Sinn Fein...the future?

itsallaboutheL · 10-06-2009 11:50am

José Alaninho wrote: »

You have not answered the question. You linked to some blatantly loyalist propaganda site to try and make it look like you did, but you haven't.

Show us a single source where Sinn Féin representatives have called for and / or justified the killing of Protestants solely on the basis of their religion.

because its perfectly acceptable to kill them for selling drugs on your turf once its not "directly" sectarian!?!:rolleyes:

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 11:51am

José Alaninho wrote: »

Show us a single source where Sinn Féin representatives have called for and / or justified the killing of Protestants solely on the basis of their religion.

http://www.allianceparty.org/news/001489/mcgarry__reaction_to_sinn_fein_comments_on_escape_of_liam_avril.html

1 minute to link Gerry Adams and Mitchell McLaughlin to a brutal sectarian murderer.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 11:52am

Perestroika wrote: »

Why would anyone target innocent Protestants?

Very good question. In fact, why would anyone target ANY innocent people ?

I don't think the IRA targetted innocent Protestants, BTW......they had no way of knowing what religion people out shopping were.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 11:52am

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

because its perfectly acceptable to kill them for selling drugs on your turf once its not "directly" sectarian!!

LOL turf.

Explain post?

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 11:53am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Very good question. If fact, why would anyone target ANY innocent people ?

I don't think the IRA targetted innocent Protestants, BTW......they had no way of knowing what religion people out shopping were.

Ok then. Why would anyone target innocent shoppers?

itsallaboutheL · 10-06-2009 11:53am

Perestroika wrote: »

LOL turf.

Explain post?

Sarcasm

Nodin · 10-06-2009 11:54am

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/shankill.htm

You stated "It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.". You haven't provided such a justification from SF. Why?

Happy Monday wrote: »

I have said that SF/IRA - your party and movement - has murdered many Protestants across the North just because of their religion.

No, you said

It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 11:58am

Perestroika wrote: »

Ok then. Why would anyone target innocent shoppers?

You'd have to ask them that, because it's beyond me.

And come back to me when [if] you get a straight answer.

I won't hold my breath, because I'd be long dead.

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 11:58am

Nodin wrote: »

You stated "It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.". You haven't provided such a justification from SF. Why?

Because they viewed Protestants to a man as their enemy.

Nodin · 10-06-2009 11:59am

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.allianceparty.org/news/001489/mcgarry__reaction_to_sinn_fein_comments_on_escape_of_liam_avril.html

1 minute to link Gerry Adams and Mitchell McLaughlin to a brutal sectarian murderer.

That doesnt relate to

SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant

either....

Nodin · 10-06-2009 12:00pm

Happy Monday wrote: »

Because they viewed Protestants to a man as their enemy.

Thats not the answer to the question I asked.

Neither is it true.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 12:01pm

Nodin wrote: »

You stated "It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.". You haven't provided such a justification from SF. Why?

The link to the Alliance Party website has Mitchell McLoughlin claiming that the guy who murdered the two was a "prisoner of war" - that's trying to justify it.

José Alaninho · 10-06-2009 12:01pm

Happy Monday wrote: »

Because they viewed Protestants to a man as their enemy.

Aren't you just hilarious?

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 12:05pm

Nodin wrote: »

Thats not the answer to the question I asked.

Neither is it true.

Are you people for real?
Northern Protestants were targetted for 30 years by SF/IRA in an attempt to drive them and the British Army into the sea and back to Great Britain.
Sectarian murders were commonplace in Border regions and in Belfast.
Protestants were also targetted in places like Dunmanway, South Armagh and Coolnacrease, Co. Offaly during the Tan War 1919-21.
SF stood over this slaughter during those times.

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 12:07pm

José Alaninho wrote: »

Aren't you just hilarious?

You didn't comment on that Alliance party link did you?

Nodin · 10-06-2009 12:09pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The link to the Alliance Party website has Mitchell McLoughlin claiming that the guy who murdered the two was a "prisoner of war" - that's trying to justify it.

No, it is not.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 12:11pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You'd have to ask them that, because it's beyond me.

And come back to me when [if] you get a straight answer.

I won't hold my breath, because I'd be long dead.

You're saying it, not SF or the IRA. Put up or shut up.

Happy Monday wrote: »

Because they viewed Protestants to a man as their enemy.

Why? That was a bad attempt at answering.

Happy Monday wrote: »

Are you people for real?
Northern Protestants were targetted for 30 years by SF/IRA in an attempt to drive them and the British Army into the sea and back to Great Britain.
Sectarian murders were commonplace in Border regions and in Belfast.
Protestants were also targetted in places like Dunmanway, South Armagh and Coolnacrease, Co. Offaly during the Tan War 1919-21.
SF stood over this slaughter during those times.

Why whats wrong with Protestants?
When did SF stand over what you mentioned?

NOGMaxpower · 10-06-2009 12:13pm

It amazes me how susceptible to propegha most of the SF haters out there are. For me there is a vast difference between obtaining a united Ireland through violence and politics. With the latter being proved to be a success.

You are ignoring the fact that the people and politicians up north have moved on from the troubles and are making real progress. Get over the past and look to the future. Spouting typical rhetoric about the troubles being a sectarian war is rubbish. There has been countless casualties on both sides and lets face it no one wants a return to the troubles. However there are some dissidants who are hell bent on returning to violence and again its SF and particularily Martin Maguinness who have been key in putting down this regiem.

Also food for thought is, if there was no SF there would be no peace in Ireland. Do you honestly think SDLP had enough strength to face all the Unionist parties and the UK government alone? Not a chance. Its easy to berrate SF due to the negitive publicity they received for decades up to the point where section 31 was lifted. Since it was lifted SF finally had a voice in the public domain (no more dodgy edits and actor voices on tv/radio). Was it any surprise that a few years later the 1st ceasefire was agreed? Which ultimately lead to the good Friday agreement (again without SF this would never have happend).

So back on track, what is the future of SF. Sure they're getting hit big time in the local elections and in the last general election but ask yourself why this is? Sure the ol stigma is attached to them as being the political wing of the IRA, who are now no longer operating and fully in compliance with decomissioning board (unlike many other Loyalist paramilitaries). Its all down to Irish economic policies. Very few people believe SF have the right policies to lead the Irish economy to success and you know what this is probably correct. But don't think for a second SF don't recognise this flaw and i know they are currently working on a real economic package for Ireland (including the north - only party to do so).

In short here's the future of the party IMO (I stress my opinion).

1 Create and rollout a real economic package that suits all the nations classes.

2 Change their internal ministers and counsellors. Moving away form the old faces of politics and replacing them with new ones. This will move the party away from looking at Gerry A, Martin and people remembering their ties to the troubles and the IRA. Thus opening up the party to people who are against any paramilitary ties. (They have already started to do this and have an extremely young party in their ranks).

3 Continue to be an all Ireland Party.

4 They are currently the 3/4th most popular party in the country. Inevitably this will lead them to a coalition governement with either Labour or FG. Both parties have already opened up previously locked doors to this idea.

5 Once we have a 32 county state just think of all the support they will gain from the former six counties = massive boost in local and general elections.

They are a real party who have been democratically elected to power. While they still have their support they like any other party in politics will continue to grow in popularity and ultimately cement their position in Ireland (they already have the foundations to do this).

At the next general election you will see SF gain seats by about 10% growth while FG and FF fight it out.

If I've caused any offense to anyone i apologise right now and again all of the above is just my opinion nothing less nothing more.

Can'tseeme · 10-06-2009 12:17pm

Let's get real here, Sinn Fein wouldn't be allowed to sit on the policing board of Northern Ireland if they were involved in some of the things being suggested on these boards. They certainly wouldn't be sharing power with the DUP or making trips to downing street.

I've lived in Belfast all my life, through the conflict and believe me, the north was not a normal society. We've thankfully moved away from it. Sinn Fein have played a major role in transforming the city. That has been recognised by even unionist politicians. West Belfast for example is a totally different place compared to what it was 15/20 years ago. The politicians of the south need to stop with their cheap points scoring and get on with sorting themselves out.

NOGMaxpower · 10-06-2009 12:21pm

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Let's get real here, Sinn Fein wouldn't be allowed to sit on the policing board of Northern Ireland if they were involved in some of the things being suggested on these boards. They certainly wouldn't be sharing power with the DUP or making trips to downing street.

I've lived in Belfast all my life, through the conflict and believe me, the north was not a normal society. We've thankfully moved away from it. Sinn Fein have played a major role in transforming the city. That has been recognised by even unionist politicians. West Belfast for example is a totally different place compared to what it was 15/20 years ago. The politicians of the south need to stop with their cheap points scoring and get on with sorting themselves out.

Couldn't agree more with you dude and I've seen the same thing myself since all of my immediate family are from Belfast and W Belfast. Its RTE's reporting and the political point scoring you pointed out that gives people on this thread ammunition.

Happy Monday is living on some strange planet i tell ya.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 12:25pm

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

Couldn't agree more with you dude and I've seen the same thing myself since all of my immediate family are from Belfast and W Belfast. Its RTE's reporting and the political point scoring you pointed out that gives people on this thread ammunition.

Happy Monday is living on some strange planet i tell ya.

100%

pug_ · 10-06-2009 12:27pm

José Alaninho wrote: »

In that case, let's expand it further: If the Brits had never occupied Ireland, there would have been no need for a movement for national independence. Best scenario all round imo...

That's not expanding on anything it's just responding to peoples opinions on fact with ifs and buts, in other words gibberish.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 12:31pm

Perestroika wrote: »

You're saying it, not SF or the IRA. Put up or shut up.

Excuse me ? "Put up or shut up" ? And I'm saying WHAT, exactly ? What is this "it" ? :rolleyes:

Apart from making absolutely no sense in the context of what I said, that's bloody rude.....especially considering that YOU'RE the one who asked about murdering innocent Protestants.

I just said that there was no reason to differentiate.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 12:33pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Excuse me ? "Put up or shut up" ? And I'm saying WHAT, exactly ? What is this "it" ? :rolleyes:

Apart from making absolutely no sense in the context of what I said, that's bloody rude.....especially considering that YOU'RE the one who asked about murdering innocent Protestants.

I just said that there was no reason to differentiate.

You implied that innocent shoppers were targeted, no one else did.

Give me a logical reason for the murder of innocent shoppers, or protestants, whichever. What would be the strategic benefit?

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 12:39pm

Perestroika wrote: »

You implied that innocent shoppers were targeted, no one else did.

So leaving a bomb in Omagh or Warrington didn't target shoppers, then ? That's definitely news to me!

Maybe the British Queen was visiting there that day ? Or the Minister for Defence ?

Hang on....they weren't.

Perestroika wrote: »

Give me a logical reason for the murder of innocent shoppers, or protestants, whichever. What would be the strategic benefit?

I have absolutely no idea. Then again, I don't know of any logical reason or "strategic benefit" for murdering a Garda in Adare and then leaving the money behind, either.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 12:45pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So leaving a bomb in Omagh or Warrington didn't target shoppers, then ? That's definitely news to me!

Maybe the British Queen was visiting there that day ? Or the Minister for Defence ?

Hang on....they weren't.

I have absolutely no idea. Then again, I don't know of any logical reason or "strategic benefit" for murdering a Garda in Adare and then leaving the money behind, either.

You're running away from the question. Unreal. Why would anyone target and murder innocent shoppers? You're making the claim, you can't substantiate it with even a reason as to why someone would do it. Sinn Fein have what to do with Omagh?

So you can't think of a reason? So should you put it down to murdering shoppers for the craic?

The fact that you tried to link Omagh to SF or the IRA is a joke and identifies you as someone who isn't up to date at all.

NOGMaxpower · 10-06-2009 12:47pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So leaving a bomb in Omagh or Warrington didn't target shoppers, then ? That's definitely news to me!

Maybe the British Queen was visiting there that day ? Or the Minister for Defence ?

Hang on....they weren't.

I have absolutely no idea. Then again, I don't know of any logical reason or "strategic benefit" for murdering a Garda in Adare and then leaving the money behind, either.

Ok lets be crystal clear on this Liam.... the people who carried out the Omagh bombing were dissident IRA member "McKevit to be exact" and they had no affiliation to the Provisional IRA (on ceasefire at the time) or SF.

Get your facts right before you berrate SF further. Again another example of how the media has shaped your opinion. You seem to forget too that SF publicly denounced this attack and were key in ensuring those who were responsible were brought to justice just last week.

Mad Finn · 10-06-2009 12:48pm

Can'tseeme wrote: »

they're a young party in the south, up against established parties. Patience and hard work is the key

Young party my arse. They are in fact the oldest of all the main parties operating in the south, founded in 1905 (I think) before the Labour Party and way before Fianna Fail (1920s) Fine Gael (1930s) and the Greens. (whenever).

Unless of course you want to concede that the true inheritors of those who led the struggle between 1916 and 1921 are the two major parties and that today's Sinn Fein is a more recently born animal with very different stripes.

But you'd be kicked out of the gang pretty quickly for saying that.

What's the future for Sinn Fein? They're simply Fianna Fail in waiting. We've seen the transformation before. From ardent socialist revolutionaries doing everything "for the people" to rapacious crony capitalists in Charvet shirts.

Whether they supplant Fianna Fail or just gradually blend into them is uncertain, but that's where they're headed.

Not with my vote, I hasten to add.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 12:54pm

Perestroika wrote: »

You're running away from the question. Unreal. Why would anyone target and murder innocent shoppers? You're making the claim, you can't substantiate it with even a reason as to why someone would do it. Sinn Fein have what to do with Omagh?

Sorry mate, it's you that's being "unreal".

The question was

Why would anyone target and murder innocent shoppers?

Did you see that word in bold ? anyone

Perestroika wrote: »

The fact that you tried to link Omagh to SF or the IRA is a joke and identifies you as someone who isn't up to date at all.

So I didn't "try to link Omagh with SF" at all. Let me try this again :

I do not understand how anyone could target and / or murder innocent people.

But your defensive and OTT response is EXACTLY the problem; leaving aside the fact that you ducked the mention of Warrington COMPLETELY, to the point of not even mentioning it in your post; you ASSUMED that I was linking Omagh with Sinn Fein, when in actual fact I was answering the precise question that you posed :rolleyes:

And you also ducked the reference to Adare - typical! :rolleyes: So don't accuse me of running away from the question, when you choose to pick one out of three to get on your high horse and misrepresent, while ignoring the other two.

Yes, the thread's about Sinn Fein, but I was answering your question and simultaneously proving that being anti-violence / murder isn't selective.

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 12:54pm

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

Ok lets be crystal clear on this Liam.... the people who carried out the Omagh bombing were dissident IRA member "McKevit to be exact" and they had no affiliation to the Provisional IRA (on ceasefire at the time) or SF.

Get your facts right before you berrate SF further. Again another example of how the media has shaped your opinion. You seem to forget too that SF publicly denounced this attack and were key in ensuring those who were responsible were brought to justice just last week.

But you can't deny Warrington, Harrods, La Mon or Enniskillen.

You can't deny the murder of Garda Jerry McCabe - or perhaps RTE blamed you in error for that as well.

I accept the conflict is over and it is time to move on - but a key feature of the IRA campaign was deliberate targetted attacks on innocents and the justification of same by SF.

Now how many words of pigeon Irish can you string together to defend yourselves?

Sinn Fein...the future?

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