The Irish Goverment needs to BanOnline poker.

eagle eye

happyoutscan wrote: »

Q1. Not as much as the coercion between the government, banks and developers.

I asked how much is it costing the Irish economy. I didn't ask you to compare it to somthing else.

happyoutscan wrote: »

Q2. What jobs?

The online support jobs. There are no dealers at tables. I'm just wondering if we would have more casinos around the county with more jobs for card dealers if there was no online poker. I asked a question again, I didn't give an answer.

happyoutscan wrote: »

Q3. Unsure but will google after i bring out the garbage.

You should have thown your reply in the garbage rather than posting it.

happyoutscan wrote: »

Q4. By being half-decent and responsible parents, which should be a given but in many cases isn't. Why is it my fault if people can't look after their offspring?

So if the parents are not computer literate then the kids should not have access to computers. Is that your answer? How easy is it to click an x when you hear somebody coming? How easy is it to hide your computer history and programs even from moderately computer savvy parents?

happyoutscan wrote: »

Q5. Cheating programs and bots are nonsense. Reputable poker sites (Fulltilt, Partypoker to name 2) have good reputations. Table coercion etc can be easily spotted through hand histories or by being half-intelligent if you are at that table. If you're worried about cheating then you should have a look at the horse racing industry. Cheating is a fact of life, every facet of life.

Now here we see that you do not have a clue what you are talking about. Unless somebody is stupid its impossible to ascertain that people are cheating over a small sample of hands. It would take hundreds of thousands of hands to catch a professional cheat. Even then you cannot be certain that he is in fact cheating.
Online gambling as a whole is a business I would shut down. The underage thing applies at every level of online gambling.
Bots do exist and are in use in online poker.
Cheating programs I don't know much about, but then again aren't bots cheating online programs?

trailerparkboy

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Quick question Kayroo how much have you won gambling at poker? IM assuming you win sense nobody looses at poker since its a game of skill.

I didn't realise the entire mathematical basis of poker was determined by whether or not I was a winner? Ad hominem arguments are so trite don't you agree?

For what it's worth I am a reasonably consistent winner in live 1/2 PLHE. (Pot Limit Hold 'Em for the uninitiated with 1 and 2 euro blinds). Online I am still learning the game but am a steady winner at micro-stakes though I am a casual player and do not purport to be anything more than that.

You should try reading this, this and perhaps this and then tell me that it's a game of luck.

Oh, and you should note that while those are all important concepts they are not even close to the truly important mathematical concepts involved which, I am forced to assume, may be somewhat beyond you.

trailerparkboy

:rolleyes: you will do well in the long term, the poker rooms must love you as your giving them a nice little earner with no prospect of winning in the long term.

jhegarty

trailerparkboy wrote: »

:rolleyes: you will do well in the long term, the poker rooms must love you as your giving them a nice little earner with no prospect of winning in the long term.

Saying that poker is a game of skill is not the same as saying everyone wins.

I know that soccer is a game of skill. Doesn't mean I will be selected to play for Ireland.

trailerparkboy

My many thanks to all the people who have thanked my orignal post. I intent on lobbying TDS on this Issue and going on to talk to the media about the damage that poker is doing to Ireland. Im just starting at the moment but my intention is to make a website and setup a lobbying organisation similiar to the ones that deal with drinking.

trailerparkboy

trailerparkboy wrote: »

My many thanks to all the people who have thanked my orignal post. I intent on lobbying TDS on this Issue and going on to talk to the media about the damage that poker is doing to Ireland. Im just starting at the moment but my intention is to make a website and setup a lobbying organisation similiar to the ones that deal with drinking.

I'm sure your logical and well thought out arguments will work. Your ability to engage the issue and really grasp the points is truly impressive.

trailerparkboy

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure your logical and well thought out arguments will work. Your ability to engage the issue and really grasp the points is truly impressive.

Most people in Ireland will know that poker is gambling and that gamblers need help.
Im sure its what every father wants for his son, to play poker. Would you recomend it to your son? I highly doubt it.

jhegarty

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Most people in Ireland will know that poker is gambling and that gamblers need help.
Im sure its what every father wants for his son, to play poker. Would you recomend it to your son? I highly doubt it.

So you will be trying to get betting on sports banned too ?

happyoutscan

eagle eye wrote: »

I asked how much is it costing the Irish economy. I didn't ask you to compare it to somthing else.

The online support jobs. There are no dealers at tables. I'm just wondering if we would have more casinos around the county with more jobs for card dealers if there was no online poker. I asked a question again, I didn't give an answer.

You should have thown your reply in the garbage rather than posting it.

So if the parents are not computer literate then the kids should not have access to computers. Is that your answer? How easy is it to click an x when you hear somebody coming? How easy is it to hide your computer history and programs even from moderately computer savvy parents?

Now here we see that you do not have a clue what you are talking about. Unless somebody is stupid its impossible to ascertain that people are cheating over a small sample of hands. It would take hundreds of thousands of hands to catch a professional cheat. Even then you cannot be certain that he is in fact cheating.
Online gambling as a whole is a business I would shut down. The underage thing applies at every level of online gambling.
Bots do exist and are in use in online poker.
Cheating programs I don't know much about, but then again aren't bots cheating online programs?

Seeing as you know how to google (from your initial post) why don't you answer your own questions for us here?

If I may be so bold to ask you would you support more casinos in place of online gambling? I suppose that way daddy and mommy wouldn't have to worry about sonnyboy playing online as they'd be off in the casino. What about horseracing, what percentage of punters are winners there? Is it better than 5% and if so is it because of 'being in the know'?. Cheating is everywhere unfortunately, but I have a lot more faith in spending a tenner in a MTT and getting a return (skill?) than putting it on a horse (can I mention a few dodgy jockeys?).

No one else bothered to attempt to answer your questions, probably because they had better sense so get over it.

trailerparkboy

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Most people in Ireland will know that poker is gambling

Thomas Paine once wrote:

"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom".

In essence he was criticising the horrid mistake of "conventional wisdom". Everyone knew the earth was flat at one stage too. Does that mean they were correct or ill-informed?

In your case there is a shocking lack of knowledge underlining your posts. Educate yourself, then come back to me.

sink

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Most people in Ireland will know that poker is gambling and that gamblers need help.
Im sure its what every father wants for his son, to play poker. Would you recomend it to your son? I highly doubt it.

Would you recommend investing in the stock market without first doing the ground work i.e educating oneself on the best techniques, practising them for months with simulated trades. Then start with small amounts and only invest what you can afford to loose, slowly building up a nice portfolio of shares. If you dive straight into the deep end of the stock market you can literally end up loosing your house. 90% of the people who have ever traded in stocks have lost money because they didn't do the ground work. Poker is very similar.

trailerparkboy

Deleted User wrote: »

Thomas Paine once wrote:

"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom".

In essence he was criticising the horrid mistake of "conventional wisdom". Everyone knew the earth was flat at one stage too. Does that mean they were correct or ill-informed?

In your case there is a shocking lack of knowledge underlining your posts. Educate yourself, then come back to me.

Why dont you admit that you have lost money playing poker? Of course you wont admit it as most gamblers will always tell you how much they have won. And admit that everybody that plays poker losses in the long run? If you cant admit that i think there is no hope for you.

jhegarty

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Why dont you admit that you have lost money playing poker? Of course you wont admit it as most gamblers will always tell you how much they have won. And admit that everybody that plays poker losses in the long run? If you cant admit that i think there is no hope for you.

How does everyone loose ?


That makes no sense. Do you even understand how poker works ?

partyatmygaff

Don't ban poker.


Saying everyone loses is not true. A person with skill and luck can play poker all their life without a single loss, unlikely but possible. Surely professionals and experienced players bet what they are prepared to lose.
Freedom of choice. Lets not go backwards.

trailerparkboy

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Why dont you admit that you have lost money playing poker? Of course you wont admit it as most gamblers will always tell you how much they have won. And admit that everybody that plays poker losses in the long run? If you cant admit that i think there is no hope for you.

Why are you so hung up on me? Surely I have nothing to do with it? Even if I were a loser that does not prove the game is not one of skill. I would be a long term loser if I were to try my hand at being a pro tennis player but that does not mean that tennis is not a game of skill.

So have you anything sensible to say on this issue or would you like to continue this foolish ad hominem argument? (To save you having to google it that means "arguing the man")

Slash/ED

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are you so hung up on me? Surely I have nothing to do with it? Even if I were a loser that does not prove the game is not one of skill. I would be a long term loser if I were to try my hand at being a pro tennis player but that does not mean that tennis is not a game of skill.

So have you anything sensible to say on this issue or would you like to continue this foolish ad hominem argument? (To save you having to google it that means "arguing the man")

I don't know Keith, I've seen you lose a pot or two in my time. Proof that poker is 100% luck imo. If it wasn't Kayroo would have all of the money in the entire world. He doesn't, so it can't be.

Slash/ED

Slash/ED wrote: »

I don't know Keith, I've seen you lose a pot or two in my time. Proof that poker is 100% luck imo. If it wasn't Kayroo would have all of the money in the entire world. He doesn't, so it can't be.

Ha, I said I could beat 1/2 Live PLHE. Not that I was good at poker:D

gimme5minutes

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Why dont you admit that you have lost money playing poker? Of course you wont admit it as most gamblers will always tell you how much they have won. And admit that everybody that plays poker losses in the long run? If you cant admit that i think there is no hope for you.

What's going on, has the Taliban infiltrated boards.ie? I have read alot of shoite on boards.ie down the years but the stuff you are posting here is coming close to setting a whole new standard of shoite. It is clear as day you are bitter and angry because YOU are a problem gambler who blew all his money. Your the one with the problem not everyone else. You must be fairly young if you whining like a little girl over this and are going on about getting online poker banned because you blew your money. Lets deprive everyone of something they enjoy of their own free will because you blew your money like a fool. My advice to you is to stop whinging, act like a man and take it on the chin.

This stuff about no one winning is nonsense. How do I know? Because I won myself. Over the course of 2 years I played online professionally and I quit when I saw the way the game was heading with the introduction of all the training sites and the software such as pokertracker. I could see myself becoming a marginal loser in the game over the long term, which basically means I could see myself being a losing player so I got out. Something you yourself probably should have thought about. I know guys who blew tens of thousands and go broke because they couldn't face the fact that they were no longer able to cut it and be winning players. You obviously know feck all about life as a poker player anyway if you blew your 14K role in two weeks. Ever hear of bankroll management, the first requirement necessary to win at online poker. You could not go broke in two weeks if you exercised proper bankroll management and dropped down stakes when your roll fell below a certain threshold.

Poker is no longer easy money and requires serious study and discipline. A .5/1 game today is tougher than a 5/10 game a 3 years ago. Considerably tougher. I came out with about €140K profit from my time as a full time player and I have since blown it on crap as I was very naieve with money. It was an expensive lesson. I knew guys who were playing at the same time who were making alot more than me and that are still playing. There are lots of players out there making a living playing poker and some are making an absolute fortune. I no longer play because as I said, I figure I am probably a loser due to the level of skill and discipline in today's games and I would be just gambling my money if I sat at a table these days. And I dont like to gamble.

Let me ask you a question you keep dodging. Do you think the following should also be banned as they are causing far far more damage to society than online poker.
alcohol
cigarettes
bookmakers
cars

I dont need to explain the damage caused by the first two. But about the second two Id like to say - their is an absolutely massive amount of money being blown by problem gambers in ireland betting on sports, easily dwarfing the amount of money that is being lost through online poker. The amount of people who are winning long term betting on sports is extremely low, probably less than 2% or even 1%. There are people who are beating the bookmakers though, I know of one or two and they are highly educated and very intelligent and treat it like a full time job. They would be in the top 1% when it comes to mathematical intelligence. But the other 99% of the population is blowing hundereds of millions, if not over a billion, betting on sports in ireland every year.

Why not ban cars....? There is a certain % drivers who will consistently engage in speeding and/or drink driving and these drivers are killing large numbers of citizens every year because of their disregard for the rules of the road.

So rather than dodging the question again, tell me, seeing as how you are so concerned about the welfare of Irish society, would you like to ban things that are causing far more damage to the public than online poker...would you be looking to ban alcohol, cigarerettes, bookmakers and cars?

nitrogen

The numbers thanking the OP's thread, thus being against liberty, is very worrying. Are any of you actually aware of what you are supporting? I suggest you read 1984.

Let's hope none of you get into power!

Slash/ED

nitrogen wrote: »

The numbers thanking the OP's thread, thus being against liberty, is very worrying. Are any of you actually aware of what you are supporting? I suggest you read 1984.

Let's hope none of you get into power!

Most if not all of the thankers are notoriously anti poker and pretty much all of them are losing degenerate gamblers.

nitrogen

nitrogen wrote: »

The numbers thanking the OP's thread, thus being against liberty, is very worrying. Are any of you actually aware of what you are supporting? I suggest you read 1984.

Let's hope none of you get into power!

Might want to check how many of those people have posted in the strategy threads on the poker forum.

They are mostly ironic thanks. The OP is clearly speaking in total absence of knowledge and as such cannot be taken seriously.

He has addressed none of the issues put to him by any of the posters here and has simply insulted anyone who argues against him by calling them problem gamblers. This thread is mostly done now. Since trailerparkboy has not made a single cogent point I must conclude there is nothing more to discuss.

Red Devil

Completely over the top statements and little homework, before making such outbursts

How much is online poker costing the Irish economy?

Costing? Hmmm, generating more likely, we already ahve gambling operators and payment service providors supporting on of the fastest growin global industries.

Industry-sponsored reports have claimed that direct regulation in Ireland could generate up to €280 million for the economy and create 13,000 new jobs by 2020.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0302/1224242083984.html

Would the banning of online poker result in more or less jobs?
Less and direct it to poorly regulated markets.

What reputable firms have audited online poker companies?

The businesses themselves are PLCs and are all audited under standard company law.

To ensure the validity of products offered the games are audited by testing companies. See below.

How can we make sure that underrage children are not playing?

All reputable Gambling operators complete Know Your Customer checks who use payment options that could be available to under 18’s and random age verification checks on customers using other forms of funding mechanisms.

Under the terms of a UK, Maltese, Isle of Man, Channel islands gambling licence this is standard practice and no reputable business would want to be associated with underage gambling.

How can we make sure that cheating is not prevalent?

Again all reputable businesses will be audited by International Standards Organization (ISO) Accredited companies in relation to house edge and randon number generation. For example a quick glance at Paddy Power confirms they are audited by www.tstglobal.com/

sceptre

Informed opinion, cheers Red Devil.

Just a quick note with my accounting hat on that standard auditing procedure wouldn't detect the operation of games in a fraudulent way - the financial auditor's role is to state that company accounts are prepared in a manner accurately reflecting the financial state of the company in question, if they are accurate (it's been so long that I don't remember individual financial reporting standards but I think it's under FRS10 or 11 but either way the old adage about a financial auditor being a watchdog rather than a bloodhound holds true).

However, assuming that companies like Technical Systems Testing that you've linked to are reputable (and I think it's reasonable to assume they are), it's reasonable from that to assume that games run by companies audited under their purview are run in a fair manner.

As a side-note, ISO doesn't stand for "International Standards Organisation" and I don't know how many times I've heard college lecturers state that it does. The name of the organisation is the International Organisation for Standardisation, the ISO part comes from the Greek word "isos", which means "equal" and is pronounced as a word. As a computer science student, it's one of those personal bugbears that I get pernickity about:) - side-note, doesn't affect your excellent contribution to the discussion.

Ste05

Some really good posts in here explaining Poker, even from people who I don't recognise from the Poker forum, it's an absolute breath of fresh air to me to see that it's not just people who are really into the game and spend the huge amount of time required learning the nuances of the game in order to compete at the levels of competence in the online Poker world ATM, who understand that Poker is different from other Casino games and other forms of Gambling.

Whether or not it should be banned is a stupid argument really, for all the great reasons posted previously, all I'll say is, thank god we live in a truly free country where people are allowed to do what they want with their money and time; where we are trusted to have a little self discipline, and that the acts of a few degenerates don't impact on the rest of society, much like alcohol, driving and basically everything that a person can become addicted to that can cause them to lose control of their life. And not a country that slips in Legislation on the back of a very important piece of Law so that no-one can vote against it without committing political suicide by making themselves look like they care not a jot about the security of the Country. (The Law's banning payment processors from dealing with on-line Poker and Gambling sites was piggy backed onto the Safe Port Act at the last moment: "The Security and Accountability For Every Port Act of 2006 (or SAFE Port Act, Pub.L. 109-347) was an Act of Congress in the United States covering port security and to which an online gambling measure was added at the last moment. The House and Senate passed the conference report on September 30, 2006, and President Bush signed the Act into law on October 13, 2006."

It's dreadful what happened to TPB, if it even did happen... we all know alot of people on the internet have fun trying to gain attention and provoking a reaction, if this was infact his intention then he has been VERY successful and has been well fed today, if that was not his intention then hopefully he will seek help from Gamblers Anonomous as again thankfully there are people in the country who try to help people that can't help themselves, the first step for him would be to realise he has a problem. But if as was referred to above his choice of gambling was to play high stakes Chess Matches, Horse Racing or the National Lottery the fact would remain that it is his problem and not one for the Government to help him with by restricting the freedoms and enjoyment of the rest of the populace.

trailerparkboy

Deleted User wrote: »

Might want to check how many of those people have posted in the strategy threads on the poker forum.

They are mostly ironic thanks. The OP is clearly speaking in total absence of knowledge and as such cannot be taken seriously.

Absence of knowledge? no i think thats you. Your promoting a game that is a gambling game where you are betting money simple as that, you never answered my question, can you win long term at poker? why wont you answer the question. The answer is simple no you cannot because poker is gambling and you will never win at gambling long term, if anyone thinks they can they are only deluding themselves.

civildefence

Jimdagym wrote: »

Bad comparison. When you back a horse, you have no influence over the outcome. Not the same in poker.

It's still an acquired skill like poker, if you know your horses, jockeys, trainers and study form, you can pick a winner. Horses like Ravens Pass and Kauto Star don't win races purely by chance.

trailerparkboy

Hers a great link http://www.gamblingfactsandfictions.com/id21.htm maybe some of the poker players better educate themselves here instead of been brainwashed by the marketing and Glamour of online poker which it seems the poker rooms have done such a good job at espically appealing to the young male demograph who have neither the sense nor the life experience to know how to handle such gambling.

nitrogen

civildefence wrote: »

It's still an acquired skill like poker, if you know your horses, jockeys, trainers and study form, you can pick a winner. Horses like Ravens Pass and Kauto Star don't win races purely by chance.

You have a point, but what differentiates the two is that a poker player can give input to the game and affect the way other players play. A punter can only observe and make a guess on the data he has acquired - he can not contribute to the outcome of that horse race.

civildefence

nitrogen wrote: »

You have a point, but what differentiates the two is that a poker player can give input to the game and affect the way other players play. A punter can only observe and make a guess on the data he has acquired - he can not contribute to the outcome of that horse race.

I agree with you in that respect

eagle eye

nitrogen wrote: »

You have a point, but what differentiates the two is that a poker player can give input to the game and affect the way other players play.

Yes and a cheat can operate on four different accounts and affect the game by having seats at one table.

nitrogen wrote: »

A punter can only observe and make a guess on the data he has acquired - he can not contribute to the outcome of that horse race.

Thats correct. However they are very similar in that self-control and bankroll management are a crucial part of being successful at either.