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Vegetarians on Abortion.

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    #62
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Ah ok thanks. :)


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    #63
    lizzyvera
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭lizzyvera


    Mentalmiss wrote: »
    I am vegan and atheist and firmly anti abortion.
    By all means be pro choice but make the choice before you have sex and use contraception.
    I would not try to stop anyone else having an abortion and in fact have travelled twice to the UK to accompany others who had made that choice. I think that we should educate people and not condemn them.

    Wow I thought I was the only veggie athiest anti-abortion person on the planet. I've never heard a pro choice person give a logical time for a human to develop rights. It's all I ever ask and they never answer.
    Everyone seems to think we have the right to do whatever the hell we feel like regardless of consequences. Makes me a bit sad.


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    #64
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    lizzyvera wrote: »
    Wow I thought I was the only veggie athiest anti-abortion person on the planet. I've never heard a pro choice person give a logical time for a human to develop rights. It's all I ever ask and they never answer.

    I'd say most would say when it gets a nervous system/can feel pain or have thoughts?


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    #65
    lizzyvera
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭lizzyvera


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    I'd say most would say when it gets a nervous system/can feel pain or have thoughts?

    That would be far earlier than any country sets a limit, so that is definitely not what most people think. At the latest, that would be 12 weeks.
    Edit to say you can't actually determine when something feels pain. Responding to an bodily insult doesn't mean they consciously register "pain". A lot of animals fall in this category too, which is why we boil lobsters alive etc.


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    #66
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    lizzyvera wrote: »
    That would be far earlier than any country sets a limit, so that is definitely not what most people think.

    What most people think does not reflect a law in a lot of cases. See blasphemy/abortion laws here for example.

    I don't know what most people say, that is just what some say! Some advocate everything is fine until birth, everybody differs.


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    #67
    lizzyvera
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭lizzyvera


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    What most people think does not reflect a law in a lot of cases. See blasphemy/abortion laws here for example.

    I don't know what most people say, that is just what some say! Some advocate everything is fine until birth, everybody differs.

    That's my problem though. You say when the thing starts to "have thoughts", but that's completely arbitrary. There is brain activity from an early stage, and a sense of surroundings but it's not going to play chess. A new born baby's "thoughts" are also nowhere near as advanced as what we would call thoughts. To one person "having thoughts" could mean well after birth.

    Other people pluck numbers from the air. "At 24 weeks, a soul enters it's body and it's a human being with rights".

    In weeks and days, with a defined physical occurance, when does a human acquire rights?

    I actually don't fell that an embryo is a perosn, but since I can't think of anything definite that happens after that, logically, it is.


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    #68
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I can't really answer for other people on that, they will have disimilar views and will argrue about when something can think, what thinking is and what constitutes the ability to feel pain.


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    #69
    lizzyvera
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭lizzyvera


    Yeah, I know! In a hundred conversations nobody has ever given a real answer to the question.

    I like to keep an open mind about it, because ALL my other views are so libertarian. I just need to hear a convincing argument. I don't LIKE foetuses, but I have to be morally consistant. I really need to see where people are coming from on it.

    I get such a mish mash of biology and religion and sociology and pop psychology when I try to discuss it that it's hard to discern.


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    #70
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    For you, would you be for abortion at an early age, when they defiinitely have no capabilities to feel/think whatsoever? Or say it was proven that they couldnt before 8 weeks or something, would you approve or disapprove of them before then?


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    #71
    lizzyvera
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭lizzyvera


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    For you, would you be for abortion at an early age, when they defiinitely have no capabilities to feel/think whatsoever? Or say it was proven that they couldnt before 8 weeks or something, would you approve or disapprove of them before then?


    I don't know. I'm trying to make my mind up. I don't know if rights should have criteria like that. I prefer to think that all humans have rights rather than humans with x y and z traits have rights. The only "absolute" in my mind is that it is wrong to kill innocent humans.

    Also, after implantation, nothing suddenly happens that makes me think "ah, it's a person now". When it is on a continuum like that, any date we set is arbitrary, and I would worry that we're being inconsistant with our morals. It's too easy to do what you want and what suits you, and then argue for it.

    You can't prove "thoughts" until you define "thoughts", and that would also be up for debate.

    On the other hand, an embryo does not seem to me like something to be cared about. There is effectively no difference between a human embryo and a frog embryo I disect in labs. I need a better definition of what makes a human a human.

    I also have this issue with animals. I would avoid hurting anything that can feel, but I eat bread which is probably full of insects. I avoid imported cosmetics which are tested on animals, but I'd take medicine that is animal tested. I can only do my best! I can't really see the line between humans and great apes. Then I wonder about other animals, and where I draw the line. It's very hard to draw the line on these issues.


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    #72
    rather_not
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭rather_not


    Almost vegan and totally pro-choice.
    And not radical left wing by the way.


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    #73
    Eviecus
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭Eviecus


    I am unsure on how I feel about this. I always thought I was pro-choice but I'm not so sure. I couldn't have an abortion myself but when I think of women that have been abused I can understand why they would want an abortion. I think if a person has not taken precautions and has not been careful then that is no reason to have an abortion but if someone has been raped, for example, I think it should be tolerated and accepted if they want to abort the child. I think it really does depend on the circumstances. I would not have an abortion - I can only speak for myself...I can't make decisions for everyone else!


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