Discussion to ensure Bertie Ahern never becomes President of the Republic of Ireland

paddyland

ninty9er wrote: »

In any case. The President is essentially the Irish Ambassador to everywhere. Bertie, for all that can be said about him, is very well received internationally and voting for someone else for the sake of it, whatever your views on his actions up to now, wouldn't necessarily be in the best interests of Ireland.

I know you promote FF at every opportunity, and that's your prerogative.

But I really can't believe this statement. This is the man who has done more to destroy your beloved party than anyone else. Is this a wind-up?

If we are going to put a crook in our most prestigious position in the country, we might as well pull the blinds and close the country.

The best interests of Ireland? The best interests would be for Bertie to run for president, and have the media tear him asunder in the attempt. It's time he had his place in the history books.

As the benchmark of the lowest depths to which cronyism and corruption sunk in this country.

ninty9er

Whatever you or I think of him, he's a highly regarded statesman on the international circuit. There's no strings he could pull as President that could bring him personal gain.

Personally, I wouldn't choose him over Crowley for the nomination, but if he got it, he'd be better than Gerry Adams.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

Whatever you or I think of him, he's a highly regarded statesman on the international circuit. There's no strings he could pull as President that could bring him personal gain.

Personally, I wouldn't choose him over Crowley for the nomination, but if he got it, he'd be better than Gerry Adams.

Grand Ayatollah Khomeini would be more suitable for the Irish Presidency then Gerry Adams

The "high thoughts" of him on the international circuit have been ajusted since the failure of the Lisbon Treaty. Europe is not impervious to what was going on in the run up to the treaty, and it was Bertie's fault that FF could not get working on their campaign until the 11th hout. I know this, because I deal with European Politcs, and I have heard the attitudes of the other Member States towards our rejection.

paddyland

Gerry Adams or Bertie Ahern? Now there's a pip hard to swallow! I would really struggle with that one, I hold one in as low regard as the other. Do you know, I think I would slightly lean towards Adams! I really resent Ahern that much. He stood back and allowed this country to be plundered. Adams at least seems to have some vision of the country, however misguided. Ahern only ever had a vision of the FF pig trough.

As regards Europe, Bertie's snivelling behaviour in the tribunal, occurring just at the most inopportune moment, probably did more to wreck the Lisbon campaign than even Ganley. He has no friends in Europe.

Perhaps George W. Bush saw something in him, both men who understood a wink speaks a thousand words...

ninty9er

Het-Field wrote: »

Grand Ayatollah Khomeini would be more suitable for the Irish Presidency then Gerry Adams

The "high thoughts" of him on the international circuit have been ajusted since the failure of the Lisbon Treaty. Europe is not impervious to what was going on in the run up to the treaty, and it was Bertie's fault that FF could not get working on their campaign until the 11th hout. I know this, because I deal with European Politcs, and I have heard the attitudes of the other Member States towards our rejection.

There's a world outside Europe. And there's a political shif happening in Europe also. There are quite a few oppositions gaining in popularity that were anti Lisbon, particularly in the east and also our neighbours. External (Sarkozy) interference was also cited by many as a reason for saying nay. Yet that idiot still thinks he's well respected here and has offered to come "help". He'd be of more help on Pluto than in Dublin for a Lisbon campaign.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

There's a world outside Europe. And there's a political shif happening in Europe also. There are quite a few oppositions gaining in popularity that were anti Lisbon, particularly in the east and also our neighbours. External (Sarkozy) interference was also cited by many as a reason for saying nay. Yet that idiot still thinks he's well respected here and has offered to come "help". He'd be of more help on Pluto than in Dublin for a Lisbon campaign.

Im using Europe as an example.

TBH I dont really care how Bertie is considered abroad. He is inextricably linked to the current crisis, and has been arrogant in the face of trying the shirk responsibility.

However, im simply speaking from a post Lisbon Vote perspective. I have attended enough European and International political events to know the attitude with which our decision is held.

Bertie is not a suitable individual to be president. His fairy stories, his ego, and his wrong decision have dragged this country into the ****s. Was Jack Lynch ever considered capable for Presidency after the 1977 Govt ? Was Haughey, meglomaniac and all, ever deemed worthy of the office ? Bertie combines the worst attributes of both those leaders. His decisions bankrupted a nation, yet like Haughey his personal dealings are sketchy at best. He is not worthy of any further office.

ninty9er

I would rather a technocrat become President, but I'm playing devil's advocate on the Bertie front.

Every nation thinks the worst of its own politicians.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

Every nation thinks the worst of its own politicians.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, ninty9er, but that's the type of thinking that has FF where it is today.....assuming that as the default position.

"It's not our fault; we're politicians....they're bound to think the worst of us".

The fact is that people "think the worst of [their] own politicians" because of their actions.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't mean to be disrespectful, ninty9er, but that's the type of thinking that has FF where it is today.....assuming that as the default position.

"It's not our fault; we're politicians....they're bound to think the worst of us".

The fact is that people "think the worst of [their] own politicians" because of their actions.

To a certain extent (Bertie, Haughey, Lawlor and Lowry being prime examples) their own actions cause it, however, unpopular decisions are the main one.

Citizens often think better of other nations' politicians as their actions have no bearing on the individual.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

To a certain extent (Bertie, Haughey, Lawlor and Lowry being prime examples) their own actions cause it, however, unpopular decisions are the main one.

Citizens often think better of other nations' politicians as their actions have no bearing on the individual.

Dont feed us that line about "unpopular decisions". Do you realise that proper corrective measures willl be far harsher then anything Cowen and his ilk have done before. What has been done up to now have been weak, and half cocked. Most measures are based on Middle Income taxation, and a further distruction of our competitive edge, in a ham fisted address to our problems. Wait until front line services get hit, wait until the public sector is culled in a fell swoop. Wait until bus routes are cut, minimum wage is ajusted, social welfare is cut. This will not be done out of spite, but of necessity. That will be unpopular. But at least it would be clear that FF will be willing to pay an electoral price to get the country working again. Ireland is virtually bankrupt. We have a huge public pay debt, the liabilities for NAMA, and Anglo Irish Bank. Just wait and see the December budget.

In the Locals and the Europeans, the people didnt punish FF on the back of "unpopular deciisions". Four years (particularly the last two) of sheer incompetenct, arrogance, and poor governance has led the Irish people to despair. Im quite a fan of FF. But im entitled to voice my concern at the vaccum which exists in this current crop. I was on the doorsteps. people are angry at the Government, and Cowen/Coughaln etc for more then just the pension levy. Our crisis has been exacerbated by the deference to the property sector. We say the mad tax cuts that Bertie and Biffo gave to this industry, while ignoring industries which could have copperfastened our future. People understand, know and recognise this. Dont try and second guess the public. Thats just more of the arrogance.

JonathanAnon

I cant see Bertie running for it considering what happen to Ahern dynasty vote in the last elections. But then again, maybe he is not getting enough with his 120k job and 160k pension. He could still claim him pension while getting the president's salary couldnt he?

We do not need a president. Presently it's just a soap box for a previoulsy well connected person (usually a left wing) to make very politically correct statements every time there's a tragedy somewhere, and get paid exceedingly for it. But as with everything in this country, the population can see the job is hugely overpaid, but the position will continue to be paid the same. *apathy*

Liam Byrne

Het-Field wrote: »

Dont feed us that line about "unpopular decisions".

+1,000

Het-Field wrote: »

In the Locals and the Europeans, the people didnt punish FF on the back of "unpopular deciisions". Four years (particularly the last two) of sheer incompetenct, arrogance, and poor governance has led the Irish people to despair.

+1,000,000,000

Het-Field wrote: »

Im quite a fan of FF. But im entitled to voice my concern at the vaccum which exists in this current crop. I was on the doorsteps. people are angry at the Government, and Cowen/Coughaln etc for more then just the pension levy. Our crisis has been exacerbated by the deference to the property sector. We say the mad tax cuts that Bertie and Biffo gave to this industry, while ignoring industries which could have copperfastened our future. People understand, know and recognise this. Dont try and second guess the public. Thats just more of the arrogance.

And FINALLY .......while I definitely don't have the same viewpoint as Het-Field re being a fan of FF (they scuttled that years ago), I have to say a MASSIVE thank you to him/her in restoring at least some of my faith....... finally, someone in FF who isn't towing the bull**** party line.

Thanks, Het-Field......maybe there's hope and a light at the end of the tunnel yet......

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

however, unpopular decisions are the main one.

Depends on what unpopular decisions you're referring to.....

The ones that they claim they "have to make" now ? Then frankly - that's bull****.

The ones where they chose to ignore Aer Lingus v Shannon, privatise eircom other key infrastructure without any service-level or investment guarantees, sign away Tara, give themselves pay rises and bonuses, appoint their buddies to top positions and unnecessary quangos, committees, investigations and other stalling mechanisms, overlook corruption, waste money on ego projects, avoid looking for value for money, screw public services in rural areas, allow satellite planning on supposed ring roads, tax transport without providing viable public alternatives or work-near-home options, etc....?

For THOSE you might be right. Those were unpopular and wrong. And THOSE are the ones we - quite rightly - judged them on. :mad:

Het-Field

Liam Byrne wrote: »

+1,000



+1,000,000,000



And FINALLY .......while I definitely don't have the same viewpoint as Het-Field re being a fan of FF (they scuttled that years ago), I have to say a MASSIVE thank you to him/her in restoring at least some of my faith....... finally, someone in FF who isn't towing the bull**** party line.

Thanks, Het-Field......maybe there's hope and a light at the end of the tunnel yet......

Thanks for the endorsement Liam ! But im not FF (anymore), iv been active in the PDs for several years, and left FF in 2005. Im just somebody who would have a balanced view vis-a-vis FF, and have voted for them in the past. However, i recognise the situation, and I know it reflects the views of some of my FFer friends. However, that will be of little benefit until the higher ups take a similar viewpoint.

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

Whatever you or I think of him, he's a highly regarded statesman on the international circuit. There's no strings he could pull as President that could bring him personal gain.

Personally, I wouldn't choose him over Crowley for the nomination, but if he got it, he'd be better than Gerry Adams.

Maybe he couldn't pull strings but I resent having to pay his pension, never mind another fat state salary to a coniving little sh** whose legacy will be felt by our kids and probably on into the next generation.

ninty9er wrote: »

I would rather a technocrat become President, but I'm playing devil's advocate on the Bertie front.

Every nation thinks the worst of its own politicians.

FFS. Devils advocate, yeah right :rolleyes:

ninty9er wrote: »

To a certain extent (Bertie, Haughey, Lawlor and Lowry being prime examples) their own actions cause it, however, unpopular decisions are the main one.

Citizens often think better of other nations' politicians as their actions have no bearing on the individual.

Unpopular decisions my ar**.
Obviously you are as deluded as the ones at the top of ff who believe they are all making the tough choices for our benefit.
Self righteous sh**e and complete arrogance.
Have they or you ever thought why these tough decisions have to made ?
Probably not :rolleyes:

The thing that links all the names above is unethical behaviour, corruption, feathering their own and their friends nests at the expense of the state i.e. the taxpayer.

PS you forgot that other fine upstanding man of Irish politics Ray Burke.
The above list looks kinda bare without his name.
Hell you could call them "The inFamous Five".

An Ri rua

Excellent discussion! Delighted with the input to my original post.

Some longstanding shots were waiting to be be fired, I can see!!

oscarBravo

An Ri rua wrote: »

I wish to start a serious DISCUSSION.

An Ri rua wrote: »

Excellent discussion! Delighted with the input to my original post.

Considering your opening post, I would have expected a lot more input to the DISCUSSION from you.

I am genuinely staggered.

The Presidency is a retirement home with almost no authority or power whatsoever. Any prestige people may mistakenly think it has comes from the work of Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese, the office in and of itself is a trumped up trade mission at this stage. Other than some technical duties the only real power of the office comes under Article 26 of the Constitution.

Let Ahern have the office but make sure Fine Gael are in Government so he can't say or do anything without prior clearance from the Taoiseach and cabinet. That'd be a laugh.

bernardo mac

You are right Kayroo it'd be a laugh alright and an absolute national embarrassment.Besides being conniving and corrupt,he is incompetent and a dreadfully poor public speaker.Why not give the office to the suave smoothie and fellow Me Feiner, Sean Fitzpatrick? Sinn Feiner Gerry would be a far superior choice!:rolleyes:

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

Self righteous sh**e and complete arrogance.

No, just governing the country.

And many thought Ahern did it well. Judging by his own election results. And weren't that shocked by the 'politician might be lying, might have enriched himself' news. Course recent results for his family members suggests that he may also be getting blame as much as he got praise during the good times, but if he is entitled to run he is entitled to run and all that can be done is people need not vote for him if they want to express their rage. I find having Martin Ferris an elected representative from my county is sick and twisted, as he is a convicted terrorist, but not a whole lot I can do about it.

bernardo mac

I really doubt he'll run,has a right to do so,but the not so hush word is,he is an embarrassment to many FFs and to a fair number of Ireland's citizens

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

No, just governing the country.

And many thought Ahern did it well. Judging by his own election results. And weren't that shocked by the 'politician might be lying, might have enriched himself' news. Course recent results for his family members suggests that he may also be getting blame as much as he got praise during the good times, but if he is entitled to run he is entitled to run and all that can be done is people need not vote for him if they want to express their rage. I find having Martin Ferris an elected representative from my county is sick and twisted, as he is a convicted terrorist, but not a whole lot I can do about it.

Governing the country into the ground would be more apt :rolleyes:
Oh yes many thought he did it well, but remember some of us didn't :rolleyes:
If you want I can drag up our posts on the matter ?

Ah but sure you have jackie healy ray independent fianna fail and O'Donghue in your neck of the woods.

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

Oh yes many thought he did it well, but remember some of us didn't :rolleyes:

No need for the rolleyes, I was aware that he didn't get every single vote and he wasn't for everyone.

The point I was making is that there shouldn't be some bar to him running for President. This is a democracy, as long as he qualifies under the Constitution and legislation I'm not sure why the need for a thread like this. Just don't vote for him.

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

The point I was making is that there shouldn't be some bar to him running for President.

Er, the fact that he's under investigation for corruption ?

Yes, innocent until proven guilty, but would you hire somebody who was under investigation ?

If and when the tribunals come to their conclusion, and he's found to be beyond reproach, then maybe......although I still find it unbelievable that anyone would obstruct the tribunal that they helped set up so much and need to change their story 5 times as to how they got the money.

Also - as I've said before - since he's explicitly stated that he gave people jobs "because they were my friends" - he IS guilty of neoptism, which is a form of corruption, whatever about the cash.

Anyone who considers voting for him as President and representative of our country should be exiled.

jimmmy

Deleted User wrote: »

The Presidency is a retirement home with almost no authority or power whatsoever.

Well said. Yet it is a retirement hiome that is costing the country millions per year. There are ex presidents on pensions / packages which cost hundreds of thousands. We are the laughing stock of the world with our teeshock paid more than Obama or the president / prime minister of the France , Germany, UK, Japan etc Our president only adds to the farce, and the national borrowing / debt of our tiny little country. Who cares who is President - quarter the pay + perks.

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Anyone who considers voting for him as President and representative of our country should be exiled.

That wouled be a measured and proportional response. Can they be beaten first? It happens in all the good places like Haiti and North Korea?

jimmmy wrote: »

We are the laughing stock of the world

I suspect the world has enough troubles of their own and really doesn't know or care how much the leader of Ireland gets paid tbh. I bet, for example, Gordon Brown's woes are dominating the English media for starters.

jimmmy

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect the world has enough troubles of their own and really doesn't know or care how much the leader of Ireland gets paid tbh.

When overseas people look at the economy of Ireland I am sorry to say that yes, we are the laughing stock of the world with our teeshock paid more than Obama or the president / prime minister of the France , Germany, UK, Japan etc Our president only adds to the farce, and the national borrowing / debt of our tiny little country. As a foreign industrialist said to me once, this country reminds him of a third world country, with the corruption , well off govt elite etc etc.

jimmmy

jimmmy wrote: »

When overseas people look at the economy of Ireland I am sorry to say that yes, we are the laughing stock of the world

I note you have narrowed it down from being the laughing stock of the world, to the laughing stock of that part of the world that examines the Irish economy. I still say the people of Iceland and the US and Britain and North Korea and Burkina Faso etc. etc. aren't laughing, but we'll agree to differ

jimmmy wrote: »

As a foreign industrialist said to me once, this country reminds him of a third world country, with the corruption , well off govt elite etc etc.

As a foreign industrialist said to me once 'Ireland, what a great country, I love it'.

Mixed reviews there, we'll take it that it's half way between those extremes.

jimmmy

Deleted User wrote: »

I note you have narrowed it down from being the laughing stock of the world, to the laughing stock of that part of the world that examines the Irish economy.

Rubbish. What I referred to was people from overseas who "look at the Irish economy. " Do you seriously not think we are the laughing stock of the world with our teeshock paid more than Obama or the president / prime minister of the France , Germany, UK, Japan etc ????????? and our president only adding to the farce ?

cfcj

Can I suggest Seamus Heaney, someone non political, intelligent and articulate who I believe will represent the country and has a great international standing. I know he is 70 but this is the type of individual I would prefer get the job.

oscarBravo

jimmmy, this isn't a public sector pay thread.

jimmmy

jimmmy wrote: »

Do you seriously not think we are the laughing stock of the world with our teeshock paid more than Obama or the president / prime minister of the France , Germany, UK, Japan etc ????????? and our president only adding to the farce ?

To be honest I don't think they give two hoots about Ireland, the economy, the rates of pay etc. Or they care as much as I care about the take home pay of, say, the Danish leader.

Incidentally, even though for some bizarre reason you insist on referring to 'teeshock' - presumably to add to the humour quotient apparently felt by the rest of the world/your industrialist friend - we are talking about our Taoiseach, are we?

Overature

lets form an uncontrollable riot and burn down government buildings

jimmmy

jimmmy wrote: »

Well said. Yet it is a retirement hiome that is costing the country millions per year. There are ex presidents on pensions / packages which cost hundreds of thousands. We are the laughing stock of the world with our teeshock paid more than Obama or the president / prime minister of the France , Germany, UK, Japan etc Our president only adds to the farce, and the national borrowing / debt of our tiny little country. Who cares who is President - quarter the pay + perks.

Just do what Dev did to the Lord Lieutenant (previous tenant of the Aras). Reduce the office to one of almost no importance and let a postman in Rathmines (I think, not totally sure where he was from) be the President and let him sign bills when needs be.

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

That wouled be a measured and proportional response. Can they be beaten first? It happens in all the good places like Haiti and North Korea?

I was exaggerating, obviously.....

But speaking of Haiti and North Korea, are those two of the countries where corruption is rife and where the leader of the country does whatever he damn-well likes regardless of the public's rights and needs, and where he's unaccountable and never brought to task for it, and doesn't believe that he should be ?

Sounds about right, so.

Geldof & Co had it spot on in the 70's; "Banana Republic" is as true today as it was back then. :rolleyes:

paddy 1916

he is no f**king crook. i fully support him. dont judge those, unless u have walked in there feet!!!!!

old boy

paddy 1916 wrote: »

he is no f**king crook. i fully support him. dont judge those, unless u have walked in there feet!!!!!

naw i would not walk on his feet, just stamp my heel down firmly on his instep.

Het-Field

paddy 1916 wrote: »

he is no f**king crook. i fully support him. dont judge those, unless u have walked in there feet!!!!!

What makes you so cocksure as to his innocence ?

Do you support his decision to move from sustainable productivity to a property bubble to boost his own legacy ?

jimmmy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Geldof & Co had it spot on in the 70's; "Banana Republic" is as true today as it was back then. :rolleyes:

Great song, I remember it well. Its probably truer now than ever ; back then our teeshock - unlike now - was probably not paid more than the US president or the president / prime minister of the France , Germany, UK, Japan etc.... our overpaid president only adds to the farce. Banana republic indeed with our govt paying themselves, and their retired colleagues, ( with borrowed money ) more than the leaders of even the G7 nations....and everything filtering down likewise

oscarBravo

Allow me to rephrase and clarify my earlier point.

jimmmy, this isn't a public sector pay thread.

I hope that's clearer.

destroyer

paddy 1916 wrote: »

he is no f**king crook. i fully support him. dont judge those, unless u have walked in there feet!!!!!

Amazing, there are still some sheep left.

Yes he is a crook, and a multi currency (Punts, Sterling, Dollar, Euro) one at that.

oscarBravo

OK, I'm going to lay down a marker here.

There are to be no more accusations of criminality against public figures who have not been convicted of said crimes.

That means that you're not allowed to call Bertie Ahern a crook, and you're not allowed to describe him as corrupt. No exceptions; no excuses.

Back on topic.

Rebelheart

paddy 1916 wrote: »

he is no f**king crook. i fully support him. dont judge those, unless u have walked in there feet!!!!!

Are you for real? The man is corrupt. That is a full stop, and it is also an enormous understatement.

I canvassed for Fianna Fáil all my childhood and I'd never vote for the smug anglocentric seoinín types that compose Fine Gael. But a crook is a crook in any language.

Rebelheart

Do any of you people supporting this bastard realise how long we are all going to work to pay off his policies since 2001?

We are so f ucked, we really are. Due to his policies the fundamentals of this economy are not sound, policies which were indubitably aimed at winning elections rather than securing the genuine wealth which we did produce up until 2001.

Wake up about what this man is responsible for. Please. Thank you.

cfcj

I agree with you rebelheart, and I wouldn't ever want Bertie Ahern as President. I even agree with your comments about Fine Gael. I just wondered what happened in 2001? There was still an increasing trade surplus until 2003. Just wonder what specific policies do you think have caused this?

oscarBravo

Rebelheart banned for a month.

jmayo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Er, the fact that he's under investigation for corruption ?

Yes, innocent until proven guilty, but would you hire somebody who was under investigation ?
...

But in FF eyes, and sadly many of our voters eyes, you are not guilty until every possible appeal has been examined.
Mr Stroke Fahy or Bev Flynn two examples. :rolleyes:

Deleted User wrote: »

No need for the rolleyes, I was aware that he didn't get every single vote and he wasn't for everyone.

The point I was making is that there shouldn't be some bar to him running for President. This is a democracy, as long as he qualifies under the Constitution and legislation I'm not sure why the need for a thread like this. Just don't vote for him.

What exactly do you have do to be persona non grata in ff ?
How long was it before Ray or Liam finally got the chop.

As regards not being allowed to run for public office, why was Mr Fahy in Galway allowed run, seen as he was found guilty of theft and fraud by a jury ?

Obvious corruption and self engrandeaurment at the expense of the taxpayer doesn't count as a reason for not being allowed stand for public office in this tin pot country of ours :rolleyes:

Fighting Irish

I've no love for Bertie but he didn't pressure anyone into buying 400K 3 bed houses

transylman

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I've no love for Bertie but he didn't pressure anyone into buying 400K 3 bed houses

Maybe, but moronic comments like this in July 2006 didn't help.

In actual fact, the reason it's on the rise is because probably the boom times are getting even more boomer.

The governor of the central bank felt a little differently.

In relation to the housing market, while moderating through much of last year, the recent re-acceleration in house-price increases, well in excess of the increase in nominal incomes, is a concern and has increased the risk of a sharp correction in the market.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/quotes-of-the-week-132596.html

wasper

An Ri rua wrote: »

Hello all,

I wish to start a serious DISCUSSION.

In the light of the ongoing revelations of the lack of care shown to Irish citizens by the previous FF government under Bertie Ahern, allowing a massive transfer of wealth from one generation to another via house prices and allowing a massive miscarriage of justice and unconstitutional non-reporting of criminal actions against children, in the case of the Ryan Report into institutional child abuse, I propose that it is only fair, just and proper that the sins of omission of Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach be punished by ensuring that he first and foremost does not get any chance to become President of Ireland, among other roles he chooses to pursue.

I propose we register our anger here in a DISCUSSION. Rather than merely just signing books of condolence with the victims. Of course we feel for them. of course! Let's do more though! As collective victims of countless 'mistakes', let's strike back at these committers of 'sins of omission'. Brian Cowen, Michael Woods, the Cardinals etc etc.

When they raise their heads for noble purposes, let's witch-hunt them until they have paid their dues to the rest of society.

I for one, register my disgust with the so-called leaders of our society and declare that Bertie Ahern is not fit to be President of this country, unlike Mary Robinson who proved herself to be a citizen worth emulating.

Any support for my side of the DISCUSSION? All views welcome. Note that this is an open DISCUSSION, not a petition. Thanks admin for advising re rules. I assume that this format is now 100% reflective of the parameters.

I wouldnt be surprised, there are enough thick idiots who will vote for him, starting with Eaoin Harris.