Ableton / Cubase / Reason / Fruity Loops

acman

I understand that these are the main dance music production programs...but what are the main differences / pros and cons?

Keep it in laymans terms please :-)

Thanks in advance!
Acman

Four-Percent

Ableton is best for live performance - it's very easy to play different loops, trigger effects etc. It's probably the easiest DAW to get into, and quite intuitive to the startng user. However, it supposedly lacks the small details and minutae that make cubase and logic etc good. Many people criticize it because tracks made in ableton tend to be quite loopy (i.e the loops don't change very much).

I personally don't like reason apart from the synths that it comes with.Can't speak for the others although fruity loops is meant to be similar to ableton (i think) since tracks tend to be quite similar to those in ableton.

Not the most powerful or detailed program for making music, it is however a good starting point.Ableton is regarded as being like a musical sketchpad to scribble down ideas, whereas logic or cubase are more like a canvas to finely craft and tune your songs.


Also OP, i think Apple's Logic is up there with the best, if not the best.A lot of producers these days seem to use it, and there's a new one coming out soon.AFAIK it's only for mac though, unless you want to go back to version 4/5.

seannash

yeah logic is the most popular daw out there for dancemusic

gsparx

Unlike Four-Percent I found Live to have a steep learning curve. I love Reason and find it almost impossible not to come up with ideas. It's as easy or as complex as you want it to be.
Live is excellent the way it is set up (the way you can try out alternate arrangements in real time is amazing) but i found it took ages to get my head around and there are quite a few tricks that aren't very intuitive.
Logic is probably the best option all round though. You can't record audio into Reason but they do have a new "version" of Reason called "Record" that will take care of this.
It depends on what you're used to I suppose. If you've used none of them, Live might make total sense to you.
But with Logic you have synths, effects and a professional sounding recording platform.
Having said that I use Digital Performer which nobody in Ireland seems to use. I love it, probably because it's what I learned on.

seannash

i started on Ableton and honestly didnt find it that hard.
i do think coming from a djing background helped me when it comes to Ableton.
i did find Ableton easy to use and i was bashing away happily til i was convinced to switch and found myself having a better time using Logic.

Reason i liked but never really composed in it.im not too convinced with the "wiring" aspect of it.id prefer not to have to wire the synths together.
some people like this some dont.
no vst support would be a huge factor though and i still cant understand why they havent implemented it in reason.

i think most daws do a reasonable job these days.i think you can make god music with all them but as a complete package i think Logic is the winner.

ive watched people use Nuendo and Cubase and was really impressed with them also

seannash

does anyone use cakewalk anymore?

it looks decent and theyve been around a long time.im sure theyd have to have done something right

ICN

I've used everything.

I feel at home with Logic.. Its very intuitive. Anything that you want to do can be done easily. I've read v.little of the manual. Its as deep as you need it to be.

Could never get my head around Cubase. Dont know why..

Fruity Loops was my 1st bit of software. Learned so much about putting beats together from that. Havent used it in years.. but some of the synths are amazing sounding. Much better than V3 I had or whatever! But in general.. it just seemed a little too basic.

Got Reason.. Which was great.. but you are really limited in that you can see waveforms IMO. Its only got a 12/14 channel mixer - Cant remember. Its strongest point to some is the fact that you can route everything up yourself. But thats a pain. Give me channel inserts & sends any day of the week.

Got Ableton.. Initially thought it rocked. Then realised what it didnt have / couldnt do. No mixer was a huge probem for me. Good for Audio / Sketchpad / DJ'ing as someone already said.

Bought Logic. Took a bit of a risk as there is no Demo. Liked what I saw from Steve Angello & D.Ramriez in Future Music Mag.. and knew that Logic was exactly what I needed.

Just as well I had a Mac & the price of Logic had just gone down! Bought 8 and havent looked back.


But the point is this.. There's no point even talking about Logic if you dont have a Mac. Its great.. But what can you do if you dont have it?

Cubase / Ableton would be the 2 main DAW choices. I'd probably give Cubase another chance if I was still on PC.

Neurojazz

Reason is solid - but limited by what you get with it.

But, it's got a few things going for it that the others don't.

It's 'portable', lightweight. small saved files that mean you can work with others simply in it's raw form.

With the other apps you'll need to get extra VSTi and effects to really make the most of them - where in Reason you get watered down versions of the whole lot (it's great for schools) and i've found reason so stable it's unbelievable (one corrupt file in 6 years)

If you are a musician looking for a sketchpad that can be taken into larger apps, then Reason is fine - if your looking for full on producing then look at logic for MAC and Cubase for PC.

If you want to get more into live and DJing, then Ableton gets more votes in that area.

And to be frank, I've got a release going out on Armada shortly that was made in Reason (and it's been selling for years on beatport etc...) - all in Reason.

I use Cubase when I want to do 'more' with sounds and mess about without having to work hard in Reason to get what I want.

The crunch comes when you look at the price differences. My cubase setup is running into 5k+ and reason runs into like 350....

I'd say ask around and see who is using what for your musical needs and ask if you can view the running setup.

seannash

ICN wrote: »

I've used everything.

I feel at home with Logic.. Its very intuitive. Anything that you want to do can be done easily. I've read v.little of the manual. Its as deep as you need it to be.

Could never get my head around Cubase. Dont know why..

Fruity Loops was my 1st bit of software. Learned so much about putting beats together from that. Havent used it in years.. but some of the synths are amazing sounding. Much better than V3 I had or whatever! But in general.. it just seemed a little too basic.

Got Reason.. Which was great.. but you are really limited in that you can see waveforms IMO. Its only got a 12/14 channel mixer - Cant remember. Its strongest point to some is the fact that you can route everything up yourself. But thats a pain. Give me channel inserts & sends any day of the week.

Got Ableton.. Initially thought it rocked. Then realised what it didnt have / couldnt do. No mixer was a huge probem for me. Good for Audio / Sketchpad / DJ'ing as someone already said.

Bought Logic. Took a bit of a risk as there is no Demo. Liked what I saw from Steve Angello & D.Ramriez in Future Music Mag.. and knew that Logic was exactly what I needed.

Just as well I had a Mac & the price of Logic had just gone down! Bought 8 and havent looked back.


But the point is this.. There's no point even talking about Logic if you dont have a Mac. Its great.. But what can you do if you dont have it?

Cubase / Ableton would be the 2 main DAW choices. I'd probably give Cubase another chance if I was still on PC.

not to go off topic but you can run OSX on a pc.
whenever im going to buy a desktop for my homestudio ill be buiding it myself and running OSX on it.
works out alot cheaper and so far with the current efix chip there has been no problems with updates(two friends have done this)

Neurojazz

seannash wrote: »

does anyone use cakewalk anymore?

it looks decent and theyve been around a long time.im sure theyd have to have done something right

It's called Sonar now - a lot of Americans use it compared to Cubase for Europeans - it moved from Cakewalk into Sonar and touted itself as a way for guitarists to get into the whole DAW thing.

I had to pin down a cakewalk rep in Bristol, UK about problems they had with CW9, and they confessed to shoddy coding - the DAW had a major flaw where your graphics card interfered with the CPU usage bar causing constant drop outs.

I always look at the Atari ST running cubase 3.1 solid as a rock when comparing DAWs - and i can't believe that cakewalk fluffed everything up so royally at that point in the game.

hans gruber

ICN wrote: »

Got Reason.. Which was great.. but you are really limited in that you can see waveforms IMO. Its only got a 12/14 channel mixer - Cant remember. Its strongest point to some is the fact that you can route everything up yourself. But thats a pain. Give me channel inserts & sends any day of the week.

Reason...

Just create another mixer
so you have 24 channels
then create another
and you have 36 channels, etc

Being able to wire things up IS the beauty of reason. You can make a whole track just by filtering and chopping up one sound, and keep routing it different places.
Being able to wire it up is an entirely different thing to inserts&sends. It still has inserts and sends.


Ableton's an entirely different beast, and is waaaay more suited than anything else I have seen to "jamming" and "playing out live"

Fruity was the first i've used, and i never took it seriously, cos it looked like a kid's toy. I've heard professional results from it though, so it's obviously anything but...


Cubase is a real beast of a program. I can use it, and it's very professional, but for some reason I find its too slow to get my ideas "down", before I lose momentum.

Logic, I'd love to try, as I've only heard good things.

Helix

ICN wrote: »

Got Reason.. Which was great.. but you are really limited in that you can see waveforms IMO. Its only got a 12/14 channel mixer

right click > create new mixer

you can have as many channels going through as many mixers as your computer can handle

acman

Thanks for all the answers guys!

So to summarise, and correct me if I have misunderstood something:

Logic (Mac) = Top End Music Production with all the bells and whistles for Apple Mac Users only.

Cubase (Windows) = Top End Music Production with all the bells and whistles for Windows PC Users only.

Reason (Windows & Mac) = Lightweight, affordable, all round mid range music production, sort of like an advanced sketch pad for MP.

Ableton (Windows & Mac) = Good music production but missing some of the pro features Logic and Cubase has...good live show features for DJing.

Fruity Loops = ?

Any others us noobs should worth considering?

Thanks again guys!

Neurojazz

acman wrote: »

Thanks for all the answers guys!

So to summarise, and correct me if I have misunderstood something:

Logic (Mac) = Top End Music Production with all the bells and whistles for Apple Mac Users only.

Cubase (Windows) = Top End Music Production with all the bells and whistles for Windows PC Users only.

Reason (Windows & Mac) = Lightweight, affordable, all round mid range music production, sort of like an advanced sketch pad for MP.

Ableton (Windows & Mac) = Good music production but missing some of the pro features Logic and Cubase has...good live show features for DJing.

Fruity Loops = ?

Any others us noobs should worth considering?

Thanks again guys!

Cubase/Logic = You have to pay for the bells and whistles

hans gruber

Neurojazz wrote: »

Reason is solid - but limited by what you get with it.

But, it's got a few things going for it that the others don't.

It's 'portable', lightweight. small saved files that mean you can work with others simply in it's raw form.

With the other apps you'll need to get extra VSTi and effects to really make the most of them - where in Reason you get watered down versions of the whole lot (it's great for schools) and i've found reason so stable it's unbelievable (one corrupt file in 6 years)

If you are a musician looking for a sketchpad that can be taken into larger apps, then Reason is fine - if your looking for full on producing then look at logic for MAC and Cubase for PC.

If you want to get more into live and DJing, then Ableton gets more votes in that area.

And to be frank, I've got a release going out on Armada shortly that was made in Reason (and it's been selling for years on beatport etc...) - all in Reason.

I use Cubase when I want to do 'more' with sounds and mess about without having to work hard in Reason to get what I want.

The crunch comes when you look at the price differences. My cubase setup is running into 5k+ and reason runs into like 350....

I'd say ask around and see who is using what for your musical needs and ask if you can view the running setup.

I've always found reason very versatile too. Its only limitation for me was my lack of drum sounds, so i expanded out in that regard, through buying an MPC. But then i discovered ableton, which suits my workflow in a totally different way.

hans gruber

acman wrote: »

Thanks for all the answers guys!

So to summarise, and correct me if I have misunderstood something:

Logic (Mac) = Top End Music Production with all the bells and whistles for Apple Mac Users only.

Cubase (Windows) = Top End Music Production with all the bells and whistles for Windows PC Users only.

Reason (Windows & Mac) = Lightweight, affordable, all round mid range music production, sort of like an advanced sketch pad for MP.

Ableton (Windows & Mac) = Good music production but missing some of the pro features Logic and Cubase has...good live show features for DJing.

Fruity Loops = ?

Any others us noobs should worth considering?

Thanks again guys!

Fruity loops can do VST's, reason can't
Reason can be re-wired to be more creative with your sound. Its more like hardware. Fruity looks like dance ejay.

Ableton is great for comparing different things you do, as its really easy to swop between phrases and patterns. You can change how the song arrangement goes, at a whim, whilst keeping the original phrases intact.
You can also alter the phrases on-the-fly.
As its name suggests, it's a great "live" manipulation tool.

Anima

Well I'm a big advocate of FLStudio, its really a massive program these days. You can use the old way of making loops and patterns or you can work with audio files directly / recording if you want.

You can connect any parameter in the program to any parameter elsewhere, which means you can have an infinite number of modulations and controls to connect to.

Supports all the major plugin formats. Has a large collection of its own plugins. This is probably where it falls down a little bit I think. The quality isn't fantastic for some of them but I tend to use 3rd party plugins anyways.

FLStudio Sceenshot That screenshot shows the basic stuff but there is a lot more under the hood.

ICN

Helix wrote: »

right click > create new mixer

you can have as many channels going through as many mixers as your computer can handle

Absolutely..

But its a chore. I need to work faster than that.. It can get confusing remembering where everything is when you Tab it back to the cables. Especially if you are going back to a project that you havent touched in a while.

I realised that Life is too short.. or that mine probably wouldnt be long enough!

Still uses it occasionally. It just wasnt for me thats all.. along with several other factors.

seannash

Neurojazz wrote: »

Cubase/Logic = You have to pay for the bells and whistles

hmm just to put this in perspective

right now Logic studio 8 the full package including 40 gigs of samples is selling for 369euros on thomann.thats the highest version(meaning you get everything with it)

http://www.thomann.de/gb/apple_logic_studio_8.htm

Reason premium edition is selling for 399 euros on thoman with the basic reason package selling for 349 euros

http://www.thomann.de/gb/propellerhead_reason_premium_edition_engl.htm



So with logic its not a case of paying extra for the bells and whistles.;)

hans gruber

seannash wrote: »

hmm just to put this in perspective

right now Logic studio 8 the full package including 40 gigs of samples is selling for 369euros on thomann.thats the highest version(meaning you get everything with it)

http://www.thomann.de/gb/apple_logic_studio_8.htm

Reason premium edition is selling for 399 euros on thoman with the basic reason package selling for 349 euros

http://www.thomann.de/gb/propellerhead_reason_premium_edition_engl.htm



So with logic its not a case of paying extra for the bells and whistles.;)

Reason comes fully loaded with all the synths and drums and sound modules you're going to use, though, whereas Logic comes with nothing, right?

As in Logic and Cubase are sequencers for VST's, Reason's a sequencer with synths and drums all inside.

Neurojazz

seannash wrote: »

hmm just to put this in perspective

right now Logic studio 8 the full package including 40 gigs of samples is selling for 369euros on thomann.thats the highest version(meaning you get everything with it)

http://www.thomann.de/gb/apple_logic_studio_8.htm

Reason premium edition is selling for 399 euros on thoman with the basic reason package selling for 349 euros

http://www.thomann.de/gb/propellerhead_reason_premium_edition_engl.htm



So with logic its not a case of paying extra for the bells and whistles.;)

Decent synths?, post mastering? - does it come with all that malarkay so you can make dance music right away?

hans gruber

ICN wrote: »

It just wasnt for me thats all.. along with several other factors.

Thats the key really.

Something will work best for you, depending on what you like most.

seannash

Neurojazz wrote: »

Decent synths?, post mastering? - does it come with all that malarkay so you can make dance music right away?

yep it does.
synths are fantastic and its got the mastering tools in there too.
there are better mastering plugins out there but thats true for all inbuilt effects i think
the synths though are really quality though

Neurojazz

I don't know who uses Reason here but here's a nice thing about it.

I've got a 1.2ghtz centrino IBM r50e laptop.

I can run Reason and in one file i can have a 60 min set - 10 or so tracks with all unique instances of synths/drums machines (probably about 300 instruments in total easily) - and even open other instances of reason to copy whole songs in and out of it while it's playing with no glitches.

It's unbreakable, reliable.

It does however take an awful lot of time to learn how to get it sounding a lot larger than it really is.

seannash

hans gruber wrote: »

Reason comes fully loaded with all the synths and drums and sound modules you're going to use, though, whereas Logic comes with nothing, right?

As in Logic and Cubase are sequencers for VST's, Reason's a sequencer with synths and drums all inside.

Logic comes with synths, drum machine,sampler etc
40 gigs of samples and loops.
it comes with everything.
as ive said the synths are fantastic and the effects are great.
Space designer is a fantastic reverb for example and the inbuilt logic compressor is unreal

im not knocking Reason im just saying its not so keenly priced anymore.

hans gruber

seannash wrote: »

Logic comes with synths, drum machine,sampler etc
40 gigs of samples and loops.
it comes with everything.
as ive said the synths are fantastic and the effects are great.
Space designer is a fantastic reverb for example and the inbuilt logic compressor is unreal

im not knocking Reason im just saying its not so keenly priced anymore.

Yep I read that afterwards sean, I'm surprised. I havn't used Logic.

I've Cubase SX, which came with practically nothing at all.

Helix

ICN wrote: »

It can get confusing remembering where everything is when you Tab it back to the cables. Especially if you are going back to a project that you havent touched in a while.

sounds like someones a neddy no-namer

seannash

hans gruber wrote: »

Yep I read that afterwards sean, I'm surprised. I havn't used Logic.

I've Cubase SX, which came with practically nothing at all.

yeah i think Logic(or apple really)threw down the gauntlet with Logic 8

as its been said before it was a clever marketing move to reduce the price of logic so that they would make more money from people using there macs solely to run Logic


i must admit though i tried Logic 7 and it confused the crap out of me,they made it so much easier with 8:D

seannash

acman wrote: »

Thanks for all the answers guys!

So to summarise, and correct me if I have misunderstood something:

Logic (Mac) = Top End Music Production with all the bells and whistles for Apple Mac Users only.

Cubase (Windows) = Top End Music Production with all the bells and whistles for Windows PC Users only.

Reason (Windows & Mac) = Lightweight, affordable, all round mid range music production, sort of like an advanced sketch pad for MP.

Ableton (Windows & Mac) = Good music production but missing some of the pro features Logic and Cubase has...good live show features for DJing.

Fruity Loops = ?

Any others us noobs should worth considering?

Thanks again guys!

i think youve got it nailed really.
there is Neuendo to consider but i dont think many people are using it now.
another good feature of a daw is how it looks.
i got really sick at looking at ableton after a while to be honest,so bland.i understand the minimalist look is cool but i didnt like staring at it,plus it doesnt look good for there effects and plug ins in my opinion.

reason looks fun,exciting colours etc,definitely not boring to look at.

Logic a bit more drab but colourful none the less.
Fruity loops os a bit dull too,needs brightening up in my opinion

just nice to have a nice looking interface when your going to be glued to the screen for a few hours

ICN

Helix wrote: »

sounds like someones a neddy no-namer

Haha!

No.. I do. Very particular about that I am.

It just naming the project something that I can remember is the problem.


I've got several "XJCHS" & "GHHGHGH" on my HD.


I've stopped that now with Logic. Have a proper name for each project.

Some are really stupid - but its all I could think up at the time.


Need to start a notebook with song titles in it & leave it beside the Kboard :cool:

Neurojazz

Nuendo is same as cubase but with surround sound mixing built in.

gsparx

seannash wrote: »

i think youve got it nailed really.
there is Neuendo to consider but i dont think many people are using it now.
another good feature of a daw is how it looks.
i got really sick at looking at ableton after a while to be honest,so bland.i understand the minimalist look is cool but i didnt like staring at it,plus it doesnt look good for there effects and plug ins in my opinion.

reason looks fun,exciting colours etc,definitely not boring to look at.

Logic a bit more drab but colourful none the less.
Fruity loops os a bit dull too,needs brightening up in my opinion

just nice to have a nice looking interface when your going to be glued to the screen for a few hours

very good point. ableton is not nice to look at. i'm still on 5 and i'm sure things have improved but the "skin" options they give are ridiculous.
some of them would burn your eyes!
i also don't like the fact that (in 5 at least) you can only have one screen/ page at a time. it's simply not enough.
€369 for logic 8 is a phenomenal deal. if i was starting again that's where i'd go.

ICN

seannash wrote: »

yeah i think Logic(or apple really)threw down the gauntlet with Logic 8

as its been said before it was a clever marketing move to reduce the price of logic so that they would make more money from people using there macs solely to run Logic..

Its also been said that the removal of the Dongle was to encourage Logic to be shared / distributed on the net so that people would buy more Mac's.

Genius!

I dont think Logic has been "cracked" - Its probably some idiots SN.

ICN

seannash wrote: »

hmm just to put this in perspective

right now Logic studio 8 the full package including 40 gigs of samples is selling for 369euros on thomann.thats the highest version(meaning you get everything with it)

http://www.thomann.de/gb/apple_logic_studio_8.htm

Reason premium edition is selling for 399 euros on thoman with the basic reason package selling for 349 euros

http://www.thomann.de/gb/propellerhead_reason_premium_edition_engl.htm



So with logic its not a case of paying extra for the bells and whistles.;)

But you do need a Mac Mate!

seannash

ICN wrote: »

Its also been said that the removal of the Dongle was to encourage Logic to be shared / distributed on the net so that people would buy more Mac's.

Genius!

I dont think Logic has been "cracked" - Its probably some idiots SN.

no you can get cracked copies of logic.its pretty easy to find actually.i know alot of people using a cracked copy.

think its just done by generating new serial numbers,but im certainly not an expert

Helix

ICN wrote: »

I
I dont think Logic has been "cracked"

it has, long ago

ICN wrote: »

But you do need a Mac Mate!

a pc thatll run osx would do it too :pac:

ICN

seannash wrote: »

no you can get cracked copies of logic.its pretty easy to find actually.i know alot of people using a cracked copy.

think its just done by generating new serial numbers,but im certainly not an expert

Yup - Sounds like a KeyGen so.

Dont know if they do something with the code of the software, or if its just mimics the SN's.

seannash

ICN wrote: »

But you do need a Mac Mate!

nah theres been a few threads on it now in MP if you look up efix chips youll see videos of people running OSX on custom built pcs.

the efix chip lets you install a legit copy of osx and itll behave exactly like a mac

ICN

Helix wrote: »

it has, long ago -

The Brats!!

Helix wrote: »

a pc thatll run osx would do it too :pac:

I dont think the majority of people will do that though. Most will buy a MacBook or iMac.

seannash

ICN wrote: »

I dont think the majority of people will do that though. Most will buy a MacBook or iMac.

yeah true but the option is there.
people are building the equivalent of mac pros for 1000 us dollars.
if for some reason i cant afford a mac outright next time i go to upgrade ill be doing that as i really like osx

ICN

seannash wrote: »

nah theres been a few threads on it now in MP if you look up efix chips youll see videos of people running OSX on custom built pcs.

the efix chip lets you install a legit copy of osx and itll behave exactly like a mac

I know - Yeah, of course.. Didnt see your post earlier.

But I do think that you have to be a particular type of individual to get under the hood. Most new people just want to plug & play.

I'd say it'll really take off after Snow Leopard comes in.

It seems to be Intel only.. so basically - All Non-Intel owners will have to upgrade their Mac at some point sooner rather than later.

That'll be the main sort of person to "Build a Mac".

It'll probably be quite a few!!

acman

Mods:

Can we make this thread a Poll on which software we use primarily? Would be interesting to see...

- Logic, Cubase, Reason, Ableton, Fruity Loops, Other or something like that?

Anima

You can make a "hackintosh" machine with an AMD processor as well, theres a special patched kernel for it.


Sean, just so you know, you don't have to get the E-Fix chip to get OSX on a PC. It does make it a lot easier though... Maybe it is worth the money

derra

Installed Fruity Loops 8 today and with the help of these videos and the Seannash tutorial i have started to try and accomplish something
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055583757

This video is very helpful for starting off with Fruity Loops...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqZgBVx2w_Y

This one is useful too..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FytnRhAlZaU

Got going on a few beats,snares ,hi-hats and made a bassline in the program etc and generally playing around with the endless possibilities that is available !
And that is headwrecking too because i get a few sounds together and love the result but then started tweaking them and come up with better results and don't know where to stop
And with limited knowledge and alot to read up on it's gonna be a real challenge to finish something but hopefully will do

ED E

Neurojazz wrote: »

I don't know who uses Reason here but here's a nice thing about it.

I've got a 1.2ghtz centrino IBM r50e laptop.

I can run Reason and in one file i can have a 60 min set - 10 or so tracks with all unique instances of synths/drums machines (probably about 300 instruments in total easily) - and even open other instances of reason to copy whole songs in and out of it while it's playing with no glitches.

It's unbreakable, reliable.

It does however take an awful lot of time to learn how to get it sounding a lot larger than it really is.

You've got my attention with that post. Must have a look at reason. Thanks Neuro