't consulted about becoming part of a EU super state.

djpbarry

Rb wrote: »

As I said, should it be an issue i.e if a referendum is rushed through in an effort to dodge what is coming in Britain, I won't even be considering the text while marking my preference on the ballot paper.

And how do you decide whether the referendum has been ‘rushed through’ or not?

brianthebard wrote: »

Sigh-one minute the yes side say that voting no because the rest of the EU citizenry didn't get a vote is silly and undemocratic, but when the yes side don't get their way, the Irish vote is a minority forcing its will on a majority, and this is also undemocratic.

I think the point is it’s rather ambitious for certain people to think that we can hold the EU to ransom indefinitely. If we again refuse to ratify Lisbon, then it is quite likely (in my opinion) that the rest of the EU will press ahead without us (and the UK, perhaps). What exactly that will entail with regard to our future relationship with the EU, I really can’t say, as Ireland doesn’t even seem to be able to agree on the downsides of Lisbon, let alone the downsides of the EU.

Having said that, at this point in time, I would be somewhat surprised if we were to return a second ‘No’ vote, especially with Libertas (seemingly) out of the picture (who will fill the void?).

P. Breathnach

brianthebard wrote: »

...Are we a sovereign state, or a part of an international super state? ...

That's a false dichotomy.

Of course we are a sovereign state, but we cannot exercise that sovereignty as if we had no connection with the rest of the world. What we need to do is work out how we relate to other countries, and we cannot make such decisions unilaterally.