DHL VAT charge - but it's marked as a gift - do I have to pay?

Aziraphale

I ordered a netbook from Japan. It got as far as Cork. DHL have just sent me a thing called a 'DUTY/VAT Invoice'. Basically, they want me to pay them 120€. The invoice is weird - it doesn't even have an email address for me to contact them, just an address. What do they expect me to do with that?

The photocopy of the customs declaration stapled to the top sheet clearly says: 'This is a gift'. I thought the whole point of this was so that I didn't have to pay VAT. Do I? Please cite law.

In any case, there is no way I can get 120€ by the 7 days from the invoice date (I got the invoice today, they decided it would be clever to post it on a Friday, etc.). What happens if I can't pay it? Is it enough that I write to DHL explaining why they shouldn't be asking me to pay VAT?

Sponge Bob

Gift limit is c €45 ( incl courier charges) , that is €120 vat meaning the gift is about €500 alone so you must pay yes!

leeroybrown

As Sponge Bob says, there is a defined limit for VAT exempt gifts. A package coming in from the far east marked as 'gift' just highlights it as VAT avoidance (which is what you were doing). You'll have to pay otherwise you'll lose the package. Also, it's Customs who've decided that VAT is due so the matter is completely outside DHL's discretion.

Paulw

You should pay the VAT, and you can then lodge a dispute with the Revenue over the issue.

If you do not pay the VAT due, then I believe that the Revenue will take the item.

This has very little to do with DHL, as they are only acting as a collection agency for the revenue.

JustAddWater

Having worked for UPS and specifically in customs charges, DHL have nothing to do with the charge and legally obliged not to release the package into the country unless the VAT has been paid in full.


Customs usually open the box (maybe not in the case of your laptop) and decided that VAT must be paid, they then pass this info to DHL who must pass this charge to you.

Unfortunately, we have had many a package returned to where it came from. In UPS' case the driver would collect the money on delivery. No moula, no package. not sure again about DHL but UPS would take cheques, meaning you have some extra time after writing a cheque to get to your bank. That's probably about all the extra time you could buy yourself


You could always ring customs directly but I can guarantee you it'll be a long process you'll have to pay upfront and get a refund, and if you don't pay you'll be certain your laptop is going back to Japan.

Customs never cared what the box said on it, they'd open it, sneak a peek and decide the appropriate VAT rate and then bill you

I feel for you, I really do. I've had many complaints to me, but it's customs at the end of the day

Aziraphale

If you do not pay the VAT due, then I believe that the Revenue will take the item.

And keep it? Isn't that theft?

I have thought of a new solution: I think my father has a VAT number (at least, he's self-employed). Can I give them that instead of cash?

Paulw

Aziraphale wrote: »

And keep it? Isn't that theft?

I have thought of a new solution: I think my father has a VAT number (at least, he's self-employed). Can I give them that instead of cash?

Sorry, I see JustAddWater posted, with more information. The package is sent back to the sender.

But, the revenue are entitled to sieze any item until such time as the duty is paid.

I doubt you can now get around it claiming that your dad is getting it, and using his VAT number.

That would be classified as revenue fraud, especially since you just publically posted on boards saying you were going to do it. :eek:

JustAddWater

You could use your dad's VAT number, BUT that would be fraud

In anycase, someone correct me if i'm wrong, but a VAT number means that you pay the VAT at the time of purchase and when doing your returns you excelude the VAT you did pay already against what you're going to pay

Meaning you would still have to pay the €120 for delivery, just means your dad would pay €120 less VAT when returning VAT

So it doesn't fix your problem and would leave you in a bad place with the revenue. Can't recommend that

Aziraphale

Okay, I see it would be complicated, but JustAddWater, why would using a VAT number be fraud?

If the package gets sent back to Japan, what happens then? Do I get a refund and buy it from a different company with a different postal service, or is it nastier than that?

Spocker

Some specific information from the CitizensInformation website to confirm what the others have said:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/money-and-tax/tax/duties-and-vat/value-added-tax

Citizensinformation.ie wrote:

If you buy online or by mail order etc.

From outside the EU

You can buy goods from outside the EU up to a value of €22 without incurring any VAT charges. Goods up to a value of €150 may be imported without payment of Customs Duty. To avoid these packages being stopped by Customs, the value should be clearly marked on the label. However, VAT and import duty is charged on importations of tobacco, tobacco products, alcoholic product and perfumes even if they cost less than €22. The Revenue Commissioners provide a Guide to the reliefs available for the import from non-EC countries.

If your online purchase costs more than €22 you will have to pay VAT. If your online purchase costs more than €150 you will have to pay VAT and Customs Duty. This will be collected by the company that delivers your parcel. The company usually have an administration charge. Methods of delivery and collection differ from company to company, so you should contact them directly for more information.

Mr. Presentable

Honestly, just pay your taxes like any other citizen. Using your father's Vat No is not a solution. As has been pointed out, the VAT must be paid and then reclaimed by VAT return through your father's accounts. The fraud happens when someone other than your father's company uses his VAT No.

madmik

are you really asking for advice on how to defraud the revenue on a public forum ?

JustAddWater

Aziraphale wrote: »

Okay, I see it would be complicated, but JustAddWater, why would using a VAT number be fraud?

Because the laptop has nothing at all do with your dad's business. It's better if you don't go down that road, the VAT man may come a'knocking and then you'll be in more trouble, and your dad too.

I know people who have VAT numbers, i'd never ask them to use it. It's not worth it honestly. Plus you would still have to pay now anyway

Aziraphale

madmik wrote: »

are you really asking for advice on how to defraud the revenue on a public forum ?

No, I'm asking for advice on how to prevent the Revenue from defrauding me. I don't even know who the Revenue are. Are they the same people who charge income tax on wages?

Twin-go

There should be a contact number and a Ref Number on the VAT request document. It may be worth a call to them see if you can get a reduction in the VAT bill. Worth a shot.

The Wife and i got a similar VAT request last year on a wedding gift from the USA. We gave them a call and they were very nice about it and cancelled the request and the parcel was delivered next day.

Aziraphale

What if I told them I was exporting it from the EU again soon? Would I then get it without VAT, similar to buying something duty-free in an airport?

Aziraphale

Twin-go wrote: »

There should be a contact number and a Ref Number on the VAT request document. It may be worth a call to them see if you can get a reduction in the VAT bill. Worth a shot.

The Wife and i got a similar VAT request last year on a wedding gift from the USA. We gave them a call and they were very nice about it and cancelled the request and the parcel was delivered next day.

Twin-go, did that have a value declared on the package as well as saying it was a gift? I would do that, but I can't phone. That's why I'm annoyed at them for not giving an email address.

granturismo

Aziraphale wrote: »

No, I'm asking for advice on how to prevent the Revenue from defrauding me.

They are not defrauding you. Unfortunately you are being asked by DHL to pay legally due VAT. Either pay €120 or if you dont then its between you and the Japanese supplier to argue whether you're entitled to get the cost of the laptop netbook back.

Aziraphale wrote: »

I don't even know who the Revenue are.

www.revenue.ie.

cgarvey

Aziraphale wrote: »

No, I'm asking for advice on how to prevent the Revenue from defrauding me. I don't even know who the Revenue are. Are they the same people who charge income tax on wages?

Read all about who the revenue are on their site.

They're not "defrauding" you. They're collecting the duties and taxes that you are legally liable to pay, as a resident of this country.

If you give your father's VAT no. (if he has one, not all self-employed people have to register for one), he'll be responsible for proving that the purchase is used for the business (and only for the business). There are all sorts of asides to that (like claiming part for personal use, and part for business use), for which you need the advice of a tax consultant / accountant (and not, generally, a public forum).

There are 2 ways for Revenue to deal with the matter, if you (well, your father really) choose to claim against his VAT number.
1) They may deduct the VAT charge, but a customs import duty may still apply, as may a handling charge from both the Revenue (less likely) and your courier (almost certainly).
2) They may tell you to pay the VAT now and claim it back later (not as straight forward as a normal VAT3 return; generally thought of as a pain in the ass)

Which they method they choose is up to them, and your credibility will be taken in to account.

jor el

Aziraphale wrote: »

No, I'm asking for advice on how to prevent the Revenue from defrauding me. I don't even know who the Revenue are. Are they the same people who charge income tax on wages?

Yes, you are asking how to defraud Revenue, and yes, they are the people who collect tax on behalf of the Government. Revenue are not defrauding you, and if you think they are, you are wrong.

Putting Gift on a package that isn't a gift is illegal, and an attempt to defraud Revenue. Using the VAT number of a business for a personal purchase is even more illegal, and a serious fraud.

Not paying the VAT will result in your parcel being returned to the sender, and they may charge you a restocking fee, as it's your responsibility to know about local taxes, not theirs.

Aziraphale wrote:

What if I told them I was exporting it from the EU again soon? Would I then get it without VAT, similar to buying something duty-free in an airport?

Pointless, as the duty is due when you bring it into the state, and you don't get it back when it leaves.

Twin-go

Aziraphale wrote: »

Twin-go, did that have a value declared on the package as well as saying it was a gift? I would do that, but I can't phone. That's why I'm annoyed at them for not giving an email address.

Yes it had the declared value and Gift on a green tag stuck to the side of the package.

Revinue.ie will have a contact Number/Address for your nearest Revinue Office. I find these state bodies can be e-mail adverse (Not listing or not replying when they do list one). Get in contact with them. You will probably still have to pay something but better than loosing your notebook.

dudara

Aziraphale wrote: »

What if I told them I was exporting it from the EU again soon? Would I then get it without VAT, similar to buying something duty-free in an airport?

No, you are not an import/export business. You are a private consumer and therefore liable for VAT when the goods enter this country.

You will pay VAT on the goods and delivery charges and there may be a duty charge as well, depending on the nature of the goods.

If you use your father's VAT number, then he will have a legal obligation to demonstrate that those goods are used for the purpose of his business. If he can't prove that, then he could face an audit and legal penalties.

No, I'm asking for advice on how to prevent the Revenue from defrauding me. I don't even know who the Revenue are. Are they the same people who charge income tax on wages?

You really need to educate yourself on the purpose of the Revenue, and their duties. Ignorance is no excuse. The Revenue are not here to defraud people, they are in fact generally regarded as a well-run operation.

Twin-go, did that have a value declared on the package as well as saying it was a gift? I would do that, but I can't phone. That's why I'm annoyed at them for not giving an email address.

Contact DHL via phone and ask to speak to their customs & duties department. They can break the costs down for you. Remember though that they are just collecting the money of behalf of Revenue.

Paulw

Aziraphale wrote: »

What if I told them I was exporting it from the EU again soon? Would I then get it without VAT, similar to buying something duty-free in an airport?

You are not buying duty-free from an airport, you're buying from Japan, from a store. You are therefore liable to pay any vat/duty on the goods, as decided by the Revenue.

In short - pay up and live with it, or else don't pay and you can fight with the company in Japan about getting a refund.

dvpower

Aziraphale wrote: »

Is it enough that I write to DHL explaining why they shouldn't be asking me to pay VAT?

Wouldn't you have to lie? It seems that you have imported a netbook from Japan, so you are liable to VAT.

I have thought of a new solution: I think my father has a VAT number (at least, he's self-employed). Can I give them that instead of cash?

No. That would be VAT fraud.

What if I told them I was exporting it from the EU again soon?

Again with the VAT fraud.


Why don't you pay your taxes like everyone else?

HighMan

Just pay your tax like everyone else and stop looking for ways out.

craichoe

Aziraphale wrote: »

No, I'm asking for advice on how to prevent the Revenue from defrauding me. I don't even know who the Revenue are. Are they the same people who charge income tax on wages?

Then why was it so important that it was marked gift ?

Del2005

Aziraphale wrote: »

What if I told them I was exporting it from the EU again soon? Would I then get it without VAT, similar to buying something duty-free in an airport?

Correct me if I'm wrong on this. When you buy something duty free in an airport all you are doing is not paying local taxes. When you bring it back to Ireland you're supposed declare it to customs by going through the red zone and they will then charge you the appropriate taxes due here. The fact that most people just go straight throught the green zone means they can be charged penalties if caught.

Just pay the VAT/duties due on the laptop you bought, as I'm sure if you dig a little on the site you bought it from it says the purchaser is liable for all local taxes. And learn the lesson that only products purchased within the EU can be imported tax free.

dade

Del2005 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong on this. .

ok you may be wrong on this

Del2005 wrote: »

When you bring it back to Ireland you're supposed declare it to customs by going through the red zone and they will then charge you the appropriate taxes due here. .

you can go through the green side if what you are taking into the country is under a certain value or quantity

Shzm

learn to internet shop better

Aziraphale

Okay. I get most people think I should pay the tax. Any more ideas on what will happen if I don't, or if it's paid after DHL's deadline?

rubadub

Aziraphale wrote: »

What if I told them I was exporting it from the EU again soon?

You are selling on your personal "gift"

In practise customs seem to treat everything as a gift, i.e. the limit used is usually €45. I remember a customs lad on the news actually saying the limit was €45, and made no mention of the gift thing. It is not really worth the admin costs to collect on less than that.

You have not been "stung", if you bought the laptop in dell etc then the VAT & duty would already be added on. This just demonstrates that many shops are not a "ripoff".