''Dublin must reform or decline' says study

markopantelic

DUBLIN MUST reform its transport, local government and enterprise agencies if it is to avoid stagnation, urban sprawl and a decade of under-achievement, according to influential Futures Academy.
A new report by the academy, which is based in the faculty of Built Environment at Dublin City University, predicts city regions will become the dominant economic and political forces, competing with each other globally.
Its report, Dublin at a Crossroads – Exploring the future of the Dublin City Region, presents three scenarios for Dublin and its east coast hinterland in the year 2030.
The first scenario envisages a city region of 2.5 million – part of a multi-city “conurbation” of 5.2 million people, stretching from Belfast to Waterford.
The Dublin region would feature a thriving economy, an elected mayor, modern efficient public transport and high technology parks with “cloud centres” – a new form of computing in which the hardware is not contained in the computer, but in a hub accessed via broadband.
The scenario encompasses the reorganisation of local government in 2014; the relocation of Dublin airport to the west of the greater Dublin area in 2017 and a start on building a land link to Britain with a fast rail link to London in 2027. However, the scenario also envisages mounting environmental pressures, social division typified by gated communities, unemployment black spots, frequent riots and social unrest.
The second scenario envisages 2.5 million people living in a cleaner, greener, safer Dublin region – one of two city regions in the east – the other being Belfast.
It has good public transport and quality of life, even though the citizens are less well off than in the early 2000s. Electrified public transport developed between 2010 and 2030 enhances people’s lives. But by 2028 Dublin is in decline as good quality of life is attracting young people to the west.
The third scenario envisages Dublin as a region that has lost its international competitiveness but is still the State’s economic engine. The prolonged recession of the early 2010s has had a damaging effect and the region struggles with unabated urban sprawl, poor public transport, crime, racism and social exclusion.
Taking the best from each scenario, the report makes a number of recommendations to deliver the best Dublin region for 2030.
But it warns that “key uncertainties remain” and must be tackled. These include the lack of recognition of Dublin “as the main engine of growth for the Irish economy”. There is also criticism of Government’s “lack of strategic vision for the city region”. The report argued that uncertainty also arose because of “the inability to tackle crucial decisions” and “prolonged delays in implementation [which] can significantly impede Dublin’s ability to compete on the international scene”.

Some big years ahead and I don't predict the right steps will be taken:mad:

projectmayhem

Dublin is a squandered opportunity IMO. In economic boom times we didn't go high-rise, didn't build underground effective rail systems (for everyone, not just southsiders - how the hell south Dublin's network was added to, ignoring the northside's lack of anything is an amazing feat of political BS).

A few weeks ago I was in Amsterdam, who's tram system is amazing. They also have pretty good bus networks, and inter-city rail networks that simply just work... and work really well. Right now I'm in Boston where I can go from the city center to Fenway park (outskirts) in 20mins without a car. In Dublin, I can't get from the city center to any suburb in 20 minutes without a car. Hell, even with a car.......

My point is that Dublin can be great. But it won't be. Ever. Irish politics will get in the way. It's a disastrous example of squandered opportunity and bad planning. As soon as I can, I'm out. Sorry Dublin, but you stink.

markopantelic

Yeah I agree with you, a real opportunity wasted. What is the legacy of the Celtic Tiger? Nothing as far as I can see.

I haven't been to Amsterdam but don't know how good its like but surely the goverment seen these places and thought hey it be a good idea to replicate/improve on these cities in ireland but instead we got charachtereless apartments in the middle of nowhere.

A positive for me is even by 2030 I won't be that old(late 30's) so I remain optimistic. I like it, its home afterall.

gurramok

markopantelic wrote: »

A positive for me is even by 2030 I won't be that old(late 30's) so I remain optimistic. I like it, its home afterall.

How old are you, 12? :D

But, we have the empty Port Tunnel and Luas'es that don't join up!!

holidayhere

markopantelic wrote: »

Yeah I agree with you, a real opportunity wasted. What is the legacy of the Celtic Tiger? Nothing as far as I can see.

I haven't been to Amsterdam but don't know how good its like but surely the goverment seen these places and thought hey it be a good idea to replicate/improve on these cities in ireland but instead we got charachtereless apartments in the middle of nowhere.

A positive for me is even by 2030 I won't be that old(late 30's) so I remain optimistic. I like it, its home after all.

IMO Dublin does not have a true city centre.
O'Connell St is the recognised centre, but it is too big and sprawling.
The Grafton Street coupled with Temple would make for a better city centre.

greyed

Shame on you all :pac:

Yes, squandered opportunities, loads of em. Celtic tiger is poached, but so what? Its not like jesus gave us one chance and we blew it. Anyone who understands the economic cycle understands that booms and busts come and go with varying degree. Those who dont cower and rant about how its all over and how "its so irish". We, Irish people created the boom, and can do it again. Next time, hopefully there will be more competent politicians in office to fully take advantage of it, but anyone who says this country and city is not immensely better off now are simply out to bitch. That deadly 2030 future could be ours no problem. Steps are already being taken towards that end, we will be voting for a mayor, moaning about metro construction works and flying in a shiny new airport in no time.

Yes, there is a lot to do, but one way to ensure that Dublin does actually "stink" is to say just that and wallow in self defeat. Amsterdam wasnt always that shiny you know.

who_ru

greyed wrote: »

Shame on you all :pac:

We, Irish people created the boom, and can do it again.

sorry but that's a popular misconception. It was never a boom in the true sense of the word.

all and i mean all of it was borrowed from others who worked hard at builing up the eoconomies, germany & china, and other countries that had massive cash reserves derived from oil, namely the arab states. The irish banks borrowed credit from the markets flooded by cash from these countries, who in turn loaned it to irish consumers. as we know neither the banks or most consumers are in a position to pay it back, that's why we are all paying more tax to prop up ailing banks.

had to argue that point, we did not create any boom, it was created for us by others, we just borrowed their money. not hard to do.

Cool Mo D

holidayhere wrote: »

IMO Dublin does not have a true city centre.
O'Connell St is the recognised centre, but it is too big and sprawling.
The Grafton Street coupled with Temple would make for a better city centre.

What are you talking about? Dublin does have a proper and busy city centre - and it includes both Grafton Street and O'Connell street.

I think you might be mixing up the concepts of city centre and main street. Most larger cities do not have one defined main street anyway, but for Dublin, it's probably O'Connell street - Westmoreland street - Dame street, which are basically the same street.

markopantelic

o'connell st. has so much potential!!!!!!!!!

Acacia

The fact that there's no Nightlink bus service on week nights says it all really. You would think the capital city of a developed Western country would have night-time public transport...but, nah, not good auld Dublin.

It won't suprise me if it goes to crap over the next few decades tbh.

Refresh

every city has its problems

greyed

who_ru wrote: »

sorry but that's a popular misconception. It was never a boom in the true sense of the word.

had to argue that point, we did not create any boom, it was created for us by others, we just borrowed their money. not hard to do.

It was helped by the credit frenzy, no dispute there, but if this was the only factor in its inception then many other countries would have experienced the same phenomenon. To say there were no native effort beyond borrowing cash is unfair. Low tax and excellent industrial subsidisation and support policies, educated english-speaking workforce and EU membership all contributed to a large degree, even our geographic location helped.

You dont simply sit back and watch your country enjoy double digit growth for over a decade on the back of borrowed consumer confidence.

Our boom was partly artificial in terms of property speculation, but there was certainly substance in there too and was a certainly a "boom" by definition even if it was squandered somewhat, that is a point I would think it would be harder to argue.

@acacia

Obviously things are rough because of aforementioned bubble and retard politicians, we gets cuts, but why write off the entire city based on this? If every resident in every city around the world had your attitude then the world would be a shiithole. You think the worlds great cities never had problems??? Dublin has its problems alright but I dont get the Irish inferiority complex that some people have, its so indignant and pointless.

Umm, ill stop typing now :pac:

holidayhere

markopantelic wrote: »

o'connell st. has so much potential!!!!!!!!!

IMO it should be developed like Las Rambles in Barcelona.
Not many cities have a street with the potential of O'Connell St.
It would revolutionise the city of the city and all of the side streets off O'Connell st.

RandolphEsq

Dublin people have been obssessed with buying and owning houses. High rise apartments are what is needed but with the goofy Green bandwagon in full roll before the last election County Councils were quick to reject proposals for high rise buildings in the city. The most notable objection for me was the ''D4 Tower'' development in Ballsbridge. That would have been excellent for the area

IIMII

markopantelic wrote: »

What is the legacy of the Celtic Tiger? Nothing as far as I can see.

Croke Park

markopantelic

holidayhere wrote: »

IMO it should be developed like Las Rambles in Barcelona.
Not many cities have a street with the potential of O'Connell St.
It would revolutionise the city of the city and all of the side streets off O'Connell st.

What way would you change it any ideas?

projectmayhem

greyed wrote: »

Its not like jesus gave us one chance and we blew it. Anyone who understands the economic cycle understands that booms and busts come and go with varying degree. Those who dont cower and rant about how its all over and how "its so irish".

Well, no, this isn't the last time Ireland will be in boom. We had a great time in economic bliss, but as was explained already, our boom was sort of all on paper, rather then a real boom. If/when the economic cycle worldwide picks back up (and the pieces are being put together now it seems) no one will be quick to jump over to Ireland, either to lend us money or pump money in via business/job creation etc.

The other side of it is that Europe are going to have to evaluate what the hell we did with EU money. The NDP was an amazing idea, but there's huge holes in the plan it seems. For example, building an excellent LUAS system to service very limited area's, some already partly serviced by DART, when an Airport is crying out for transport.

I came home from the states yesterday and nearly blew a gasket when I got off my plane to walk out to a row of taxi's and 2 buses. Where's the rail link to the city? Where's the inter-city connections to Galway, Cork & Belfast? This is the airport of a major European city, or so we like to think. Every single dignitary, tourist, businessman and even Irish person travelling to/from this city have to pass through our Airport. The Airport itself is fine, and terminal 2 will be great. But it's far away from anything, and there's no real way to get anywhere without hiring a taxi/private driver (buses are too inefficient). Any other major (or even minor!) city in the world has some rail link from the airport to the city. It takes less then 20minutes to get from Schiphol to centraal station on a train that goes direct. It should be the exact same for Dublin. The distance is about the same!

greyed wrote: »

Next time, hopefully there will be more competent politicians in office to fully take advantage of it, but anyone who says this country and city is not immensely better off now are simply out to bitch. That deadly 2030 future could be ours no problem. Steps are already being taken towards that end, we will be voting for a mayor, moaning about metro construction works and flying in a shiny new airport in no time.

Hopefully there will be more competent politicians in office. But there probably won't be. We voted in a shower of eejits time & time again and let them get away with it. Irish people have set a precedent. Can you really see Fine Gael fixing things better?

What a political party needs to do is exactly what DeVore is doing here (strange analogy, I know). Hire the right people for the right jobs, then give them a list of what to fix and get them to do it ASAP, correctly.

While I think an elected mayor is a huge step, I also think that step will just be like the Irish president. A bit of a waste. Unless the mayor is someone willing to jump in and prove themselves (think Juliani or to a lesser extent Bloomberg in NY) by actually changing things, then it'll be a dignitary-greeters job. There's also the issue of having a mayor with no power over budget expenditure etc. Plus, once again, can you see any Irish politicians doing a good job in that post?

greyed wrote: »

Amsterdam wasnt always that shiny you know.

The fact that that's an argument is bizzare. You admit Amsterdam is fairly shiny now then, yes? So you also admit that they actively went out and changed what was wrong? Yes, there's still stuff to do in Amsterdam. Policing, IMO, is an issue in Amsterdam (and probably Holland generally) and there are parts of the city I wouldn't venture into at night... but if I wanted to there'd be a tram to take me there and back out again.

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Dublin people have been obssessed with buying and owning houses. High rise apartments are what is needed but with the goofy Green bandwagon in full roll before the last election County Councils were quick to reject proposals for high rise buildings in the city. The most notable objection for me was the ''D4 Tower'' development in Ballsbridge. That would have been excellent for the area

+1

High rise wins. It's more practical for a city that houses half the countries population. We have about 3 times more people then Boston, but even Boston is high rise.

Anyway, I think the green movements acumen is depleted now. I would have supported a lot of their issues but it seems they're more suited to a lobby group then a political force. Hopefully the recent local elections stops their power to kibosh real economic movement.

holidayhere wrote: »

IMO it should be developed like Las Rambles in Barcelona.
Not many cities have a street with the potential of O'Connell St.
It would revolutionise the city of the city and all of the side streets off O'Connell st.

O'Connell St., Dame St. etc. need to get rid of all the cars. Run tram lines down them in place of the cars serving the entire city (northside, airport, west, etc.). Cobble-stone the ground and stick some nice attractions in there. Even some deck chairs, time square-style, to create some sort of atmosphere.

(sorry for the rantish nature of the post, I've been away a lot in the last few months & coming home is depressing. I'll be exiting this miserable country as soon as I can tbh)

markopantelic

projectmayhem wrote: »

(sorry for the rantish nature of the post, I've been away a lot in the last few months & coming home is depressing. I'll be exiting this miserable country as soon as I can tbh)

Typical Irish attitude. We need to do something to make people listen to us, if people like you leave then nothing will ever change.

carlmango11

Ireland is a young country and just like other European countries hundreds of years ago, it's learning through it's mistakes.

markopantelic

Yeah exactly history has gone against us, it doesn't help that we live on an Island that is sparsley populated(i read that for a country of its size the population in comparison to other western european countries should be over 20 million today)

Ok I know this doesnt really explain Dublins not so great transport system but it does explain why ireland is bad.

But even Dublin ever gotten onto a bus during a weekeday, most of them are empty, same with the DART.

caff

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Dublin people have been obssessed with buying and owning houses. High rise apartments are what is needed but with the goofy Green bandwagon in full roll before the last election County Councils were quick to reject proposals for high rise buildings in the city. The most notable objection for me was the ''D4 Tower'' development in Ballsbridge. That would have been excellent for the area

If you could trust Irish developers to build them properly it would be great, lived in a few apartments around dublin and all of them were just shoddy, no soundproofing whatsoever. You could here peoples footsteps clearly in most and in one even listen to full conversations. The standard of apartment builds here is dismal.

Acacia

greyed wrote: »

@acacia

Obviously things are rough because of aforementioned bubble and retard politicians, we gets cuts, but why write off the entire city based on this? If every resident in every city around the world had your attitude then the world would be a shiithole. You think the worlds great cities never had problems??? Dublin has its problems alright but I dont get the Irish inferiority complex that some people have, its so indignant and pointless.

Umm, ill stop typing now :pac:

But I didn't write off the whole city- I complained about the lack of night-time public transport. Surely you agree it's more than a little annoying to try and get home from Dublin to the 'burbs past twelve o'clock at night. And realistically people need to get home at these times. (I assume you live in Dublin or near it. )

You're kind of putting words in my mouth, too- I never said there was no other city in the world with problems, nor does my point about a lack of transport at night have anything to do with an Irish inferiority complex. I never even mentioned any other city in my post.

My point about Dublin probably going to sh1t in the next few years is due to the lack of faith I have in the city council's/government's ability to plan and develop the city (the non-connecting Luas lines and Port Tunnel fiasco would be two examples). It's not really anything to do with the collapse of the Celtic Tiger or times being 'rough' either- these problems were around during the Celtic Tiger , too.

That's not to say it's the worst city in the world by any means. I actually think it's better to complain about certain problems because maybe then things will get done to improve them. In my humble opinion, it is better than being complacent and saying ''well it's not the only city with problems''- respectfully, I think that kind of attitude is what would lead to cities becoming ''sh1tholes''.

holidayhere

markopantelic wrote: »

What way would you change it any ideas?

Make it pedestrian only.
Develop (widen) / cover over the centre area to include restaurants, stalls, etc. The side streets would start to buzz.

projectmayhem

markopantelic wrote: »

if people like you leave then nothing will ever change.

That may be so but I've been here all my life and the government haven't really changed much. They added more buses and a LUAS that serves an area served already by the DART (in some places) with no thought to the airport, phoenix park, etc.

I can't see anything changing in the next 10 years. I have to wait 20-30 years for a metro to the airport and a decent political movement in Ireland then it's not worth staying.

Hier ben ik gaan!

carlmango11 wrote: »

Ireland is a young country and just like other European countries hundreds of years ago, it's learning through it's mistakes.

...rather then looking at similar examples from countries our size/population/gdp etc. in the past and seeing where they went right/wrong.

greyed

project m wrote:

I came home from the states yesterday and nearly blew a gasket when I got off my plane to walk out to a row of taxi's and 2 buses. Where's the rail link to the city? Where's the inter-city connections to Galway, Cork & Belfast? This is the airport of a major European city, or so we like to think. Every single dignitary, tourist, businessman and even Irish person travelling to/from this city have to pass through our Airport. The Airport itself is fine, and terminal 2 will be great. But it's far away from anything, and there's no real way to get anywhere without hiring a taxi/private driver (buses are too inefficient). Any other major (or even minor!) city in the world has some rail link from the airport to the city. It takes less then 20minutes to get from Schiphol to centraal station on a train that goes direct. It should be the exact same for Dublin. The distance is about the same!

Metro North starts construction next year, or perhaps even early this year, but it has been put out to tender and so it will be the exact same for Dublin. I agree, its been a farce, like many other things but patience pm:D (like that name)

Interesting video of it: http://www.rpa.ie/PublishingImages/Metro%20North/MN%20RO%20OH%203D%20Flash%20Movies%20080409/Metro_North_Final_Animation.swf

project mayhem wrote:

Hopefully there will be more competent politicians in office. But there probably won't be. We voted in a shower of eejits time & time again and let them get away with it. Irish people have set a precedent. Can you really see Fine Gael fixing things better?

Unfortunately, I have no idea, I can only hope their time in opposition has lead to some tangible conclusions. But, again, this will not motivate me to abandon my country, simply because it has made mistakes. There seems to be a political learning curve that comes with wealth, ours is recent, so hopefully we've hit the peak (quite severely:pac:) I have never voted FF, I cant imagine why 20% or so continue to do so... archaic dynastic voting I guess.

Im not sure what kind of powers the mayor will have, but hopefully he/she will be chair of DTA. You know anything more?

p.m. wrote:

The fact that that's an argument is bizzare. You admit Amsterdam is fairly shiny now then, yes?

Umm, yes, of course. Why is that bizarre? that is my argument, we need to try and change things here like they did instead of just moving there.

pm wrote:

I can't see anything changing in the next 10 years. I have to wait 20-30 years for a metro to the airport and a decent political movement in Ireland then it's not worth staying.

Next general election is likely to provide some interesting results, that will be a significant change to Irish politics in the near future, and like I said above, you should only be waiting 2yrs and 4yrs respectively:D

marko wrote:

Yeah exactly history has gone against us, it doesn't help that we live on an Island that is sparsley populated(i read that for a country of its size the population in comparison to other western european countries should be over 20 million today)

Yeah, Ireland has had some pretty unfortunate history, this does have a lot to do with its current form, why our recent wealth was new experience and why comparison with cities like amsterdam is slightly unfair... However, Im all for the comparison, as its a good model.

acacia wrote:

But I didn't write off the whole city- I complained about the lack of night-time public transport. Surely you agree it's more than a little annoying to try and get home from Dublin to the 'burbs past twelve o'clock at night. And realistically people need to get home at these times. (I assume you live in Dublin or near it. )

You're kind of putting words in my mouth, too- I never said there was no other city in the world with problems, nor does my point about a lack of transport at night have anything to do with an Irish inferiority complex. I never even mentioned any other city in my post.

Ahm, yup, sorry I just assumed seeing as its so prevalent(the attitude).
And yes, I do live in Dublin and find that very annoying all right. Unfortunately it seems the city cant afford it right now, but some time in the future, im sure it will be able to again. In the mean time public transport should improve quite a bit in the next 5-7 years as we should have a metro line, 2 DART lines underground in city center with connected luas and possibly third Luas line, along with extensions to existing ones despite major economic contraction (mwha! no 'r' in there)

acacia wrote:

In my humble opinion, it is better than being complacent and saying ''well it's not the only city with problems''- respectfully, I think that kind of attitude is what would lead to cities becoming ''sh1tholes''.

Yeah, no I agree completely, I just misinterpreted your comments as defeatist. Whups.

As such project mayhem, I command you to stay and help build a wonderful utopia.

pm wrote:

sorry for the rantish nature of the post

+1