"If I'm not out there training, someone else is."

dna_leri

I would not see anything wrong with doing a 800-400m pace session in the pre-comp phase of a 1500m plan. In fact there would be something wrong if you did not do them (though Jack Daniels might disagree). In an 800m race (or a 1500m championship event) you will need to be able to cover the first 200m in around 30s to get yourself into position. You do not want that to be the first time you hit those paces.

ECOLII

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Is this from a Magness programme? I get they're not the main sessions but just haven't come across these type of sessions myself in the past so was interested.

Yup from the Magness programme alright I have an excel done up with my training and I will post up (without the few tweaks I have made myself) to give you an idea of the training for this block.

These broken sets are actually not too uncommon believe it or not and, funny enough, I was talking to a lad over the weekend about them sessions and his old college coach (1.46/3.35 man) seemed to be a big fan and had him doing good bit of this style of work.

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Wouldn't disagree with you but I'd be surprised if the length of recoveries for these sets of 100s were very more than a minute and I'd expect the volume of them to be quite high 10+. If you look at most marathon runners you will see they talk about throwing in "some strides", that's what road runners refer to sets of 100 metres as!

I think that Salazar had them doing a good bit of work with John Cook in the past and not all the sessions would be what are typically described as distance type sessions with a huge emphasis on long recoveries due to the CNS susceptibility to fatigue. (Open to correction on this part though)

thewolf_ie

ECOLII wrote: »

Mileage last week was around 75, to be honest I am not really tracking it that closely I am just running frequently and letting the training excel do the counting for me and what ever comes out at the end of the week well and good.

Loss of speed? Didn't I see you bust out a 60 sec 400 after a 13 mile run? Would say the speed hasn't gone away and you will surprise yourself with how quickly turnover can be brushed up if you have a good base (and a few strides after easy running)

Yes but I was pushing like I was trying to hit 55. And then during 12 x 400 off 60 seconds last night I found it hard hit 79-77 and even got a couple of 81. Maybe it was the cold, snow and all the layers. Just felt my body won't kick into the higher gear to get into mile pace. Maybe I just need to get down to that 1500 and hit it hard!

ECOLII

thewolf_ie wrote: »

Yes but I was pushing like I was trying to hit 55. And then during 12 x 400 off 60 seconds last night I found it hard hit 79-77 and even got a couple of 81. Maybe it was the cold, snow and all the layers. Just felt my body won't kick into the higher gear to get into mile pace. Maybe I just need to get down to that 1500 and hit it hard!

Weather can play a major factor. I would say that unless you are targetting indoors it's probably a good thing that you are not sharp at this stage of the year. The speed stuff is the icing on the cake. While all the fast stuff and sessions that look great on paper usually happen in the last few weeks of training ultimately they don't mean squat unless you have the substance put in prior to that.


"Milers are made in winter not in summer"

(Can't remember who said it but great quote)

dna_leri

ECOLII wrote: »

I think that Salazar had them doing a good bit of work with John Cook in the past and not all the sessions would be what are typically described as distance type sessions ...

John Smith too, allegedly :rolleyes:

http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2013/03/oregon_track_field_rundown_alb_9.html

thewolf_ie

ECOLII wrote: »

Weather can play a major factor. I would say that unless you are targetting indoors it's probably a good thing that you are not sharp at this stage of the year. The speed stuff is the icing on the cake. While all the fast stuff and sessions that look great on paper usually happen in the last few weeks of training ultimately they don't mean squat unless you have the substance put in prior to that.


"Milers are made in winter not in summer"

(Can't remember who said it but great quote)

Ah yes you are correct indoor will be a session not a race if I even go. Only reason I do a few blocks of fast stuff is to maintain my stride and I like doing it.

ECOLII

dna_leri wrote: »

John Smith too, allegedly :rolleyes:

http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2013/03/oregon_track_field_rundown_alb_9.html

Right you are sorry getting mixed up with Cook who was involved with NOP in the very early stages

TRR_the_turd

dna_leri wrote: »

John Smith too, allegedly :rolleyes:

http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2013/03/oregon_track_field_rundown_alb_9.html

If it's good enough for the junkies, it's good enough for ecoli!

ECOLII

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

If it's good enough for the junkies, it's good enough for ecoli!

You can take the man out of Tallaght but not Tallaght out of the man :P

ECOLII

Wednesday PM 30 min flexibility

Maybe I am going soft in my old age but despite the ego telling me to man up and face a bit of weather my head was telling me that this run was gonna be counterproductive and I would get more out of a bit of flexibility work.

Thursday AM 5 miles easy (7.07 min pace)

Handy one around Tymon park this morning, a little sluggish at the start but got into it nicely, was supposed to have a 1500m paced session tomorrow but if don't improve I will probably swap it with Sunday's session given that one I can do from a more effort based perspective.

Oregano_State

I agree with you on the decision to duck the weather! Can't be doing any type of quality running in that crap out there at the moment. I was waiting around all day yesterday in my running gear waiting for a calm window that never materialised, and it was quiet enough earlier today until the exact moment I get my runners on, and then it starts howling wind and pissing rain again!

:mad:

ECOLII

Oregano_State wrote: »

I agree with you on the decision to duck the weather! Can't be doing any type of quality running in that crap out there at the moment. I was waiting around all day yesterday in my running gear waiting for a calm window that never materialised, and it was quiet enough earlier today until the exact moment I get my runners on, and then it starts howling wind and pissing rain again!

:mad:

I have no problem with running in that weather for easy runs and tempos and the like but for 1500m paced stuff if possible I would prefer to try and be in ball park of race paces beyond just effort if for nothing else than the mental aspect

With last night was more just a case of happy to leave it at the 10 from the AM and do a bit of flexibility work over a short run.

Hopefully this storm blows over Sunday morning (but not before Saturday night as goig to the Leinster game and the handicap on Castre looks very big considering windy conditions )

ECOLII

Thursday PM 8 miles easy (7.10 min pace)

Was not in the mood of this however given how much the wind had died down in comparison to the day before I had no excuse. Decided to be tactic with my route choice and venture up to Brother's Pearse territory (thankfully under the stealth of night I could manage to roam these streets without being lynched :P) I purposely made this an out and back loop with wind in my face on way out, in this way I was able to convince myself that realistically this was only a 4 mile of a bit of mental effort and the last 4 would just be cruising home. This helped and after four miles of numbing wind in my face as well as rain I turned a corner and things were hunky dory. Surprised the 1st half was as quick pace was ass it was but really reeled myself back in the second half of the run.

Friday AM

2.5 miles easy,
1 miles stride straights/jog bends
5x400m with 100m jog rec (35 sec ave)
2.5 miles easy

Splits: 70, 70, 71, 71, 71

Today proved to me why I am not a morning person for sessions, I struggle to get the motivation in the morning's unless I am up and active for a few hours so sensibly I headed out for breakfast and got a number of errands ran and low and behold that teeny tiny Obama voice spoke out with a "Yes we can".

Down to the track and the warm up and strides did not feel great I was as sluggish as hell and with the wind while not to bad I felt would be worth atleast a second. Hit the first one and it felt very controlled however this was short lived as after the second one I could really feel the short recoveries, by the third one I was hurting and legs were getting rubbery, 4th one really felt like third lap of a 1500m so I put in a real effort to stay relaxed and hold form. Last one and legs were gone so it was just about digging in and seeing what I had left.

Very happy with that session as the more I thought about it the more I was dreading it but a great race simulation one for the race in 2 weeks and inspired a good bit of confidence.

TRR_the_turd

ECOLII wrote: »

Very happy with that session as the more I thought about it the more I was dreading it but a great race simulation one for the race in 2 weeks and inspired a good bit of confidence.

now that's my sort of session Perfect race simulation.

Back in the day when I use to run these sessions we'd do something similar or sometimes alter the distances. So for 1500
600-400-300-200
600 and 400 would be at goal race pace
Would be a slight pick up on the 300 and 200 would be eyeballs out.

I was a young buck at the time so recoveries would have been more than 35 seconds, maybe a minute. These were the benchmark sessions I would have been familiar with.

ECOLII

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

now that's my sort of session Perfect race simulation.

Back in the day when I use to run these sessions we'd do something similar or sometimes alter the distances. So for 1500
600-400-300-200
600 and 400 would be at goal race pace
Would be a slight pick up on the 300 and 200 would be eyeballs out.

I was a young buck at the time so recoveries would have been more than 35 seconds, maybe a minute. These were the benchmark sessions I would have been familiar with.

That breakdown one you mention looks a really good one for getting someone in good race shape for sure.

Not criticizing a session?

People beware there is a turd floating in the waters looking for a new target :P:P

TRR_the_turd

ECOLII wrote: »

People beware there is a turd floating in the waters looking for a new target :P:P

thewolf_ie

ECOLII wrote: »

Thursday PM 8 miles easy (7.10 min pace)

Was not in the mood of this however given how much the wind had died down in comparison to the day before I had no excuse. Decided to be tactic with my route choice and venture up to Brother's Pearse territory (thankfully under the stealth of night I could manage to roam these streets without being lynched :P) I purposely made this an out and back loop with wind in my face on way out, in this way I was able to convince myself that realistically this was only a 4 mile of a bit of mental effort and the last 4 would just be cruising home. This helped and after four miles of numbing wind in my face as well as rain I turned a corner and things were hunky dory. Surprised the 1st half was as quick pace was ass it was but really reeled myself back in the second half of the run.

Friday AM

2.5 miles easy,
1 miles stride straights/jog bends
5x400m with 100m jog rec (35 sec ave)
2.5 miles easy

Splits: 70, 70, 71, 71, 71

Today proved to me why I am not a morning person for sessions, I struggle to get the motivation in the morning's unless I am up and active for a few hours so sensibly I headed out for breakfast and got a number of errands ran and low and behold that teeny tiny Obama voice spoke out with a "Yes we can".

Down to the track and the warm up and strides did not feel great I was as sluggish as hell and with the wind while not to bad I felt would be worth atleast a second. Hit the first one and it felt very controlled however this was short lived as after the second one I could really feel the short recoveries, by the third one I was hurting and legs were getting rubbery, 4th one really felt like third lap of a 1500m so I put in a real effort to stay relaxed and hold form. Last one and legs were gone so it was just about digging in and seeing what I had left.

Very happy with that session as the more I thought about it the more I was dreading it but a great race simulation one for the race in 2 weeks and inspired a good bit of confidence.

That's the session I done before running the 1500 at Tallaght. At the time I didn't know it was a bench mark session as my coach doesn't give them fancy names. I remember thinking it must be an easy week as the reps were low and fast. It was my first time running on a track. It feels easier on race day though!

ThebitterLemon

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Is that a purple snack

TbL

ECOLII

Saturday 3 miles very handy (no watch)

Just tipped along with one of the lads from the club for this one. Brekkie not agreeing with me though and cut of short enough.

Sunday 8 miles easy (7.29 min pace)

Just a handy one tipping along. Took a page out of jebuz's playbook this week as the OH has joined the race effort, 2nd toblerone cheesecake of the week made, I will have to PB by the end of Feb otherwise I fear I will have to go on the Turd's Ricky Hatton style diet the way I am going haha

Monday AM

2.5 miles easy + 6x80m strides
5km tempo (3 min rec), 1km (2.30 rec) 600 (3 min rec) 5x150 (90 sec rec)

Splits
5km: 17.38 (3.31, 3.32, 3.33, 3.33, 3.29)
1km: 3.22
600: 1.54
150s: 21.7, 22.2, 21.9, 22.0, 21.8

This was one of those sessions where I was not stuck for time and enjoyed the build up to, didn't know how it was gonna go as was unsure where strength is at the moment but more a session up my alley than the most recent ones. Tempo was a little quicker than I thought it would be though felt very controlled, mp3 player died just before 4k but I just lengthened out the stride in the last one as I was convinced I was fading on the last two laps but when saw the split appeared I was consistent

The one km and I went off like a scalded cat, it was very poorly paced as I thought legs would be heavy so the effort would have to be high, each 200 was slower than the last though despite the poor pacing the overall rep pace was fine

600 was grand and I was enjoying working down through the gears, felt nice and controlled and form felt good.

The 150s hurt and struggled a bit to maintain form as I am not used to doing these on very heavy legs buts despite this the splits were consistent (variance being that every second one was into the very slight wind) By the end though I was happy to be done and very happy with the session overall

Dubgal72

Perfect splits on the 5k (and the 150s), was that internal pace awareness or technology? Or a mix?!

ECOLII

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Perfect splits on the 5k (and the 150s), was that internal pace awareness or technology? Or a mix?!

All done on track so it was relatively easy to track the splits for the tempo but to be honest used a simple stop watch and just had an idea of what each k split would be for 17.30 and just checked where I was in comparison when I went by rather than actually chasing the splits.

With the 150s it was more a case of focusing on running relaxed while running hard if that makes sense, the old mantra of "train, don't strain"

ECOLII

Tuesday AM 9.5 miles (7.10 approx)

Garmin went walkabouts so I just ran off the watch but met up with tRR for this one just a handy enough one, calves a little stiff from yesterday but nothing drastic ended up curbing the pace a little also, felt generally not too bad at all on this one

ECOLII

Tuesday PM GYM

1st time back in a long while and something I have been reluctantly putting off since my gym membership expired back in November. Mixed in low intensity plyometrics with the weights and ended up a decent session

3 x 8 1/2 squats
6 x 10m high knees over drills hurdles
3 x 8 lat pulldowns
6 x 10m lateral high knees (both sides) over drill hurdles
3 x 8 Bulgarian squats (each leg)
6 x 10m bunny hops over drill hurdles
3 x 8 unweighted pistol squats from incline step
6 x 10m single leg hops over drill hurdles (each leg)
3 x 8 deadlifts

Wednesday AM 10 miles (7.09 min pace)

Body really didn't like me today as the DOMS in the glutes was horrific, eased into the run and was cruising down to Sean Moore park with dublinrunner but tended to fade a little in the late stages of the run

Oregano_State

Good stuff. That's a handy pace you did the ten miler at with DOMS taken into account.

ECOLII

Oregano_State wrote: »

Good stuff. That's a handy pace you did the ten miler at with DOMS taken into account.

Was all in the glutes so once I got going it wasn't too bad plus the company helped as I always tend to run a little faster with company.

ECOLII

Wednesday PM flexibility work and foam rolling

Thursday OFF

Woke up and the body still in ribbons from the DL's on Tuesday so I said I would play it save and push back session till after work for extra recovery, only problem was ended up getting out of work late and was starving so by the time I was dressed to head out for session it was near 2am, looked at myself in the mirror and thought "your not this mad", sense won over and jumped into bed instead

Friday AM 4 miles easy (7.14 min pace)
Friday PM

2 miles easy,
1 mile jog bend/stride straights,
600, 200, 400, 200, 500 w/ 3 min rec
2 miles easy

Splits: 1.44, 29.4, 68, 29.8, 1.25

Hamstrings still a touch delicate today but none the less I wanted to get this session done and said to myself that I would just play it by ear and see how it went.

Few strides and felt a little better (i.e hamstrings felt like they could take a bit of intensity without snapping ) had an issue with the fact that the back light on the watch is muck and on these late night sessions there is only one place where it is visible as a result of near by street lights, the 400 mark, so I was effectively running these blind and just going off effort.
Started the 600 and I felt like muscles were near cramp from the get go so I kept the effort controlled and just below "cramp threshold" wind up the home straight pretty crap and just dug in, saw 68 on the watch which was ideal however the last 200 hurt and finish in 1.44, very happy with that split all things considered I had said to myself a sub 1.45 would be best case scenario for the night.
200 felt great though had wind on back so was a little quicker as a result again kept in control and couldn't really push for fear of cramp.
400 and I was hurting as I came around the bend at 300 and the wind really knocked me for sevens up the homes stretch, thankfully though the 200 after again was a more enjoyable affair.
Last 500 and for the first half I felt okay, started to hurt a little with the wind then and the last 100m probably resembled Forest Gump breaking free from his leg brace my form was that bad but got through it bang on split. Came across the line and was dry wretching which brought me back to my college days; 1am on a sat wretching with the sound of Flashdance Maniac ringing in my ears from the MP3 (for all you agists yes it is before my time but the disco's we went to had retro nights :P)

All in all I would rank this session pretty highly for the simple reason that despite the wind, threat of cramp, running pace blind I managed to pretty much hit ideal splits while being relatively in control, even though the recoveries were generous has me confident for what I can do when completely fresh

Hannibal Smith

ECOLII wrote: »

. Came across the line and was dry wretching which brought me back to my college days; 1am on a sat wretching with the sound of Flashdance Maniac ringing in my ears from the MP3 (for all you agists yes it is before my time but the disco's we went to had retro nights :P)

It was probably all that cheese in your ears . (Unless it was Mark Kavanaghs version)

ECOLII

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

It was probably all that cheese in your ears . (Unless it was Mark Kavanaghs version)

Hell's to the no. Scientifically proven that cheesy music makes you run faster:p

My running MP3 is quite "eclectic" mix ranging from 80s Cheese to Dubstep and everything in between

Hannibal Smith

ECOLII wrote: »

Hell's to the no. Scientifically proven that cheesy music makes you run faster:p

My running MP3 is quite "eclectic" mix ranging from 80s Cheese to Dubstep and everything in between

Lol...does a song ever come on and you think...jees I hope no one else can here this?

pconn062

Well there goes any thoughts I had of tagging onto you next weekend! :eek: