The Irish Goverment needs to BanOnline poker.

eagle eye

Red Devil wrote: »

Completely over the top statements and little homework, before making such outbursts

How much is online poker costing the Irish economy?

Costing? Hmmm, generating more likely, we already ahve gambling operators and payment service providors supporting on of the fastest growin global industries.

So you say its generating money. Can you put figures up to prove that please and links? Can you tell me also how much money is being lost from our economy through online gambling?
I mean otherwise how are we to believe what you say?

Red Devil wrote: »

Industry-sponsored reports have claimed that direct regulation in Ireland could generate up to €280 million for the economy and create 13,000 new jobs by 2020.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0302/1224242083984.html

Would the banning of online poker result in more or less jobs?
Less and direct it to poorly regulated markets.

An interesting article and mentioned numerous times is about protecting the underage and regulating the industry.
And as you say that was an industry sponsored report.

Red Devil wrote: »

What reputable firms have audited online poker companies?
The businesses themselves are PLCs and are all audited under standard company law.

To ensure the validity of products offered the games are audited by testing companies. See below.

How can we make sure that underrage children are not playing?
All reputable Gambling operators complete Know Your Customer checks who use payment options that could be available to under 18’s and random age verification checks on customers using other forms of funding mechanisms.

Under the terms of a UK, Maltese, Isle of Man, Channel islands gambling licence this is standard practice and no reputable business would want to be associated with underage gambling.

Verification checks are not required to deposit money or play poker on any site.
Verification checks are only ever used when a person wishes to make a withdrawal.
Can you name a site that uses verification checks before you make a deposit? And what sort of verification do they require?

Red Devil wrote: »

How can we make sure that cheating is not prevalent?
Again all reputable businesses will be audited by International Standards Organization (ISO) Accredited companies in relation to house edge and randon number generation. For example a quick glance at Paddy Power confirms they are audited by www.tstglobal.com/

Are tstglobal an ISO or IEC accredited company? I couldn't find that anywhere.
And its become very clear over the past two to three years that there is more cheating going on that any of us thought was the case.
I'd love to go and prove that you can cheat and get away with it, but you are robbing other people and even if I did prove it, I'd probably end up getting blacklisted everywhere rather than being respected for proving it.
Interestingly you mention Paddypower who had a game on their site about two years ago(I'm not sure if its still there or not) which was based on the tv gameshow deal or no deal. I had a friend who got seriously addicted to this game for a short while. I showed him that the game was not real. Let me explain, you could start the game and remove your internet connection and continue to play the game to a conclusion. Once you had made your mistake and pick the wrong box you could start your internet connection again and the game returned to the state it was in before the connection was severed. You could pick all the boxes that were not picked before and you would still end up with the same result.
Now how on earth does that happen, did tstglobal not pick this up?

sceptre

eagle eye wrote: »

Are tstglobal an ISO or IEC accredited company? I couldn't find that anywhere.

Apparently so. Knowing nothing about the company I clicked on "Company info" and there it was.

eagle eye

sceptre wrote: »

Apparently so. Knowing nothing about the company I clicked on "Company info" and there it was.

In fairness you didn't just click on company info and there it was, you had to look around a bit. But fair play it is there.

sceptre

eagle eye wrote: »

In fairness you didn't just click on company info and there it was, you had to look around a bit. But fair play it is there.

No, I clicked on company info and it's there as an obvious link on the left. I don't have time to be looking around:)

Akrasia

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Thats right sure it is :rolleyes: keep thinking that and you will be sure to be a millionaire. so what do you call it when you put money on something? Thats right its called gambling.

Quick question Kayroo how much have you won gambling at poker? IM assuming you win sense nobody looses at poker since its a game of skill.

The reason you lost all your money was because it appears like you routinely went all in on AA and then complained about 'bad beats' when people picked up straights or 3 of a kinds.

If you knew anything about poker you would realise that AA is only a pair and as such, is still one of the worst hands in poker. Many many people have lost their shirt to AA because better players saw the value in suited connectors (especially if they're in position and have a dominant chip lead)

Hookey

The OP reminds me of that idiot in the UK who sued William Hill because they let him gamble (he lost). People should take responsibility for their own actions.

In reality, if you must gamble (I don't, because I worked in the industry for a couple of years and the house always wins in the end) then online usually presents better odds than other types. Most of the offshore casino and "soft" gaming sites (bingo, slots etc.) set their odds engines to return a 90-95% payout. They can work on a 5% margin because of the sheer volume of bets. Physical casinos or state-registered online sites are required by law to set their odds much lower (in Europe most countries have state-owned gaming monopolies often in conjunction with their lottery), often as low as 50%. So ironically "official" gambling sites are worse than ones run out of Antigua or Gibraltar etc.

The reason the Americans come down so hard on it has absolutely nothing to do with morality and protecting consumers as it has to do with the lobbying powers of US casino owners. If the US casinos open up online gambling themselves they'd also have to open to offshore operators (under WTO agreements that the US is already in breach of), so they use the Wire Act and right-wing red-staters to keep it locked down.

trailerparkboy

trailerparkboy wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Might want to check how many of those people have posted in the strategy threads on the poker forum.

They are mostly ironic thanks. The OP is clearly speaking in total absence of knowledge and as such cannot be taken seriously.

Absence of knowledge? no i think thats you. Your promoting a game that is a gambling game where you are betting money simple as that, you never answered my question, can you win long term at poker? why wont you answer the question. The answer is simple no you cannot because poker is gambling and you will never win at gambling long term, if anyone thinks they can they are only deluding themselves.

Why don't you answer the question that's been asked about 20 times in this thread. Should all bookies be closed and all gambling banned in your opinion?

Pal

belgowho wrote: »

Eh no, he knows how to play poker. You clearly dont

You know nothing about me.
How can you say that ?

Fact is that it is very nearly impossible to conclusively show or prove that skill wins out in poker over luck because the latter is arbitrary and random.

To state otherwise is 'questionable' as I said.
Perhaps 'debatable' might have been a better word.

Yes there are good players and bad players but to ridicule someone with an ignorance tag because you don't agree with their point of view is clearly unacceptable.

As to your contention that I 'clearly dont' know anything about poker, you are very wrong.

Akrasia

eagle eye wrote: »

Yes and a cheat can operate on four different accounts and affect the game by having seats at one table.

Thats correct. However they are very similar in that self-control and bankroll management are a crucial part of being successful at either.

With gambling on horses, the bookie sets the odds so that if you gamble long enough, you will always lose. (the good wins are more than offset by the many horses that should have won on paper, but got away)

With Poker, you can controll your own odds by only betting when you have a higher than even chance of making a profit over the long term. YOU're always going to lose to a bad beat, but in turn, you'll win sometimes because of a lucky draw. In the long term, a good player will win more than he loses (unless he gets ahead of himself and blows it all on one hand)

happyoutscan

eagle eye wrote: »

Interestingly you mention Paddypower who had a game on their site about two years ago(I'm not sure if its still there or not) which was based on the tv gameshow deal or no deal. I had a friend who got seriously addicted to this game for a short while. I showed him that the game was not real. Let me explain, you could start the game and remove your internet connection and continue to play the game to a conclusion. Once you had made your mistake and pick the wrong box you could start your internet connection again and the game returned to the state it was in before the connection was severed. You could pick all the boxes that were not picked before and you would still end up with the same result.
Now how on earth does that happen, did tstglobal not pick this up?

Totally irrelevant, we are discussing online poker, not online casino slots or the other casino games on offer. I will say though, I do not like these at all because your against the computer and not people.

At least in poker it's easy to take money off PEOPLE who do not know what they are doing.

gimme5minutes

eagle eye wrote: »

So you say its generating money. Can you put figures up to prove that please and links? Can you tell me also how much money is being lost from our economy through online gambling?
I mean otherwise how are we to believe what you say?

Id like to hear your answer to the following question. Seeing as how trailerparkboy just avoided it again and undermined himself even more. Should alchohol, cigarettes and bookmakers be banned in Ireland? These things take a huge amount of money from the Irish public, way way more than online poker ever has or will. Cigarettes and alcohol are also the cause, directly and indirectly, of a huge number of deaths in Irish society every year which put them an another level altogether danger-wise to bookmakers and online poker.

Although they do contribute tax to the exchequer. The same as the poker sites that are based here contribute tax, for example paddypower, boylesports and full tilt. So if you have such a problem with online poker and people exercising their free will in playing it, I take it you must have an even bigger problem with people enjoying things like alcohol, cigarettes and bookmakers of their own free will? Or is there some reason why it is ok to enjoy these activities of your own free will while it's not ok to enjoy online poker?

TimHanley

Are we children??

I'm not, I don't need laws telling me what is good or not good for me.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Two big words that most people in hear seem never to have heard of.

themadchef

Poker, love it or hate it, it is a form of gambling. You can't compare it to drinking or smoking IMO as there are only so many cigarettes/drinks you can consume in a day. There is no end to the amount you can gamble.

It boils down to self control. People who don't have it shouldnt gamble, but they do. It's not fair to say all forms of gambling are bad, but there are people out there losing not only the shirt on their back, but the food off the family table. I was very friendly with a man from England who lost around £100K , his wife, his house...everything, through on line poker. I played at the same tables as him when he'd drop down in stakes waiting for the next credit card to come through. Madness, he knew it, but couldn't stop it till the banks stopped giving him money.

Yes there are lots of losing players, but without them there would be no winners. Obviously the sites are the real winners here, but you simply cannot just ban it without banning all other gambling in all other forms.

For me poker is fun, Ive been playing it a long time, the day it stops being fun i will stop playing. I am not a winning player, it's a skill and my skills are weak , but i really enjoy it, who's going to take that away from me?

Is it possible not to just say, as a government, "host your poker here, but to have on line poker played in this country we demand % of profits?". Better than nothing, and maybe it would hurt the industry for a while, but in the long run, people want to play and it will come back IMO.

jank

Is this topic relevant to this forum?

trailerparkboy

trailerparkboy wrote: »

You never answered my question, can you win long term at poker? why wont you answer the question. The answer is simple no you cannot because poker is gambling and you will never win at gambling long term, if anyone thinks they can they are only deluding themselves.

OK, it's time to set this straight.

Let's use the old coin toss analogy.

If I toss a coin 1,000 times it will land on heads roughly 500 times and similarly tails 500 times. If I offer you €1 to your €1 (that is to say, evens) on the outcome of this event then neither of us will win.

Now; if I offer you €2 to your €1 (that is 2/1) on the same outcome (which is a 1/1 probability) and we toss the coin 1,000 times you will win money. That is not luck, that is the application of mathematical probability to a problem.

It is also important to note that the less times we toss the coin the more the result of tossing it will vary from its true statistical probability of 50/50. This is called variance and we all understand it. If we toss a coin twice we cannot be sure that the 2nd time we toss it it will have the opposite outcome to the first time. This is because each time we toss it we have a 50/50 chance rather than each event affecting the subsequent ones.

However, the higher the number of times we toss it the more we will approach the statistical norm. That is why online cash players play at multiple tables at once; seeing tens of thousands of hands, in order to reduce their variance.

The skill of a poker player comes from comparing the conceivable range of hands his opponent can have in a given situation to his own and working out the chances of winning -v- the pot odds (amount of money you must put in to call/ amount of money you will win if you call) and making the correct decisions in the long term.

In this way; even if I am a 52% favourite, as long as I make that call consistently I will win in the long term. The greater the degree of skill the more consistently a player will make the tougher decisions and thusly the more he will win.

So yes, there is a mathematical formula which guarantees poker is a game of skill. However; given the modern proliferation of the knowledge of poker up to a fairly high intermediate level and even up to a quite high theoretical level it means that the skill level required to out-think your opponents and make the better decisions is at its highest ever.

For those people with a mere cursory understanding of the game who jump in at too high a level there awaits nothing but misery and loss as you are totally incapable of understanding what is going on.

gimme5minutes

themadchef wrote: »

Poker, love it or hate it, it is a form of gambling. You can't compare it to drinking or smoking IMO as there are only so many cigarettes/drinks you can consume in a day. There is no end to the amount you can gamble.

You're right in one sense that you can't compare it to cigarettes/alcohol as these are things that are actually killing a huge amount of people. And financially an alcohol problem can cost you just as much as an online poker problem, ask any of the hundreds of men down the years who have lost the wife, kids, house and job due to alcohol addiction.

It boils down to self control. People who don't have it shouldnt gamble, but they do. It's not fair to say all forms of gambling are bad, but there are people out there losing not only the shirt on their back, but the food off the family table. I was very friendly with a man from England who lost around £100K , his wife, his house...everything, through on line poker. I played at the same tables as him when he'd drop down in stakes waiting for the next credit card to come through. Madness, he knew it, but couldn't stop it till the banks stopped giving him money.

There is far more money being lost betting on sports than in online poker. If you think people only lose big sums playing online poker you must have no idea how much some people are betting on sports. At least you have a chance of winning at poker. 99% of the population have absolutely 0 chance of winning long term against the bookies.

Do you know that even if you are actually a winning sports bettor bookmakers can and will reduce the amount they will let you bet to a minuscule amount or even refuse to take your bets altogether. Conversely if you are a huge loser they make you as a 'VIP' customer and will increase the amount you can bet and go out of their way to accommodate any requests you may have in the knowledge that you will blow even more of your money in future with them. There is nothing noble about traditional bookmakers. Imo they are all way shadier than (the big established) online poker sites.

The amounts of money being blown by society with traditional bookmakers is way more than whats being blown on online poker. But at the end of the day, it's people choice to engage in these activities of their own free will. There will always be a small minority who get addicted and take it too far. But the rest of society shouldn't have the choice to enjoy these activities (alcohol, cigarettes, bookmakers, online poker) of their own free will taken away from them because a small minority of people can't control themselves. Most people don't want to live in a nanny state.

jhegarty

trailerparkboy wrote: »

you never answered my question, can you win long term at poker? why wont you answer the question. The answer is simple no you cannot because poker is gambling and you will never win at gambling long term, if anyone thinks they can they are only deluding themselves.

For the tenth time. How does everyone loose ?

Where dose the money disappear to ?

Do you acknowledge any level of skill in the game , do you have a 50/50 chance when playing Joe Hachem ?

nitrogen

The support for the OP is a window into the minds of how conservative right-wing ideas start to develop: something negative has happened to that individual or someone close to them, the selfish individual then wants that negative cause to be banished from society without understanding the repercussions for everyone else. The craziest ones also seem to 'find' Jesus along their journey to new enlightenment.

Blisterman

People who call out for gambling to be banned, don't understand that, at the end of the day, everything in life is a gamble. You take a gamble driving to work in the morning. You take a gamble buying a meal in a restaurant. You take a gamble approaching a girl in a nightclub.

Life would be boring without taking a chance on things.

patmac

nitrogen wrote: »

The support for the OP is a window into the minds of how conservative right-wing ideas start to develop: something negative has happened to that individual or someone close to them, the selfish individual then wants that negative cause to be banished from society without understanding the repercussions for everyone else. The craziest ones also seem to 'find' Jesus along their journey to new enlightenment.

George Bush Jnr used to be an alcholic , drug taker and he turned out all right.

OP reminds me of a programme I was watching the other night about Lenny Bruce and his legal troubles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Bruce

hobochris

The government will not ban something that generates huge revenue for them, they get a cut in tax after all and banning online gambling cant be done without banning all gambling. Good luck on that one, especially with the fact it will cause more job losses in a recession, even this government is smart enough to know that's a bad thing to do.

More so Good look trying to ban online gambling as its clear you have not thought the near impossible logistics of it, Same way that as much as they try they cannot stop internet piracy. as no one state governs the internet.

Op you clearly took a narrow minded view on this without putting much thought in.

IF online gambling is banned-->you must ban all gambling to be fair--> this includes investment as it is a gamble no matter what way you spin it--> the economy as we know it will collapse as we depend heavily on investment.

Credit/loans/mortgages are also gambling as the bank don't know 100% if they will be paid back meaning a risk is taken by the bank.

So in essence your talking about banning all gambling,investment and loans? which in turn would collapse the economy and the country would revert back to the dark ages?

:rolleyes:

Slash/ED

Pal wrote: »

You know nothing about me.
How can you say that ?

Fact is that it is very nearly impossible to conclusively show or prove that skill wins out in poker over luck because the latter is arbitrary and random.

To state otherwise is 'questionable' as I said.
Perhaps 'debatable' might have been a better word.

Yes there are good players and bad players but to ridicule someone with an ignorance tag because you don't agree with their point of view is clearly unacceptable.

As to your contention that I 'clearly dont' know anything about poker, you are very wrong.

If there are good players and bad players by your own admission then by your own admission it's a skill game where skill will win out in the end. If it wasn't, how could someone be good or bad?

Is there a such thing as someone who is good at flipping a perfectly fair and evenly balanced coin? You defeat your own stupid argument.

Also it's not nearly impossible to show skill wins out in the end. In fact it's very easy, and someone with a large databased of hands as many on here have could show it. But beyond that it was proven in a court of law in some country.

Anyone who genuinely doesn't believe poker is a game of skill is welcome to play me one on one if they want :pac:

destroyer

patmac wrote: »

George Bush Jnr used to be an alcholic , drug taker and he turned out all right.

:eek::eek::eek: I liked him better in his drink and drug days.

eagle eye

Hookey wrote: »

The reason the Americans come down so hard on it has absolutely nothing to do with morality and protecting consumers as it has to do with the lobbying powers of US casino owners. If the US casinos open up online gambling themselves they'd also have to open to offshore operators (under WTO agreements that the US is already in breach of), so they use the Wire Act and right-wing red-staters to keep it locked down.

There is a whole lot more to it over there than just what you claim.
Gambling or playing poker for cash is illegal in many states in the US. Online gambling crosses borders and allows people to gamble in these states. In other states where gambling is legal and regulated there is a tax on rake and winnings and again online gambling or poker bypasses all these laws.

Quint

Trailerparkboy, can you answer me just one question?
Why do you call just on the ban of poker and not all forms of gambling? There's plenty of gamblers that have lost all their money in bookies. Why not ban these?

happyoutscan

eagle eye wrote: »

There is a whole lot more to it over there than just what you claim.
Gambling or playing poker for cash is illegal in many states in the US. Online gambling crosses borders and allows people to gamble in these states. In other states where gambling is legal and regulated there is a tax on rake and winnings and again online gambling or poker bypasses all these laws.

I see from here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055585967&page=3
(#37) that you seem to know a bit about the game. So can I ask why you are suddenly calling for it to be banned? Is it because you are concerned about saving our souls from the 'evil of poker' or is it because you are like the OP, bitter about losing?

phantom_lord

jhegarty wrote: »

For the tenth time. How does everyone loose ?

Where dose the money disappear to ?

Do you acknowledge any level of skill in the game , do you have a 50/50 chance when playing Joe Hachem ?

i'd prob be an 70/30 fav over joe hachem.

phantom_lord

Pal wrote: »

Fact is that it is very nearly impossible to conclusively show or prove that skill wins out in poker over luck because the latter is arbitrary and random.

over large enough sample sizes the relevance of luck is quite insignificent.

eagle eye

phantom_lord wrote: »

i'd prob be an 70/30 fav over joe hachem.

I think this is the most straightforward and sincere post in this whole thread. You've convinced me that there is nothing wrong with online poker. Fair play.

And that for me is end of/

Ri_Nollaig

Im not a big poker player, only ever played a few free rolls and perhaps the odd 1/2 euro buy ins. But have played alot of games with mates and do enjoy it.

I really cant stand these groups/individuals who want to ban <X> wheather thats; online gambling, video games, smoking, drinking.
Its just builds a nanny state, as appartently we need to be told everything.

Yes poker is gambling by definition but that doesnt mean everyone who plays it loses!
This "all gamblers will lose in the long run" is a complete generalisation.
It is as much skill as luck, pretty much the same as any other sport/game. But even then that doesnt matter as gambling IS NOT ILLEGAL and should never be.
Im sure you can find examples of those who's lifes where destroyed by gambling but you could probably find the same for just about anything.

When ever I hear of stuff like this all i can ever think of, is the epiosde of south park where they changed the childrens play as some people found this and that offensive. By the time everyone was happy they where just standing there in grey suits.