Poker Boards Discussion thread... (BBV thread)

Dustaz

Well at least the important thing to remember here is that now people are free to post 5 characters in a thread untill it gets to a million in the peace they deserve...


Seriously? I know nothing about the poker forum and even less about TCN but I'm with the poker guys here. The thread is obviously very important to the entire forum and to move it wholesale because of a few posts in it was a big overreaction. If you're unable to move it back then hold up your hands and say "yeh, sorry about that, our mistake"

In a related matter, if admins/smods/cmods were so active at that time of night and since then, why werent the offenders just banned from TCN? Maybe the mods there need to be looked at rather than the mods in poker.

mewso

Onkle wrote: »

Are you saying it's ok for a thread to be used to form attacks on other forums/mods? I mean come on how can you expect that kind of behaviour to be tolerated.n

Missing the point completely. Everyone is saying the exact opposite. It's just some are saying blowing up an island to get some bloke in a house on that island is a bit too much.

Gary ITR

Rb wrote: »

I'm sorry but you're obviously failing to read properly.

The poker mods asked that people not fling bile at the admins and mods, after some comments were made about DeVore. Discussion continued without this "bile" and then Kinetic decided to prune the thread.

I have my posts that were deleted, there is no bile flinging at the admins or other moderators, yet they were deleted by Kinetic under the excuse that they were.

This is the last time I'm going to respond to you on the matter also.

I saw the poker mods snip posts earlier in the evening. A good number of posts were actually snipped. The poker mods requested that the issue not be discussed there. In fact Luckyloyd even snipped one of his own posts.

Karl Hungus

seamus wrote: »

But if you saw a post on one of your preferred forums recommending that they start **** in a thread on the "Italian" forum, you're report it, right? Why?

Yes, I would. But that's just me.

I'm not defending anyone, but I'm not condemning them either. A lack of action is not the same as taking part in an unsavory action, nor should it be taken into account.

seamus wrote: »

Bit of time. The other admins are still talking about this. I'm not all that involved apart from poking my 2c in, but I wasn't there for the initial decision so I'm going to leave it up to the others unless I feel my input/decision is required. There's no point in continually calling for its restoration - it'll either happen or it won't.

The opinion of the poker forum regulars is apparent and taken on board, but you well know yourself that this isn't a democracy and no rash actions will be taken on the back of 30 or 40 angry posters.

Aye, that's fair, but from reading this thread, it's very unclear as to whether the thread would be restored or not. I think you do need to give people a far more clear picture of what's going to happen.

seamus wrote: »

With all due respect, I think the Poker forum thinks too much of itself. The site was here and flourishing a long time before the poker forum. Remember that you guys came to boards, boards didn't come to you. That's not me saying, "Piss off, we don't want you", but comments like that are one step away from, "You need us boards, don't dare cross us". And that's not a road anyone wants to go down.

Seamus, do you not think that comments like "the poker forum thinks too much of itself" is not just stoking the fire here? You're actively propagating the us vs. them attitude that's going on. No, boards probably doesn't need the poker community, but even if people are acting like it does, it shouldn't matter, I think the boards admins should be above that.

tylerdurden94

Onkle wrote: »

I'd have thought a fresh start would be the way to go. Gets rid of the stigma now attached to the old thread.

I mean 4 of the mods have stepped down so why not let the new mods guide the new thread the way they see fit. I mean, the old thread isn't gone altogether, it's still there, still readable just locked and in a different place. Yo have a new one new, use it and take this as a lesson, report posts and don't encourage childish behaviour.

And Fatguy I'm not saying you encouraged behaviour or didn't report posts, what I'm saying os maybe in future the community as a whole will be more proactive in maintaining the integrity of your forum.

FWIW I am a lurker on the Poker forum, lurk there quite a bit actually

As you say "you's have a new with the old one still there" why not just put the original one back in its proper place?

Rb

Dustaz wrote: »

If you're unable to move it back then hold up your hands and say "yeh, sorry about that, our mistake"

I'd go so far as to say if it was moved without knowledge of the consequences to not only the community but to the actual data structure of the website, then the person who moved it should certainly not have had the ability to do so.

Gary ITR

tylerdurden94 wrote: »

As you say "you's have a new with the old one still there" why not just put the original one back in its proper place?

The fresh start will be good imo. Means all the crap attached to the old one is gone.

brianmc

Onkle wrote: »

The fresh start will be good imo. Means all the crap attached to the old one is gone.

A handful of posts out of 60,000 to be more precise.

Boston

mdwexford wrote: »

In all fairness to the "TCN regs" while the personal abuse was way over the line how can you really troll a thread where poeple type a number, not like there was a discussion being ruined or whatever.

That is the most pointless thread on the site.

Thats not for you to decide. Your don't get to destroy something for your amusement.

Wreck wrote: »

I don't have anymore right than anyone else. I didn't see the posts in the BBV, and even if had and had not reported them I would not deserve any punishment.

You shouldn't be punished, but I do think you're full of it when you say you care about the site, as a result.

Dustaz wrote: »

Well at least the important thing to remember here is that now people are free to post 5 characters in a thread untill it gets to a million in the peace they deserve...

Seriously? I know nothing about the poker forum and even less about TCN but I'm with the poker guys here. The thread is obviously very important to the entire forum and to move it wholesale because of a few posts in it was a big overreaction. If you're unable to move it back then hold up your hands and say "yeh, sorry about that, our mistake"

Just because it was pointless doesn't mean the poker regulars should be allowed attack it.

Killme00

Onkle wrote: »

The fresh start will be good imo. Means all the crap attached to the old one is gone.

To what crap are you reffering?

mdwexford

Onkle wrote: »

The fresh start will be good imo. Means all the crap attached to the old one is gone.

What "crap", what exactly does this mean, you seem to be in way over your head here discussing things you have no idea about.

If that thread doesnt go back it will be the death of the poker forum.

My name is URL

I noticed that the inevitable has happened here.... The issue has been likened to a pub scenario :rolleyes:

For the love of all that is good and online, can people try not to do that because it devalues every point that's being made from either side, imo

Pub owners don't sit around contemplating their problems and come to any conclusion that what they should do is take a webmasters route.

Killme00

brianmc wrote: »

A handful of posts out of 60,000 to be more precise.

Approx less than 0.25% and even that is high

So what happens to the other 99.75%

Rev Hellfire

Onkle wrote: »

The fresh start will be good imo. Means all the crap attached to the old one is gone.

Would you say the same if say a large volume of the posts in your forum where removed for no good reason other than someone couldn't be bothered to prune a thread and in a huff took the easy route a nuked it ?

Karl Hungus

Rb wrote: »

I'd go so far as to say if it was moved without knowledge of the consequences to not only the community but to the actual data structure of the website, then the person who moved it should certainly not have had the ability to do so.

To be fair to the admins on this one, every single mod on boards has the ability to move a thread to the recycle bin, and none of us have really known about any issue with restoring it again. It may have been an issue that the people who did know, didn't think would happen.

Gary ITR

Killme00 wrote: »

To what crap are you reffering?

Whatever started this. And also the antics with GY. Both of which had to be brought to an Admins attention to deal with because the poker mods didn't deal with it

mdwexford

Boston wrote: »

Thats not for you to decide. Your don't get to destroy something for your amusement.

I didnt decide a thing and i didnt destroy it either.

What i am saying is that a group of sane adults typing numbers in order in a thread seems a little strange to me. Maybe they should be left in peace to do it but the reaction to it has been ridiculous to the extreme, anyone with a brain can see that and it seems the admins just wont back down now for fear of looking silly or giving in to peer pressure or some such tripe.

Wreck

Boston wrote: »

You shouldn't be punished, but I do think you're full of it when you say you care about the site, as a result.

Just because it was pointless doesn't mean the poker regulars should be allowed attack it.

I'm not even going to respond to you calling me full of sh1t based on a hypothetical situation, but once again you have missed the point that no-one is defending the attack on the count to a million thread.

Gary ITR

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Would you say the same if say a large volume of the posts in your forum where removed for no good reason other than someone couldn't be bothered to prune a thread and in a huff took the easy route a nuked it ?

I would like to think that myself or my fellow mods would have dealt with the situation before it got as far as an admin

Beruthiel

Karl Hungus wrote: »

It may have been an issue that the people who did know, didn't think would happen.

Apparently, we were going to be told about it this week.

5starpool

Cross posted from a post by me in the poker mod forum.

============================
The statements that our moderation of the poker forum will have to change because of this is the deal breaker. Whatever happened previously in the GY incident has not bearing on this as that was a seperate issue and had been dealt with I thought. Insinuations that we condone forum invasions are off the mark.

Kev has admitted that he made a mistake at the time, but that seems not to be enough. He has said he is willing to accept some form of censure if you deem it appropriate. Ste saw some of the posts but after Kevs post saying "ah calm down lads, don't post abuse", I'm assuming that he thought the issue was dealt with. Myself, Laf and Lloyd were not online at the time.

We were not given the opportunity to sort this out imo. Speaking for myself, if this all ends in a big hug, then I would not be prepared to change the way I moderate, and have done for the last few years. I do not condone this behaviour, and having poker bans handed out in respect to all the people involved on the night is fine with me, but I would assume that it would be along the lines of 2 weeks for each, and those you have sitebanned, that is totally your call, I have no issues with it.

If the big threads thing is as much an issue as being said (and I have no reason to disbelieve you, this is what I would consider suitable steps (suggestion, not ultimatum).

1. We have accepted, and also previously knew, that what happened the other night is not on. Ste's points on how he would deal with this in future, are how I would also.
2. Post a general announcement in feedback or affected forums about really big threads, and say when they will be closed and new ones started. This will get a lot of the poker posters away from the victimisation mentality. Also say when they should be closed and new ones started in iteration (say 20k or whatever).
3. Delete the new bbv with the crap in it, move the old locked one back to poker, and in light of the above sitewide decision, start a new one. Leave any bold boys comments to mods as a courtesy as I really think it would be more effective. We could agree the general tone of it beforehand.
4. We moderate as before, but in light of previous, no messing around about other mods/forums will be allowed.
5. We will still allow others to link to silly CT threads or whatever, and discuss them there, but not with carte blanche of course. Posts like 'what a silly thread, link' are still ok as far as I am concerned. Abuse of specific posters on those threads is not ok though.
6. When we need an admin hand we call for one. I think the suggestion that we only go to DeV is wrong. I have previously had PM conversatiosn with several of the admins, as well as posting general mod forum threads for input, legal forum threads, and of course mod forum threads where we have asked for general admin opinion. I don't think anyone is saying that one admin or another should only deal with us.
7. We still of course recognise admin primacy on boards, but taking such a drastic step as was taken here is something that really does make you wonder if it is all worth it. there have been countless times where I have felt like resigning as poker mod due to one drama or other (internal) but because of the bond I have developed with the posters and the forum in general, I have not. A hand to steer and nudge things in a direction is how I view admins input into forums ethos, what I consider to be interference is not how I view it. Before anyone points it out, I do know how this site works and that admins do as they wish etc, but I am just putting forward my view into it.

I have no wish to see the poker forum in essence move elsewhere. A large part of what we are is because of where we are, but this is not just about the thread, and it never was. If this all boils down to an agreement being reached, and the mods both agreeing to stay on, and allowed to stay on (it is a 2 way discussion between us and admins I presume) then I will be delighted move on. It will not move on though if there is a percepion of people looking over your shoulder the whole time.

I moved up and down through this post as I thought of more things, so I hope it hangs together. Then general vibe should be clear though I think.

Killme00

Onkle wrote: »

Whatever started this. And also the antics with GY. Both of which had to be brought to an Admins attention to deal with because the poker mods didn't deal with it

I dont know what the GY stuff is but can you roughly estimate how many posts were craps out of the sixty or so thousand. Its seems that you have cut off somethings head when a haircut was needed.

Gary ITR

mdwexford wrote: »

I didnt decide a thing and i didnt destroy it either.

What i am saying is that a group of sane adults typing numbers in order in a thread seems a little strange to me. Maybe they should be left in peace to do it but the reaction to it has been ridiculous to the extreme, anyone with a brain can see that and it seems the admins just wont back down now for fear of looking silly or giving in to peer pressure or some such tripe.

In fairness not all of them are adults. What seems strange to one person is perfectly normal to another. TCN isn't one of my favourite forums but I leave them at what they are doing

Theresalwaysone

Why are the poker forum regulars even arguing with Onkle. Someone who called the thread a "cancer" to boards is not going to change their mind, so ignore him and let him waffle away.

strewelpeter

Boston wrote: »

...Why is the the poker forum's community more important then the one that exists there?

Show me where anyone says it is.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes a block vote was put together by the poker posters and they swept the awards, they are an organised community when they want to be.

Are you serious, this is a joke right? You might consider living in Iran where you have can have whatever election result you like if you are in power.

Onkle wrote: »

I'd have thought a fresh start would be the way to go. Gets rid of the stigma now attached to the old thread.

Stigma ! Wow. You are the same person that caled the thread a cancer yesterday and hasn't backed up that statement either.

FWIW I've been doing online communities since compuserve in 1992 and I have never felt happier to be a part of any community than I have in the last few years of Poker and the BBV. And that includes the many participants who make e want to tear my hair out on a daily basis.

It may not seem like it to people who are not involved but there is a lot of exceptional content buried in that thread.
It will be shame if what appears to me to have been a childishly petulant error by Gordon is allowed to destroy it.

RichieLawlor

Onkle wrote: »

I would like to think that myself or my fellow mods would have dealt with the situation before it got as far as an admin

Honestly, you have an agenda against the poker forum therefore your posts are 100% biased. i think its best if you stayed out of it

Rb

Karl Hungus wrote: »

To be fair to the admins on this one, every single mod on boards has the ability to move a thread to the recycle bin, and none of us have really known about any issue with restoring it again. It may have been an issue that the people who did know, didn't think would happen.

Fair point, Karl, I just think there should have been more caution shown when dealing with one of the biggest threads on the site, not only in amount of posts but also in views.

Hopefully there will be a lesson learnt as a result but I suppose it also supports my argument from earlier regarding people thinking they know best

seamus

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Seamus, do you not think that comments like "the poker forum thinks too much of itself" is not just stoking the fire here? You're actively propagating the us vs. them attitude that's going on. No, boards probably doesn't need the poker community, but even if people are acting like it does, it shouldn't matter, I think the boards admins should be above that.

I was trying to avoid that implication, but obviously I failed, so if anyone did think I was giving an us -v- them viewpoint, I apologise.

It however can't be denied that the same attitude is being displayed here by the general poker population participating in this thread - that boards.ie is exercising its will over the poker forum, instead of understanding that the poker forum is *part* of boards.ie and not some external principality or rogue state.

Comments "threatening" the admins about how much damage alienating the poker forum can do, don't help solve the issue and don't add to the discussion at hand, at all.

BuffyBot

OK - I've just had to infract one or two posters.

Keep it civil, people. Whatever the issue may be, civility is a requirement.

tylerdurden94

All this talk of it cant be moved, database etc etc reminds me of the time the BBV got moved by mistake into another section on the poker forum and it got moved back no problems!

So why not this time is my question?

Gary ITR

Killme00 wrote: »

I dont know what the GY stuff is but can you roughly estimate how many posts were craps out of the sixty or so thousand. Its seems that you have cut off somethings head when a haircut was needed.

What I'm saying is that there is a whole horrible stigma attached to the thread now. I thought the thread was gas. I didn't post in it not being one of the regulars and I don't play poker for real money so not so hardcore like the rest of ye

Imagine this. Your local pub, open since 1897, never a whiff of trouble and then one Friday night some lad gets shot. Do you think that pub will find it easy to have bums on seats the following Friday? I'm far from having a go here. I just think it's time to move forward and start things off on the right foot

brianmc

Onkle wrote: »

...some lad gets shot.

Rb

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Why are the poker forum regulars even arguing with Onkle. Someone who called the thread a "cancer" to boards is not going to change their mind, so ignore him and let him waffle away.

Indeed, his furious backpeddling and selective reading is amusing though.

Nevyn

strewelpeter wrote: »

Are you serious, this is a joke right? You might consider living in Iran where you have can have whatever election result you like if you are in power.

Yep cos the LuBNiP forum did the same 3 years ago and swept the awards,
we had the biggest block vote and we all voted together, same way the poker forum did for the last awards.

strewelpeter wrote: »

FWIW I've been doing online communities since compuserve in 1992 and I have never felt happier to be a part of any community than I have in the last few years of Poker and the BBV. And that includes the many participants who make e want to tear my hair out on a daily basis.

Thats really cool that you found a home here.

strewelpeter wrote: »

It may not seem like it to people who are not involved but there is a lot of exceptional content buried in that thread.
It will be shame if what appears to me to have been a childishly petulant error by Gordon is allowed to destroy it.

It's not destroyed it's just not currently in the poker forum and no one can post in it.

Boston

5starpool wrote: »

Cross posted from a post by me in the poker mod forum.

============================
The statements that our moderation of the poker forum will have to change because of this is the deal breaker. Whatever happened previously in the GY incident has not bearing on this as that was a seperate issue and had been dealt with I thought. Insinuations that we condone forum invasions are off the mark.

Kev has admitted that he made a mistake at the time, but that seems not to be enough. He has said he is willing to accept some form of censure if you deem it appropriate. Ste saw some of the posts but after Kevs post saying "ah calm down lads, don't post abuse", I'm assuming that he thought the issue was dealt with. Myself, Laf and Lloyd were not online at the time.

...


I moved up and down through this post as I thought of more things, so I hope it hangs together. Then general vibe should be clear though I think.

Here's my counter proposal.

1. How about you cop on and moderate in accordance to how the rest of the site is moderated or go elsewhere?

tylerdurden94: I don't know when that was but the database was redesigned recently enough and also the thread would have been much smaller.

Slash/ED

This whole debate can be summed up in one picture

Wreck

seamus wrote: »

Comments "threatening" the admins about how much damage alienating the poker forum can do, don't help solve the issue and don't add to the discussion at hand, at all.

I don't think most of those comments are meant as threats, I just think alot of us are mystified as to why you would want to piss off a sizeable section of boards users.

mdwexford

Onkle wrote: »

What I'm saying is that there is a whole horrible stigma attached to the thread now. I thought the thread was gas. I didn't post in it not being one of the regulars and I don't play poker for real money so not so hardcore like the rest of ye

Imagine this. Your local pub, open since 1897, never a whiff of trouble and then one Friday night some lad gets shot. Do you think that pub will find it easy to have bums on seats the following Friday? I'm far from having a go here. I just think it's time to move forward and start things off on the right foot

Analogies are not your strong point sir.

A 60k post thread which is a forum institution has 2 or 3 guys troll a "thread" so lets ditch it?

Do you really think this will have any bearing on stopping people trolling ever again?

Over-reaction, end of story.

Onkle

Onkle wrote: »

Imagine this. Your local pub, open since 1897, never a whiff of trouble and then one Friday night some lad gets shot. Do you think that pub will find it easy to have bums on seats the following Friday? I'm far from having a go here. I just think it's time to move forward and start things off on the right foot

Contender for worst comparison ever.

My name is URL

Thaedydal wrote: »

It's not destroyed it's just not currently in the poker forum and no one can post in it.

lol

RichieLawlor

Boston wrote: »

Here's my counter proposal.

1. How about you cop on and moderate in accordance to how the rest of the site is moderated or go elsewhere?

tylerdurden94: I don't know when that was but the database was redesigned recently enough and also the thread would have been much smaller.

You are out of order here, admins

Gary ITR

brianmc wrote: »

My point being that one bad incident in a place where there is usually harmony can tarnish it. I'm not comparing what happened here to a somebody being killed.

Dav

tylerdurden94 wrote: »

All this talk of it cant be moved, database etc etc reminds me of the time the BBV got moved by mistake into another section on the poker forum and it got moved back no problems!

So why not this time is my question?

It's very big and causes a problem for the database. To do so now at one of our peak times in the day, would bring the site down.

RoundTower

Boston wrote: »

Here's my counter proposal.

1. How about you cop on and moderate in accordance to how the rest of the site is moderated or go elsewhere?

tylerdurden94: I don't know when that was but the database was redesigned recently enough and also the thread would have been much smaller.

Can anyone fill me in on who is this guy from moderator land? I'm not trying to insult anyone here but he is sounding like some kind of super secret admin.

Slash/ED

Is this whole thing not like saying, well Man United and Liverpool threads in soccer are usually full of trolls so we'll ban the discussion of either team on the soccer forum, simple.

Except it's not a great analogy, because they usually ARE full of trolls with a far higher troll/decent post ratio, not the few posts/60,000 ratio that the BBV had

RoundTower

Dav wrote: »

It's very big and causes a problem for the database. To do so now at one of our peak times in the day, would bring the site down.

This is a total red herring, I don't think anyone would care about waiting 14 hours for it to make its way back to the poker forum.

mdwexford

Dav wrote: »

It's very big and causes a problem for the database. To do so now at one of our peak times in the day, would bring the site down.

No need to do it now, all people want is some kind of confirmation that it will or at least can be moved back.

We are being sensible here with our side of this debate, there is no valid reason to not move it back if it is possible to do so.

Hermy

Killme00 wrote: »

To what crap are you reffering?

Crap like this perhaps.
If KevIrl had nipped this in the bud when it started the BBV thread would still be going strong and heading for 70,000 posts. Instead he actively encouraged the trolling and offensive posting which rightly or wrongly led to the removal of the BBV thread.

Macspower

Onkle wrote: »

The fresh start will be good imo. Means all the crap attached to the old one is gone.

On this note please stop posting...

will some level headed mod please have a word here... this is not helping...

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Comments "threatening" the admins about how much damage alienating the poker forum can do, don't help solve the issue and don't add to the discussion at hand, at all.

Seriously Seamus, please think before posting stuff like "threats". Nobody is threatening anyone. You cannot make a post saying "I wasn't trying to stoke up any us v them mentality" and then claim some posters were making threats in the same post.

Some people said the poker forum community could conceivably leave boards en masse if this issue was not resolved amicably. That is not a threat, it is a perception of a possibility. It would not be good for boards if all the posters in AH left, or BGRH, or the Ladies Lounge, or TCN or any other forum. However since we can only speak for the poker forum we can only refer to that. Any part of boards choosing to leave would be detrimental to the site as a whole.