Homosexual Adoption opinions.

Boston

And also your partner wouldn't be able to adopt the child unless the father gave up his paternal rights.

Nevyn

Assuming he has any Boston.

mobius42

Thaedydal wrote: »

Assuming he has any Boston.

Stark

mobius42 wrote: »

The comma issue has been done already: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055166144

Bottle_of_Smoke

ding-dong wrote: »

This topic caught my eye and I couldn't help but contribute to this meandering thread. Seriously folks, there have been countless studies done on this subject. I'm quite shocked at the lack of a decent response on here - aren't most of you gay/bi?! Hell, how are you going to get your rights if you don't know your stuff?

CANADIAN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT:

"Parenting by same-sex families is just as good -- if not slightly advantageous -- for children when compared to heterosexual families, a Justice Department study has concluded."

"The paper references about 100 studies on parenting and children's development."

WEBMD:

"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."

AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION:

"Fears about children of lesbians and gay men being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities have received no support from the results of existing research.
According to a report by the American Psychological Association, not one study out of nearly 50 found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect to those children raised by heterosexual parents."

And I could keep going if I had the time. SO. MANY. STUDIES. Here you go, a nice happy gay family: http://www.youtube.com/depfox

OK?

This is not an issue. Are all you people making points against gay adoption ignorant straight people or ignorant self-doubting gay/bi folk? Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude - just pointing out that it shouldn't take two pages on lesbian/gay/bisexual forum for someone to put an end to this debate...and hell, I'm a stranger here! Hi by the way

Relax there, your defensiveness kind of implies you have some hidden doubts yourself

Anyhow, interesting links. Read all of them. One thing to note about your snappy little outburst - all these studies were on children with two female parents. This is understandable given it's a lot easier for two women to find sperm than it is two men to find a uterus.

It must however be recognised, these studies do not show homosexual adoption isn't an issue. They could well show that Lesbian adoption is not an issue, but it provides no evidence male homosexuality causes no negative results.

Now, this is a serious issue. Sexual discrimination laws would probably rule that if we allow Lesbians adopt we must allow gay men. Two of those articles you linked suggested children of Lesbian couples tend to fare slightly better than those of heterosexual couples in some areas. Could this suggest children of two male parents will fare slightly worse? I don't know but if they do is it fair on those children? We have to remember that although men and women are equal, they are most certainly different.

Personally I'm no longer totally against gay adoption as I once was, I'm unsure to be honest. Those articles have actually made me slightly more supportive of the idea though. I only really replied to you in this manner because I think someone hugely against the idea will throw this argument back in your face, and it was a bit dishonest of you to not mention all those studies were on Lesbian couples

mobius42

The family in the youtube link was two men raising a family. I didn't see anything in those videos that would convince me that having gay male parents would do children any harm.

Reflector

Gay adoption should be allowed, it annoys me that any scumbag can have kids but if a same sex couple want to adopt and be thoroughly scrutinised and assesed before they can be even considered to be charged with a childs upbrining it is thought of as completely wrong.

P!nk

Thaedydal wrote: »

Hang on you can in this country legally nominate any person to be a child's guardian and gender has nothing to do with it. You just get the form fill it out and sign it in front of a justice of the peace/commissar for oaths and send it off to be processed. A guardian does not have to be a blood relative.

And any child who has a parent who is in anyway different had to deal with it,
good parents make sure that they can.

I never knew anything about that at all!! Whats involved in it do you and does the biological father have to sign it??
I have put it in the wishes of my will because I thought thats all I would be able to do!

P!nk

Boston wrote: »

And also your partner wouldn't be able to adopt the child unless the father gave up his paternal rights.

Would he have rights from the very begining or do I have to give him rights by signing a letter or anything? This is all new to me!!!

Nevyn

P!nk wrote: »

I never knew anything about that at all!! Whats involved in it do you and does the biological father have to sign it??
I have put it in the wishes of my will because I thought thats all I would be able to do!

http://www.treoir.ie/pdfs/guardianship.pdf

Guardians and Wills
All parents who are guardians but especially mothers who are sole
guardians, should make a will appointing a guardian to act on their
behalf in the event of their death. It is advisable to talk it over with
someone who could and would like to act as guardian and get his/her
consent to be named in the will as a testamentary guardian. The
surviving guardian (if there is one) then acts jointly with the testamentary
guardian

There is a forum for appointing a someone as the legal guardian of a child, I can only find the oe for bestowing it on to fathers but any good family law solicitor will be able to draw one up for you and then you get it signed.

ding-dong

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Relax there, your defensiveness kind of implies you have some hidden doubts yourself

Anyhow, interesting links. Read all of them. One thing to note about your snappy little outburst - all these studies were on children with two female parents. This is understandable given it's a lot easier for two women to find sperm than it is two men to find a uterus.

It must however be recognised, these studies do not show homosexual adoption isn't an issue. They could well show that Lesbian adoption is not an issue, but it provides no evidence male homosexuality causes no negative results.

Now, this is a serious issue. Sexual discrimination laws would probably rule that if we allow Lesbians adopt we must allow gay men. Two of those articles you linked suggested children of Lesbian couples tend to fare slightly better than those of heterosexual couples in some areas. Could this suggest children of two male parents will fare slightly worse? I don't know but if they do is it fair on those children? We have to remember that although men and women are equal, they are most certainly different.

Personally I'm no longer totally against gay adoption as I once was, I'm unsure to be honest. Those articles have actually made me slightly more supportive of the idea though. I only really replied to you in this manner because I think someone hugely against the idea will throw this argument back in your face, and it was a bit dishonest of you to not mention all those studies were on Lesbian couples

"Anyhow", first of all let me begin by saying that my "defensiveness" and "snappy little outburst" doesn't imply anything other than the fact that I think this discussion is ridiculous and I'm frustrated that people talk about this as if it is an issue. I do believe the onus is on you to show me evidence that gay male parents and male single parents are inadequate parents. I really don't believe there is any legitimate argument that can be "thrown back in my face". As the APA study says:

"In summary, there is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth."

Interestingly not only are there differences between men and women, but there are also differences between straight men and gay men...

The American Academy of Pediatrics, 2002:
"Compared with heterosexual fathers, gay fathers have been described to adhere to stricter disciplinary guidelines, to place greater emphasis on guidance and the development of cognitive skills, and to be more involved in their children's activities."

Actually, there are also differences between:
- Black parents and white parents
- Religious parents and non-religious parents
- American parents and Indian parents
- Rich parents and poor parents
- Parents who work at home and parents who work in the office

Of course, the list goes on.

We are all individuals and we are all different. There is simply no good reason to deny gay male couples the right to adopt. Gay men have been demonized as child molesters and perverts for decades so I don't blame you for your ignorant default position - but I'm not the one that should be providing evidence here. I only really replied to you in this manner because I think someone might be offended by your slightly sexist argument which disparages not only gay males, but males in general. It also inadvertently casts suspicion on male single parents. It was a bit dishonest of you to imply that gay male parents are inferior without showing a shred of evidence.

smileykey

I've a friend who has lesbimums. They have raised him from conception together for 23 years and yet one of his parents is legally a stranger to him and there is nothing they can do about - its horrible.

Thankfully I live in the UK now. So when my partner has our child I can automatically go on the birth cert. Won't even have to adopt him/her I'll be a parent from birth.

Bottle_of_Smoke

ding-dong wrote: »

We are all individuals and we are all different. There is simply no good reason to deny gay male couples the right to adopt. Gay men have been demonized as child molesters and perverts for decades so I don't blame you for your ignorant default position - but I'm not the one that should be providing evidence here. I only really replied to you in this manner because I think someone might be offended by your slightly sexist argument which disparages not only gay males, but males in general. It also inadvertently casts suspicion on male single parents. It was a bit dishonest of you to imply that gay male parents are inferior without showing a shred of evidence.

No, I didn't do that, even if I did I don't see how it would be "dishonest", ignorant perhaps. If you're going to take that position there's little point discussing it with you

Boston

P!nk wrote: »

Would he have rights from the very begining or do I have to give him rights by signing a letter or anything? This is all new to me!!!

Unmarried fathers don't have automatic rights in Ireland. You can agree to make him a joint guardian or he can petition the courts to be made one.

See this site for more detailed information.

Essentially the best approach is to make you partner a guardian, that way even if the father successfully petitions to be made a joint guardian, your partner should still have a role in the child's life.

ding-dong

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No, I didn't do that, even if I did I don't see how it would be "dishonest", ignorant perhaps. If you're going to take that position there's little point discussing it with you

Oh the indignation! I was merely lifting the accusation of "dishonesty" from your initial response to my post and um, "throwing it back in your face". If you can't take it, don't dish it. I am indeed interested in continuing this discussion if you have anything more to say. I urge you to look at these guys YouTube videos - it's important to put a human face on this topic:

http://www.youtube.com/user/depfox

Ambersky

Ding-Dong I love your your posts, especially the first one where you say
"I'm quite shocked at the lack of a decent response on here - aren't most of you gay/bi?!"
I would also like to join you in asking the question
"Are all you people making points against gay adoption ignorant straight people or ignorant self-doubting gay/bi folk?"

The patronising response to your articulate response especially the "relax there....with your snappy little outburst"
says a lot about the kind of forum this is.

I have been reading boards for some time now and find it useful for info on purchases and fixing things but
I think the forum Lesbian Gay and Bisexual, attracts too many people who maybe want a bit of a sexual thrill, an argument, or an education.
Even the ones looking for an education come with a heterosexist agenda and are usually out to challenge and test gays.
They think because their experience is the norm, numerically, that they have an objectivity lacking among lesbians and gays who are according to their way of thinking, naturally biased on the subject. The way they come on it looks like they believe they have more to teach lesbians and gays than they have to learn.
Most dont actually believe you have anything to teach them, but might with a struggle, concede the occasional point if you have enough published "facts" to show them.

And is it really worth it?
Is this baiting and argument really going to change anyones mind.
I think Ive only ever read one thread, on another board, where a man said he came to it full of prejudice and now he has changed his mind. He said he changed his mind because of the arguments put forward to him, thanked everybody and didnt add in any other buts, or ifs, or conditions.
Has this ever happened on this forum?
I would really like to be more positive about this and to believe that all the argument actually changes minds and leads to more openess and understanding.

I would prefer to see a section of this forum dedicated to the education of straight people, for people who want to ask genuine questions and for LGBT people who feel like answering them.
There is enough internalised homophobia and lesbophobia to be dealing with among the LGBT community.

ixoy

What's wrong with people coming here to educate themselves? What's wrong with them seeking genuine answers and encouraging debate? You claim that it rarely changes people's opinions (although we can't say that it hasn't) but surely if it even pushes them to consider other views, or respect, them, then that's a positive.

For example, this thread alone could allow people to understand the prejudicial way kids of gay parents are handled. Just because those posting are often on one-side of the argument doesn't mean that everybody reading is. The thread has 46 posts but 943 views - clearly people other than posters are reading it. Maybe their views are being challeneged or they're learning new things.

Also:

There is enough internalised homophobia and lesbophobia to be dealing with among the LGBT community without boards like this having to deal with educating straight people.

Now that's a divise attitude there - a "them vs us" mentality. This is a forum for LGB matters and that does not exclude anyone. All sexualities can post here about all LGB matters.

Ambersky

Boards.ie has forums dedicated to Politics, Education, Parenting, Humour, The Economy, Marriage, Philisophy, Personal Issues, Recreation, News and Media, Recreaton, etc etc etc.
Everyone and anyone can contribute to any topics on any of those forums.
The issue is heterosexuals vastly outnumber LGBT members.
LGBT members can comment and give their opinion on any issue raised in any of those forums but if an issue that is of concern to them comes up they can expect to be outnumbered.
Thats not pre judging what the outcome of such an interaction would be.
On an issue such as adoption by lesbians and gays I would expect opinion to be divided and quite heated. I dont know what the majority opinion is on the subject nor who would argue most effectively.

If its just me that has the divisive attitude why is there a seperate Lesbian and Gay and Bisexual forum at all?

Is it not so that we can debate things among ourselve, a place where we are in the majority and not having to put up with homophobia.

Again whats wrong with a seperate section on the Lesbian Gay and Bisexual forum for straight people to ask questions. It would allow for inclusion of everyone and Gay people would still have a place to ourselves.

Stark

Ambersky wrote: »

Again whats wrong with a seperate section on the Lesbian Gay and Bisexual forum for straight people to ask questions. It would allow for inclusion of everyone and Gay people would still have a place to ourselves.

It's not what boards is about. You don't have to be an economist to post in "Economy", a parent to post in "Parenting", a Christian to post in "Christianity" etc.

If you want to post in an exclusively gay environment, there are forums like www.gaire.com, www.gaycork.com , www.angrypotato.net , www.gcn.ie, www.queerid.com and the likes.

Tbh, this forum would die a death if we didn't allow non-gay posters.

Ambersky

You know I think that is the truth of it Stark.
This forum as it exists is mainly or at least dependant on it non gay posters.
To my mind thats what prevents it from actually being a Lesbian Gay and Bi forum.
I have been a member of boards for some time and I am gay but this forum has not really appealed to me. Thats me and Im sure the forum will get along just as it is without my input.
The other forums you mentioned are not exclusively gay.
They have straight members and straight moderators.
But they do preserve the integrity of their being gay forums mainly for gay members.
Maybe thats not possible to do on boards.ie as once you are a member here you can go where you like.
Even if you asked members to state their orientation on their profile as they do on Gaire not all gay members would feel comfortable posting in other areas. So I do see some difficulties.
Maybe the topic got so heated because it raises the question of whether Lesbians and Gays " should be allowed" to be parents.
This may be an objective question for debate for some people, an interesting little question to amuse oneself with.
That would be forgetting that on a forum for Lesbian Gay and Bi people you may be talking to people who have children. Who take the question very personally.
Thanks for letting me post about my frustrations here and do keep in mind that if one member is taking the time to post about this, there may be others with simular concerns.

ixoy

To be honest, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone having a problem/issue with an LGB forum that's open to a potentially much larger hetro-sexual group. Bar the odd troll here and there, I think such inclusiveness is something to be welcomed, especially given we'd all prefer to ultimately be in a world where such declarations of sexuality are mostly irrelevant.

Dazd_N_Confusd

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

IM not sure if ye have spoken about this before and its being spoken about on another forum but i have come here to seek the opinions of others.

Do you think it should be aloud?

Dont get me wrong for the couple of course it would be a great thing.. but it would surely have a deep affect on the child's up bringing such as confusion or being bullied at school.

By this logic minority groups shouldn't adopt either, for fear of being bullied. Two parents of the same sex is better than none!

Dazd_N_Confusd

Fol20 wrote: »

I think you nailed it.What comes first is how it affects the child and for this very reason i object to gay adoptions.Im all for equality and i am pro gay marriage as its 2 consenting adults who choose their path.Children on the otherhand didnt have a choice and are very impressionable .Having a gay couple raise them will affect them in the wrong way in my opinion.I know there are many broken families but when it comes down to it,the most balanced upbringing for a child is both a mother and father.

But how is a spending your youth in an orphanage better than the possibility of bullying?

Every time you set foot in a car there is the potential to die in a horrific car crash. Does that mean cars should be illegal?

Reflector

Fol20 wrote: »

I think you nailed it.What comes first is how it affects the child and for this very reason i object to gay adoptions.Im all for equality and i am pro gay marriage as its 2 consenting adults who choose their path.Children on the otherhand didnt have a choice and are very impressionable .Having a gay couple raise them will affect them in the wrong way in my opinion.I know there are many broken families but when it comes down to it,the most balanced upbringing for a child is both a mother and father.

I agree that a perfect upbringing is a mother and a father, but I'm afraid we don't live in a perfect world.Fred and Rosemary West weren't exactly darling parents.

Many children need stable homes and many gay couples can and want to provide them. I don't think you can be pro gay but anti gay adoption. By saying that it would have a negative effect on the child you are therefore saying that a gay relationship is negative and somehow improper.

Children only carry their parents prejudices and any bullying should be severly dealt with in schools.

All children hate feeling different but thats part of growing up is developing your individuality and any child would be lucky to have a stable home with two parents regardless of gender.

ding-dong

Ambersky thanks for your words I guess I was just somewhat surprised at how some threads on here last as long as they do. There's one called "ignoring gay urges" which goes nowhere fast. Thankfully, it was locked - as was "A honest mistake!". I'm sure there is no shortage of boards.ie LGBT users, maybe they're not out on boards I bet you there would be more posts here if people could write anonymous posts!

Boston

ding-dong wrote: »

I bet you there would be more posts here if people could write anonymous posts!

They can.

ding-dong

Very sorry - I just read the charter.

Boston wrote: »

They can.

Boston

No problem. I also liked your first post even if it did some across a tad abrasive. It had never really occurred to me to cite studies in support of gay adoption.

I actually see where Ambersky is coming from but I wouldn't agree wholeheartedly with her solution. For me this forum is primarily for gay* people to discuss gay issues in a safe and supportive environment. A lot of these issues aren't particularly unique to being gay and I see no reason why a heterosexual person couldn't have a valid insight into some, perhaps all, the issues which pop up here. If someone comes here and wishes to be educated and demonstrates an open mind, I've no problem with that either. However, lately I noticed a undercurrent to these threads whereby a poster will pose a seemingly innocent question which will be loaded with all sorts of negative connotations. I have to wonder if these threads are making it more difficult for gay people to use this forum as a support tool?

This all is very much off topic though, perhpas a thread split?

* For the purpose of readability gay is being used as a synonym for LGBT.

Nevyn

ding-dong wrote: »

I'm sure there is no shortage of boards.ie LGBT users, maybe they're not out on boards

I know a fair few who choose not to be 'out' on boards as Ireland is a small place and also they do not want them or their posts to be treated differently in the other forums they regularly post in due to them being regular posters here.

ding-dong

Boston wrote: »

No problem. I also liked your first post even if it did some across a tad abrasive. It had never really occurred to me to cite studies in support of gay adoption.

I actually see where Ambersky is coming from but I wouldn't agree wholeheartedly with her solution. For me this forum is primarily for gay* people to discuss gay issues in a safe and supportive environment. A lot of these issues aren't particularly unique to being gay and I see no reason why a heterosexual person couldn't have a valid insight into some, perhaps all, the issues which pop up here. If someone comes here and wishes to be educated and demonstrates an open mind, I've no problem with that either. However, lately I noticed a undercurrent to these threads whereby a poster will pose a seemingly innocent question which will be loaded with all sorts of negative connotations. I have to wonder if these threads are making it more difficult for gay people to use this forum as a support tool?

This all is very much off topic though, perhpas a thread split?

* For the purpose of readability gay is being used as a synonym for LGBT.

Yeah sorry about that, I do realize that it was abrasive - I'm far more diplomatic in real life! It's just that it amazes me how often valuable research is ignored. I guess that's the media's fault though. As for a discussion on the people who come on here with ulterior motives and cause problems, perhaps they do deserve their own thread. If somebody comes here with a legitimate question or looking for support, they should be getting a clear, honest answer as far as I'm concerned. Not everything is a matter of opinion. Sometimes, there's a right answer and a wrong answer.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I know a fair few who choose not to be 'out' on boards as Ireland is a small place and also they do not want them or their posts to be treated differently in the other forums they regularly post in due to them being regular posters here.

Oh sure, I certianly understand! It's a sad reflection of real life