cant think of a title, just read

markopantelic · 13-06-2009 12:19am #1

please move if this is in wrong place but i feel we as humans should be able to go without restriction to wherever we want on the planet, i mean who decides where a boarder ends and all that crap, i know on this island we had it but also it was on a grander scale on european mainland where like you lived on the boarder of germany yet you weren't allowed freely go to it. i feel the idea of the nation should be banished, the EU is a good start for europe but eventually it should expand and include all nations. your views.

this is not to say i think national or city identity(i'd be more city orientated) should be abandoned but just i think we need to see ourselves as citizens of the world first

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 12:28am

well i am human, irish and european....

irish people can pretty much go to as many countries freely as any other nationality

Red Hand · 13-06-2009 12:28am

I agree. States are so artificial, and involve huge amounts of waste, both material or human.

Maybe you'd be interested in "A Theory of Power" by Jeff Vail. Google it, it's a free online book, around 50 pages long.

AlekSmart · 13-06-2009 12:56am

Posted by O Coonasa back in the day when the "Pamela Izevbekhai-should she be deported" thread was live.......

Found by who exactly? I thought you were a libertarian. I should be able go where I please on my planet

Is this the general thrust of Markopantelic`s policy...?

markopantelic · 13-06-2009 12:58am

lol.

conchubhar1 · 13-06-2009 12:59am

beside the ''my planet'' part im shocked i agree with o'coonassa on anything
first time for anything i spose

Sand · 13-06-2009 1:01am

States and nations are artificial creations, but dont forget they are created by humans. Humans who might reject your right to free passage.

The tribal mindset is quite strong in humanity genetic code - fear and hatred of the "outsider" is very much built in, with resulting inherent teamwork. This is a useful survival trait back in the bad old days. Its now a bit of a throwback, but its still sitting there in our genetic code. Dont underestimate it.

GSF · 13-06-2009 8:30am

Before states you still had to negotiate safe passage through areas controlled by the local tribe or whatever. So at least visas & pasports formalises the experience & makes it less likely a mob will chase you out of town

Macha · 13-06-2009 10:49am

Sand wrote: »

States and nations are artificial creations, but dont forget they are created by humans. Humans who might reject your right to free passage.

Definitely. The idea of a nation-state as a fundamental social movement really arose in the 1800s and the rise of nationalism and nation-buildling through the 19th century.

Of course there were kingdoms, city states and empires before that but I think there were some fundamental differences with today's nation-states.

BroomBurner · 13-06-2009 7:07pm

Who decides on borders? Whoever wins the war.

squonk · 15-06-2009 9:54am

markopantelic wrote: »

please move if this is in wrong place but i feel we as humans should be able to go without restriction to wherever we want on the planet, i mean who decides where a boarder ends and all that crap, i know on this island we had it but also it was on a grander scale on european mainland where like you lived on the boarder of germany yet you weren't allowed freely go to it. i feel the idea of the nation should be banished, the EU is a good start for europe but eventually it should expand and include all nations. your views.

this is not to say i think national or city identity(i'd be more city orientated) should be abandoned but just i think we need to see ourselves as citizens of the world first

I thought this got knocked ont he head in the Pamela thread. There will always be borders, both for security and ecconomic reasons. Even on the micro scale, taking for example your house, would you wish that I could wander in to your place any time I felt like it, make myself a cup of tea and then wander off to fall asleep in the nearest bedroom? Assuming I'm a decent guy and even if you did, would you want the local scumbag or drug addict doing the same? Country borders operate on the same principal, we let in our friends or people our friends vouch for (passports and treaties) and try to keep out the local scumbags and people we don't know. (visas). You have a nice idea but it's based on the assumption that you're a fundmanetally decent person who wants to enrich the places you go to (which I'm sure is true) but there are many out there who would do the opposite.

djpbarry · 15-06-2009 10:16am

squonk wrote: »

You have a nice idea but it's based on the assumption that you're a fundmanetally decent person who wants to enrich the places you go to...

Actually I think it's based on the assumption that the vast majority of people are fundamentally decent and (let's be honest) want to enrich themselves, which is, by extension, (usually) good for the host country.

junder · 15-06-2009 2:06pm

taconnol wrote: »

Definitely. The idea of a nation-state as a fundamental social movement really arose in the 1800s and the rise of nationalism and nation-buildling through the 19th century.

Of course there were kingdoms, city states and empires before that but I think there were some fundamental differences with today's nation-states.

Actully the first nationstate to come to existance was England back in 1300. As for being able to move were you like, all very fine liberal and PC when you talk about people from poorer countrys moving to richer countrys, all sides nice and you can pat yourself on the back for being so openminded, but what is if its the other way. Should i have the right to just move over to a pooer country build my nice big house (cause i am a rich westener and can afford it) out bid the locals and buy up land (cause i am a rich westener and can afford it). What if i want to move to some idilic unspoilt island.

djpbarry · 15-06-2009 3:27pm

junder wrote: »

Should i have the right to just move over to a pooer country build my nice big house (cause i am a rich westener and can afford it) out bid the locals and buy up land (cause i am a rich westener and can afford it).

That's up to the "poor country" in question to decide. If your nice big house meets the planning regulations then I don't see the problem (assuming you haven't bribed the planning authority).

junder · 15-06-2009 4:26pm

djpbarry wrote: »

That's up to the "poor country" in question to decide. If your nice big house meets the planning regulations then I don't see the problem (assuming you haven't bribed the planning authority).

the whole gist of his question is that we should not need to ask permission we should just be allowed to move we were liked, if there are no borders then there are no countrys and therefore nobody to give me permission to stay or not

Dannyboy83 · 15-06-2009 4:30pm

No, we'd all be out of a job.
The Indians would take over the country in a week.

Any job an Irish person does, you could hire 5 Indians for the same money.

djpbarry · 15-06-2009 5:03pm

junder wrote: »

the whole gist of his question is that we should not need to ask permission we should just be allowed to move we were liked, if there are no borders then there are no countrys and therefore nobody to give me permission to stay or not

I'm not sure why you've made the leap from "no borders" to "no authorities".

fly_agaric · 15-06-2009 8:02pm

markopantelic wrote:

please move if this is in wrong place but i feel we as humans should be able to go without restriction to wherever we want on the planet, i mean who decides where a boarder ends and all that crap

Not getting personal (well I am, sort of) but I have a vague memory from lurking on this website that you are Israeli??

If so - that makes what you wrote really, really funny!:pac: Even if I'm wrong it's funny anyway! We should be able to live in peace, we should not suffer, we should live forever, from each according to his abilities - to each according to his needs etc - all pipe dreams!

junder · 15-06-2009 8:44pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not sure why you've made the leap from "no borders" to "no authorities".

if you have no borders how can you have authorities, how can you tell when one on juristican ends and another begins?

zing zong · 15-06-2009 9:06pm

markopantelic wrote: »

please move if this is in wrong place but i feel we as humans should be able to go without restriction to wherever we want on the planet, i mean who decides where a boarder ends and all that crap, i know on this island we had it but also it was on a grander scale on european mainland where like you lived on the boarder of germany yet you weren't allowed freely go to it. i feel the idea of the nation should be banished, the EU is a good start for europe but eventually it should expand and include all nations. your views.

this is not to say i think national or city identity(i'd be more city orientated) should be abandoned but just i think we need to see ourselves as citizens of the world first

while i think everyone feels, in some sense, what your saying would be great, in reality, at least now and the foreseeable future, it cant happen.

regarding travel, the majority of the world have no issue going from nation to nation, bar some exceptions

but if you mean to live, it isnt, nor should it be possible, for a long time, past our lifetimes id say. there is far too much to iron out (and thats putting it lightly)

and even after that, how to you govern a borderless planet?
1 goverment?:mad:

cant think of a title, just read

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