without contract, advice please

BArra

i am in a situation where i have/had a 6 month contract with a company which expired recently. i have done well in my position and get a good bit of praise from managment.

they now want to keep me on as cover for another lady who has gone off on maternity leave for another 6 months

now the managment are not willing/able to amend my contract to state the new terms/ timeframe, as it is not the right "time" for the highend managment to approve it due to the "R" word and so forth.

i was told that my HR dept was contacted and that my contract which had an expiry date that has now passed was changed to an open ended contract....

fine i thought, so i requested a copy of this new contract, to which i was denied, so it tells me HR were never contacted at all :rolleyes:


now where do i stand if i reach 12 months with the company?

what rights will i have then? would i be classified as a perminant employee?

( bearing in mind i now have an expired contract, and thus am working without a contract i think? where do i stand at all)

its not a nice situation to be in, and im stuck between a rock and a hard place, i really cant go back to my immediate managment as i have hassled them already a few times and this is the outcome i got back, further annoyance to them i really dont feel great about persueing

im very happy in the job and dont want to burn bridges by doing something stupid like going behind backs, as im glad to be working and in a job, but a bit peeved that im working my arse off, which they have seen and comment on, and in return am getting no real loyalty to me back, as regard a firm contract for my own security, its a feckin expired contract i have now

appreciate any advice on this

Prenderb

My first piece of advice is to ring your local citizen's advice bureau, who'll help you out with this more definitely and surely, certainly better than me!

My thoughts for what it's worth, is that while there's no contract if both parties haven't agreed to it - i.e. if you've not agreed to any new terms, or extended (open-ended?) contract it doesn't exist, maybe you're implying consent to the contract by continuing to work there for a while beyond the end of the old contract, if you know what I mean. My view is that if they continue to pay you they'll be implying a continuation of the contract, as will you if you continue to work there, though the end of the contract mightn't be as clear.

Did you contact the HR department yourself and request a copy of the new document, or clarification of your position? I'd be surprised if they didn't help - it sounds like you've asked your line manager to do that and s/he hasn't?

What are your options? I'd say the best bet is to continue to work with the contract terms as extended (with the potential to be let go at short notice, maybe), particularly if nothing else has changed at the job - after all, you may not have any alternative work to go to in this climate.

The situation doesn't really change as far as i know just because you worked there for 12 months - you won't automatically be considered "permanent," though I stand to be corrected. The only thing that'll probably changed is that you may be entitled to be treated the same way as a permanent employee as regards notice and or redundancy.

Not an expert - just my 2p, which I think you asked for!

BArra

thanks for ur 2c

yea i contacted my line manager, and in turn i contacted the district manager who is the highest up person who i have somewhat of a direct face to face contact with. (i work in a large multinational)

this person was the one who told me of keeping me on for a further 6 months, also stated as above it wasnt the best time to be looking for new contracts due to cutbacks and so on. all i was given was the persons "word" on the further six months, and the denial of being issued a new contract.

i could contact HR, but i would be fairly sure that since they have not been contacted, they would speak to my district manager to get clarification or indeed go further and above his head

this would cause me problems i would say, because as far as the district manager is concerned, this is a non issue anymore, if i went to them, he would be contacted more than likely and the **** could hit the fans, i dont want to burn bridges


i was under the impression that if i hit 12 months work with them, i would be considered fulltime perminant, and thus by law be entitled to my position and a fully fledged contract stating this. ( this is something my district manager even said to me, as regards hitting 12 months but i am just not sure if it is fact or not)

any more opinion appreciated

dade

BArra wrote: »

i was under the impression that if i hit 12 months work with them, i would be considered full time permanent, and thus by law be entitled to my position and a fully fledged contract stating this.

my understanding is that if it hits the 12 months then you have protection from the law in terms of unfair dismissal etc. not sure if the term Permanent is in that, its a vague term, were i work you're considered permanent after completing a 6 month probation without extension of that probation. in other places its 12 months. so i guess the permanent status depends on the company.

in relation to your contract I'd see you in a rather dodgy position, your previous contract has expired so any rights, benefits etc under that contract could suddenly vanish. your boss maybe telling you not to worry coz he has work at the moment and feels it may dry up and is hoping he can just let you go coz there's no contract. at the end of the day an extension of an existing contract is no big deal, both parties sign an agreement top extend the date under the same conditions f pay and benefits etc so harping on about the rescission sounds like BS to me.

personally I'd put an email in to the manager asking for a copy of your contract, if he stone walled I'd take it to HR. but that's just me.

BArra

alrite, thanks

yeah its a sticky one alrite.... and i just dont know what to do

does anyone else have any insight into the 12 month issue?

Jo King

The o/p's immediate bosses might not want to have paperwork drawn up for another contract. The reason could be that they will be told to fire the o/p and engage a new employee. There could be a company wide embargo on new hirings. If the o/p keeps mouthing about a contract he may get fired. If he keeps quiet he may manage to be kept on if another vacancy arise during the maternity leave period. The o/p has nothing to gain by kicking up about a contract and may have a lot to lose.
If the o/p gets a fixed term contract he will have no case if he is terminated at the expiry. If he has no contract and reaches a full years service he may have a case for unfair dismissal.
The o/p should keep his mouth shut and see how things work out. If he gets the offer of a job elsewhere things might change.

gerrycollins

for your own benefit start to send emails and keep records otherwise if it got nasty you have no proof etc.

However with your contract the company is obliged to give you a new contract. Has your work duties as mentioned in the first contract changed? its actually in the companies interest to do so. an "open ended" contract is a recepie for disaster for them.

if so then your on a new contract as you are doing new work.

If they do give you a contract of 6 months, backdated or whatever, then when its over you have no come back on the "post 12 months employment" of legal protection as they are two seperate contracts almost as if you have completed one contract and commenced another.

companies do this from time to time just so it appears that they are not letting people go just their contract is finished.

BArra

thanks for the input people, yes i have been told there is an embargo on new hiring, anyone that leaves would not be replaced. and there is a lot of cross training going on.

so im leaning towards keeping my mouth shut and aiming to hit 12months... fingers crossed :pac:

if i reach 12 months with the company, where would i stand legally? would they be obliged to give me a perm position even though i reached that milestone without any contract?

will i gain any legal protection hitting 12 months?

cheers

Mrs OBumble

Jo King wrote: »

The o/p's immediate bosses might not want to have paperwork drawn up for another contract. The reason could be that they will be told to fire the o/p and engage a new employee. There could be a company wide embargo on new hirings. If the o/p keeps mouthing about a contract he may get fired. If he keeps quiet he may manage to be kept on if another vacancy arise during the maternity leave period. The o/p has nothing to gain by kicking up about a contract and may have a lot to lose.
If the o/p gets a fixed term contract he will have no case if he is terminated at the expiry. If he has no contract and reaches a full years service he may have a case for unfair dismissal.
The o/p should keep his mouth shut and see how things work out. If he gets the offer of a job elsewhere things might change.

This is sound advice.

OP: your manager is breaking the HR rules, and potentially creating a mess that HR will have to clean up later. However, given the current job market, this mess is going pretty much in your favour: you continue to have a job when you otherwise wouldn't, you get PRSI "stamps", and more than likely all your existing terms/conditions will continue as they are. You also build a relationship with your current manager that may well turn them into a valuable referee when you're job hunting in future. And you're on-site and able to spot any other openings that come up when the hiring "freeze" thaws.

No one can tell for certain what will happen when you get to 12 months. My guess is that they could no longer let you go with no notice: instead they would have to make your position redundant. (But that's not difficult if you don't actually have a position )

Provided you have some paperwork proving you were working for them all along (eg payslips, obvious wage payments into your bank account), this is a case when less paperwork might actually be in your favour.

If problems arise, then you might need to pursue the contract, but other than that I cannot see what you would gain: not having the paperwork in place isn't any more scary than having it but knowing that you can be let go at any moment (which is the reality under Irish employment law, even if you have completed a shorter "probation").

The only possible hitch will be if HR/Payroll notice that they were supposed to have stopped paying you, and query this with your boss: hopefully s/he knows enough about the checks in the system to know that this won't occur. And if they are copped-on enough to notice it, they will realise that they do need to pay you for the actual time worked.