Does atheism matter?

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

Try it out and see. Become aware of just how often the mind is at work. Being aware of it is the first step.



All the great teachers speak of the same thing. Unfortunately organised religion has screwed all that up.



I'm not saying it's different or the same.
Inner peace and heaven on earth is available to everyone right here right now. Just try and stop thinking, become aware that you are not your mind. Watch your thoughts. Watch the ego in its need to assert itself and be right and have strong opinions. Become aware of how it constantly judges and needs and analyses and created emotions. Emotion actually means disturbance.

The hell jesus spoke of was this the hell that almost everyone on earth endures on a daily basis, to some degree. How many have inner peace? A life free from mind created problems. For every up there is a down.

It's possible to live in heaven on earth. Free of mind and emotion and have complete acceptance and inner peace.

Just be aware of your mind. Don't judge yourself for having the thoughts. Just accept they are there. You are not your mind.

1. Life as we know it ultimately is or leads to suffering/uneasiness in one way or another.
2. Suffering is caused by craving or attachments to worldly pleasures of all kinds. This is often expressed as a deluded clinging to a certain sense of existence, to selfhood, or to the things or phenomena that we consider the cause of happiness or unhappiness.
3. Suffering ends when craving ends, when one is freed from desire. This is achieved by eliminating all delusion, thereby reaching a liberated state of Enlightenment.
4. Reaching this liberated state is achieved by following the path laid out by the Buddha.

Sound familiar?


What exactly do you mean? What is heaven on earth, what does it achieve and what does it have to do with whether I should accept unsubstantiated claims or not?

Sam Vimes

bayviewclose wrote: »

are we still talking about atheism here?

I.....don't know

CerebralCortex

togster wrote: »

But most people are run by there mind.

What are you run by? This is what makes people people. What is it you find so wrong with the mind and its thought processes?

togster wrote: »

Few people actually are aware of this.

Bullsh!t everyone is aware of their mind its central to who they are. Without the mind your just a mindless shell. I don't disagree though that a period of mindlessness would be an interesting trip where stresses of some of your thoughts wouldn't be there a physical being you wouldn't survive very long.

CerebralCortex

togster wrote: »

....You are not your mind.

Actually yes you are.

Sam Vimes

To quote the great philosopher Eric Cartman:

"It's all a load of tree hugging hippy crap"

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Sound familiar?

Yes it does Jesus was on about the same thing too.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

What exactly do you mean? What is heaven on earth, what does it achieve and what does it have to do with whether I should accept unsubstantiated claims or not?

Heaven on earth, is whatever you want it to be. You control your own destiny.

The key is understanding how the mind works and the eventual realisation that you are not your mind. Heaven on earth is a state of being (mind kicked in yet? you don't like the word "being"?)

You should not accpet anything that you don't want to.
But don't let the mind make a decision for you unless you are completely sure that you are it's master and commander.

I don't have a problem with atheism. It's just that the way of thinking often perforates every area of life. And the person becomes the way of thinking, "I am an atheist" or "i am a catholic".

In one way the person has an identity now. And everyone on this planet is searching to find it is what they are missing. To "find themselves" in a job or a holiday or a religion or a way of thinking. We all do it. All of us. We went to the bloody moon man.

togster

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Actually yes you are.

Actually no i'm not

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

Heaven on earth, is whatever you want it to be. You control your own destiny.

The key is understanding how the mind works and the eventual realisation that you are not your mind. Heaven on earth is a state of being (mind kicked in yet? you don't like the word "being"?)

The thing is that in my opinion if you don't think you are your mind then you don't understand how the mind works. Yes it's an extremely complicated organ with many levels that we don't yet understand but I don't think there is anything spiritual or other worldy there. We are just complicated machines. We can break away from our programming somewhat but not entirely.

togster wrote: »

You should not accpet anything that you don't want to.
But don't let the mind make a decision for you unless you are completely sure that you are it's master and commander.

What if something can be proven? Should you still not accept it if you don't want to?

togster

CerebralCortex wrote: »

What is it you find so wrong with the mind and its thought processes?

When i use it correctly, i have no problem!

OK for example. Are you ever anxious or on edge? Are you ever sad or lonely? Are you ever angry or revengeful? Are you ever wreckless with yourself or others?

ALL MIND CREATED STUFF. Now tell me there is nothing wrong with that.

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

When i use it correctly, i have no problem!

OK for example. Are you ever anxious or on edge? Are you ever sad or lonely? Are you ever angry or revengeful? Are you ever wreckless with yourself or others?

ALL MIND CREATED STUFF. Now tell me there is nothing wrong with that.

Every single thing that you will ever experience is mind created stuff. It's all a load of electrical impulses through neurons and synapses

When you meditate, it's just a different part of your mind coming out

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

We are just complicated machines. We can break away from our programming somewhat but not entirely.

I think it's sad that you think that but i can see the logic in it. I know that there is another way to be.

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Every single thing that you will ever experience is mind created stuff. It's all a load of electrical impulses through neurons and synapses

Exactly!! Its so simple

There is a way to live where the mind does not dictate to us.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

it's just a different part of your mind coming out

And maybe that part of our "mind" is our true self or our "soul" or our real intelligence.

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

I think it's sad that you think that but i can see the logic in it. I know that there is another way to be.

I know there's another way to be. Meditation has been shown to work and that's why it's used by so many different cultures. You can achieve peace and free yourself from emotion and the noise of thought and it can be a wonderful experience.

I just don't think that you become perfect when you do so or that it's "you" as opposed to your mind or any other higher concept. It's just another function of your mind

CerebralCortex

togster wrote: »

When i use it correctly, i have no problem!

OK for example. Are you ever anxious or on edge? Are you ever sad or lonely? Are you ever angry or revengeful? Are you ever wreckless with yourself or others?

ALL MIND CREATED STUFF. Now tell me there is nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong with that.

With respect to you being your mind, your response:

togster wrote: »

Actually no i'm not

Is quite clear to me.

CDfm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Am i the only one who thinks this sounds like Jesus wants us to be mindless zombies?

Not really - it means that a person may have to evalute the moral consequences of what they decide without reference to themselves. So its an external concept.

CDfm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I know there's another way to be. Meditation has been shown to work and that's why it's used by so many different cultures. You can achieve peace and free yourself from emotion and the noise of thought and it can be a wonderful experience.

I just don't think that you become perfect when you do so or that it's "you" as opposed to your mind or any other higher concept. It's just another function of your mind

Sam Vimes wrote: »

To quote the great philosopher Eric Cartman:

"It's all a load of tree hugging hippy crap"

:rolleyes:

So where are you getting your pseudo religious stuff from - meditation +philosophy = atheism

Sam Vimes

CDfm wrote: »

:rolleyes:

So where are you getting your pseudo religious stuff from - meditation +philosophy = atheism

I'm lost....

CDfm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'm lost....

What I am saying is that when you add meditation and philosopphy together you get somthing thats sort of religious.

It could be a gateway thing and who knows where it could lead :eek:

CDfm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

scratch that, I'll try again. That's a bit of a mess

The idea of an omnipotent being is extremely unlikely to me

A non omnipotent being to which different laws of a different universe apply is more likely but still very unlikely
. I know that humans have a tendency to anthropomorphise things

A non-intelligent process to which different natural laws apply seems to me to be the most likely or that they are the same laws and we don't understand them fully

The world religions are 99% certainly inventions of man

Sam - are you sure that you are not an agnostic?

Sam Vimes

CDfm wrote: »

Sam - are you sure that you are not an agnostic?

Nope, I'm what Mr. Dawkins calls a level 6 atheist

As I said to you the idea that all atheists think the universe popped out of nothing is a theist caricature of the position of atheists.

Level 6 is:
6. Very low probability [of god], but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

Sam Vimes

CDfm wrote: »

What I am saying is that when you add meditation and philosopphy together you get somthing thats sort of religious.

It could be a gateway thing and who knows where it could lead :eek:

There's plenty of secular philosophy and plenty of secular meditation too. Meditation is a function of the human mind and you don't have to believe in God to achieve it

CDfm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Nope, I'm what Mr. Dawkins calls a level 6 atheist

You wouldnt believe that fellah

As I said to you the idea that all atheists think the universe popped out of nothing is a theist caricature of the position of atheists.

And the options are

Level 6 is:
6. Very low probability [of god], but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

But Buddism is a religion and only an assumption.You have a doubt so how come you are an atheist?

Sam Vimes

CDfm wrote: »

But Buddism is a religion and only an assumption.You have a doubt so how come you are an atheist?

Buddhism is actually an atheist religion

and meditation is used by dozens of religions and by non-religious people. There's mountains of evidence supporting its existence, just not the spiritual aspects of it

And as I keep saying, the vast majority of atheists have doubt. The idea that all atheists are 100% sure god doesn't exist is only what religious people like to think so they can say we're irrational. It just seems very unlikely to me so I operate under the assumption that it's not there

togster

CerebralCortex wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with that.

With respect there is alot wrong with that.

CDfm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Buddhism is actually an atheist religion

and many of the faithful also follow ingineous religions and believe in rebirth/reincarnation. Mystic or what.

and meditation is used by dozens of religions and by non-religious people. There's mountains of evidence supporting its existence, just not the spiritual aspects of it

Keep telling yourself that

And as I keep saying, the vast majority of atheists have doubt. The idea that all atheists are 100% sure god doesn't exist is only what religious people like to think so they can say we're irrational. It just seems very unlikely to me so I operate under the assumption that it's not there

so does this make you one of the agnostic atheists who express these doubts?

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

just not the spiritual aspects of it

What are the spiritual aspects of it?

Zombrex

togster wrote: »

So you are suspicious of yourself?

You use your mind to be suspicious of your mind. How can you trust something if it is so flawed? :eek:

Now you are starting to get the importance of science ...

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

Its the opening words

It isn't the opening words. The opening words of the Bible have God creating the "heavens and the Earth". If you look at what the authors understood by the heavens that has very little relation to what we would know as the universe, and the Earth was formed billions of years after the formation of the universe.

The opening passage of the Bible is not referring to the Big Bang. It is referring to some imagined creation event.

CDfm wrote: »

Coincidence you say

And not particularly surprising coincidence. The authors had a 50/50 chance of picking a created universe over a non-created universe.

CDfm wrote: »

Do you think on probability that one religion would hit paydirt?

Thousands of religions would "hit paydirt", and thousands have.

CDfm wrote: »

I am just using it here to make the meaning clearer.

It doesn't make the meaning clearer, it makes it in fact meaningless. If you simply assign the term "God" to what ever we discover caused the Big Bang irrespective of what ever that turns out to be then the term "God" has no meaning at the moment, which a lot of religious people would object to.

CDfm wrote: »

Its more like saying whats the basis for your rejection.

Humans make stuff up.

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

Now you are starting to get the importance of science ...

or should that be epistemology

togster

Wicknight wrote: »

Now you are starting to get the importance of science ...

I already understand the importance of science.

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

The opening passage of the Bible is not referring to the Big Bang. It is referring to some imagined creation event.

so do you accept the big bang

It doesn't make the meaning clearer, it makes it in fact meaningless. If you simply assign the term "God" to what ever we discover caused the Big Bang irrespective of what ever that turns out to be then the term "God" has no meaning at the moment, which a lot of religious people would object to.

So your position is no Gods ever and you know this as in no levels - nada ,nyet,rien, nothing.

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Meditation has been shown to work and that's why it's used by so many different cultures. You can achieve peace and free yourself from emotion and the noise of thought and it can be a wonderful experience.

How has it been shown to work? How do you quantify inner peace? Where is the evidence it works? And what does it do?

Meditation is a practice not a way of being.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You can achieve peace and free yourself from emotion and the noise of thought and it can be a wonderful experience.

Have you experienced this?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's just another function of your mind

Perhaps, but have you evidence of that?

Sam Vimes

CDfm wrote: »

and many of the faithful also follow ingineous religions and believe in rebirth/reincarnation. Mystic or what.

They do indeed. It's atheistic in that it doesn't believe in any Gods. It still has lots of unsubstantiated claims like reincarnation.

CDfm wrote: »

Keep telling yourself that

Eh? Meditation has been amply shown to induce an altered mental state. There are disagreements on what that means, some saying it brings you closer to god and others just saying it relaxes you, but it definitely does something. It's even used in catholicism, reciting the rosary is a form of meditation. Are you saying that meditation doesn't exist?

CDfm wrote: »

so does this make you one of the agnostic atheists who express these doubts?

I wouldn't call myself an agnostic atheist, that would probably be a 5 on the scale in the thread I linked to earlier. I know that religious people like to dismiss Dawkins without quite knowing why and I'm sure he gets an awful time of it on the christianity forum but he actually has a lot of good things to say when you actually listen instead of dismissing him because it's him. Take a look at the scale because it explains it pretty well.

I can call myself an atheist without completely eliminating the possibility. I'm saying that I won't accept it until evidence is presented but a 7 on the scale says that God definitely doesn't exist and he 'knows' that no evidence will ever be presented to contradict that statement. If you look at the thread you'll see that the vast majority of the people on the forum are only a 6 and so is Dawkins.

togster wrote: »

What are the spiritual aspects of it?

Anything that suggests there's some higher meaning to it and it's not just a natural function of your mind

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

How has it been shown to work? How do you quantify inner peace? Where is the evidence it works? And what does it do?

Meditation is a practice not a way of being.

Have you experienced this?

I never said it was shown to bring inner peace, people differ and what exactly it is but something definitely happens. In its simplest form it distracts the conscious mind and brings a sense of calm. I don't know exactly what it does but it definitely does something.

You're the one telling us we should all do it. Why are you insisting I provide evidence that it exists

togster wrote: »

Perhaps, but have you evidence of that?

When I say it's a function of your mind I mean it's a natural phenomenon. It's a natural phenomenon right up until the existence of the supernatural is proven. The onus of proof is not on me

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

or should that be epistemology

Science is a response to conclusions of epistemology.

Zombrex

togster wrote: »

I already understand the importance of science.

I'm not sure you do, if you did it would be odd to be shocked (:eek:), sarcastically or not, at what Sam was saying.

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I don't know exactly what it does but it definitely does something.

I find it strange that you are certain it does something but you are not sure what I've seen you write many times before that you will not accept something unless you are sure of it's exsistance.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You're the one telling us we should all do it. Why are you insisting I provide evidence that it exists

No. I was not even talking about meditation. Meditation is a practice not a way of being. You were the one who mentioned meditation

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why are you insisting I provide evidence that it exists

Because you normally don't believe anything without evidence? And yet you are certain it works and you are not sure what it does.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

When I say it's a function of your mind I mean it's a natural phenomenon. It's a natural phenomenon right up until the existence of the supernatural is proven. The onus of proof is not on me

Perhaps it is a natural phenomenon but you claim to not know what it is. So how can you claim it to be natural or supernatural. It's not supernatural by the way. It's available to all of us.

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

so do you accept the big bang

What does that have to do with what I just said?

Anyway, I accept it as a well supported scientific theory that accurately models the current data.

Do you accept that Genesis is not referring to the Big Bang?

CDfm wrote: »

So your position is no Gods ever and you know this as in no levels - nada ,nyet,rien, nothing.

What?

That response has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

Remember I told you a while back that I would point out to you when you start doing this peculiar thing you do some times where your replies begin to make less and less sense in relation to the bits you quote before them.

Well you are doing it again.

Wicknight - It doesn't make the meaning clearer, it makes it in fact meaningless.

CDfm - So you agree chocolate is the best ice cream then.

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

In its simplest form it distracts the conscious mind and brings a sense of calm.

I would suggest it unveils the conscious mind.

togster

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not sure you do, if you did it would be odd to be shocked (:eek:), sarcastically or not, at what Sam was saying.

Yes i do.

Of course the degree of importance is different for different people. Importance is an abstract notion. It's subjective.

Zombrex

togster wrote: »

Because you normally don't believe anything without evidence? And yet you are certain it works and you are not sure what it does.

There is plenty of evidence that meditation improves the mental well being of the person doing it, and biological theories (testable ones) as to how it does this. There is no evidence that it does this in any supernatural fashion.

Zombrex

togster wrote: »

Yes i do.

Of course the degree of importance is different for different people. Importance is an abstract notion. It's subjective.

Ok, so you agree with what Sam is saying. If so why are not agreeing with what Sam is saying?

togster

Wicknight wrote: »

Ok, so you agree with what Sam is saying. If so why are not agreeing with what Sam is saying?

You need to read what i wrote!

I said i understand the importance of science.

I also said importance is subjective. It's individual. It's more important to some than others. I can disagree with him because i obviously do not think it's as important. Do you get my point?

togster

Wicknight wrote: »

There is plenty of evidence that meditation improves the mental well being of the person doing it, and biological theories (testable ones) as to how it does this. There is no evidence that it does this in any supernatural fashion.

How does it improve someones mental well being? And if it does, shouldn't the natural state of a person be the state generated while meditating?

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

I find it strange that you are certain it does something but you are not sure what I've seen you write many times before that you will not accept something unless you are sure of it's exsistance.

....
Because you normally don't believe anything without evidence? And yet you are certain it works and you are not sure what it does.

Perhaps it is a natural phenomenon but you claim to not know what it is. So how can you claim it to be natural or supernatural. It's not supernatural by the way. It's available to all of us.

I'm not sure what it does for two reasons:

1. We don't fully understand the human mind
2. I haven't bothered to look it up

What I do know is that it has been used by millions of people, religious and non-religious, to great effect for thousands for years. It definitely does something. This is a case where I know the evidence is there and I just haven't bothered to look it up, similar to how I've never bothered to ask someone to prove to me that the grand canyon exists because I know it does. So I'm not "believing without evidence", there is evidence and I just haven't bothered looking at it. This is different to religion where no evidence exists.

togster wrote: »

No. I was not even talking about meditation. Meditation is a practice not a way of being. You were the one who mentioned meditation

I'm the one who mentioned the word but what you were describing was meditation, you just didn't like me to put that label on it.

togster wrote: »

Perhaps it is a natural phenomenon but you claim to not know what it is. So how can you claim it to be natural or supernatural. It's not supernatural by the way. It's available to all of us.

Again, I don't know what it is because I haven't bothered studying it. I can say it's not supernatural because to date there is no evidence that the supernatural exists so that the default position is that it's not

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

Yes i do.

Of course the degree of importance is different for different people. Importance is an abstract notion. It's subjective.

Science is important if you want to be sure that you're correct in what you're saying but if you want to hold onto any old hypothesis without verifying if it's right or not you have no use for science

Sam Vimes

togster wrote: »

How does it improve someones mental well being? And if it does, shouldn't the natural state of a person be the state generated while meditating?

How's that then? What exactly is the natural state?

I would say the natural state is the one that you're in naturally, without having to do a mind altering technique to achieve

Zombrex

togster wrote: »

You need to read what i wrote!

I said i understand the importance of science.

I also said importance is subjective. It's individual. It's more important to some than others. I can disagree with him because i obviously do not think it's as important. Do you get my point?

I do, but my point is that it doesn't work like that. You cannot simply ignore the problems of personal subjective assessment (problems science attempts to address) because that is more important to you than not ignoring them. I mean you can if you wish but you will end up with a whole heap of mess. Whether or not you care is a different matter. But it shouldn't shocking to you that some people do care.

togster

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'm the one who mentioned the word but what you were describing was meditation, you just didn't like me to put that label on it.

What i was describing was a way of being akin to the state generated while meditating. I didn't want you to label it because i wanted to show you your minds need to label something in order to understand it.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Again, I don't know what it is because I haven't bothered studying it.

Some things can't be studied. You need to experience some things in order to fully comprehend.

togster

Wicknight wrote: »

But it shouldn't shocking to you that some people do care.

It's not shocking. I apologise for using (:eek:). I'll be more careful with him next time.

I was trying to point out how illogical it sounded to me that a person would continually doubt themselves and how they think. It had very little to do with science tbh.