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The Mayor of Waterford..
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Oh pardon him for campaigning on behalf of workers getting a decent wage for their work.
It does need to generate employment, it also needs to protect workers rights who already have employment. Without Unions, there would be severe undercutting in workers wages - which might be fine in other countries, but not in the rip-off Republic which is one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in. People have bills to pay, families to feed - and if their wages are attacked - then this severely affects their living standards.
They pay well and provide fair conditions, and if they squeezed their workers then there would certainly be a need for one. Although, I wouldn't put my faith in American multinationals too much, since they could walk at any given time - Ala Dell.
Mr. Binman's owner is NOT paying well, and has already insulted his long-time employees. Not only that, but he is asking to increase the working week. He is exploiting the current economic climate, by trying to squeeze the last drop of milk out of his workers. All they are asking is to be paid fairly for their work. You don't have to be a communist or a capitalist to appreciate that.
the point i'm making is the whole idea of unions is a backward step. The HRM example of the American companies with the mass of regulation protecting workers is the way to go.
Protecting poor performing workers is as equally appaling as an employer not paying a fair wage and in my opinion that is what unions do!0 -
well butty wrote: »the point i'm making is the whole idea of unions is a backward step. The HRM example of the American companies with the mass of regulation protecting workers is the way to go.
Backwards step? Since when was protecting workers rights a backwards step? It's a forwards step if anything. Unless you're a business owner who wants to squeeze the last drop of milk from your employees.
It's a perfectly forward-minded step for the working class of the world. You seem to only give a monkeys about the business, and not the worker.well butty wrote: »Protecting poor performing workers is as equally appaling as an employer not paying a fair wage and in my opinion that is what unions do!
Since when was were they protecting poor performing workers? Let' stick to the issue at hand. These workers are not getting a fair days wage, and that's the root of the problem. The employer is racist, and categorically disrespects his workers, without a bat of an eye. The same workers that filled his pockets with cash.
You're jumping around the topic at hand. Debate the real issues!0 -
Backwards step? Since when was protecting workers rights a backwards step? It's a forwards step if anything. Unless you're a business owner who wants to squeeze the last drop of milk from your employees.
When backward left wing loonies control it! Protecting what; Their right to an additional 30 days holidays a year (uncertified sick leave); Protect their [Gardí] right to €6.00 a week to polish their shoes, €10.00 a week to iron their uniform. The list could go on. The fact is unions are not required anymore in a regulated society where there are more laws in place to protect the worker that there is the employer. End of storey!It's a perfectly forward-minded step for the working class of the world. You seem to only give a monkeys about the business, and not the worker.
Depending on who's perspective you are looking at it from! I believe that everyone should be treated fairly including both the employee and the employer. Unfortunately, here in Ireland we are so far behind the rest of the world as far as HR Management is concerned!Since when was were they protecting poor performing workers? Let' stick to the issue at hand. These workers are not getting a fair days wage, and that's the root of the problem. The employer is racist, and categorically disrespects his workers, without a bat of an eye. The same workers that filled his pockets with cash.
You're jumping around the topic at hand. Debate the real issues!
Remember without entrepreneurs there is no business and without no business there is no work. I think you would prefer a communist state.
And how is he racist because he called the Irish Paddies?? Again, unfortunately, some of what he had to say is right. The Irish have become lazy. The Polish are the Irish of the 60s, 70s and 80s where we worked hard far a field. We need to grow up now and smell the roses before the IMF come in and remember if they do they will not recognise any Union!!!!!!!!
If the Mayor supports a minority group (Mr. Binman employees) should he support every other minority group like serial objectors etc. etc.??? where would he stop????0 -
well butty wrote: »When backward left wing loonies control it!
Opposed to the right wing loonies, who are more than happy to shaft the working class to protect big businessmen?well butty wrote: »Protecting what
I believe we've covered this already. The right to earn a fair wage, to be treated with respect and to have fair working conditions.well butty wrote: »The fact is unions are not required anymore in a regulated society where there are more laws in place to protect the worker that there is the employer.
Tell that to the thousands of workers who have lost their jobs on unfair conditions, or have been asked to take inappropriate paycuts, or have been harassed by their employer, or have been exploited. There will always be the need for Unions, because Employers case about profit before people. And if you don't understand the concept of profit before people, and why there needs to be someone to protect the people - then the ideologies of protection of the working class are lost on you.well butty wrote: »End of storey!
Oh you said it, so it must be the final word. There is a reason that Unions have a huge membership base here in Ireland, and around the world. The requirement for their protection is a must, and that is the basis of their necessity to exist.well butty wrote: »Depending on who's perspective you are looking at it from! I believe that everyone should be treated fairly including both the employee and the employer.
No you don't. Don't lie. You've already agreed with the assumption that Irish people are lazy - and sided with that utter gobshíte Sheehan. He's a bigot, and a danger to the working-class people & wage of Ireland.well butty wrote: »Remember without entrepreneurs there is no business and without no business there is no work.
I'm all for business. But the business you are constantly speaking of, is foreign multinational business which can go in the blink of an eye and turn the local economy upsidedown. I'd be more than happy to see a successful local businessman, have a good profitable business, where he can employ workers and treat them fairly.well butty wrote: »And how is he racist because he called the Irish Paddies??
Not only because of the label of Paddies, but because he stated that they were lazy (as if, by birth in a specific country makes you more likely to be lazy than somewhere else).
There are many lazy people in all countries, but to label Irish workers as lazy is not only disrespectful to his own hard-working employees, but the 100,000's of hard workers across Ireland.well butty wrote: »Again, unfortunately, some of what he had to say is right
No, it wasn't.well butty wrote: »The Irish have become lazy.
No, they haven't.well butty wrote: »The Polish are the Irish of the 60s, 70s and 80s where we worked hard far a field.
No, they haven't. They are as equally hard-working as their fellow Irish workers.well butty wrote: »We need to grow up now and smell the roses
The only person that needs to do that, is you.well butty wrote: »If the Mayor supports a minority group (Mr. Binman employees) should he support every other minority group like serial objectors etc. etc.??? where would he stop????
He supports workers who have been disrespected, mistreated, who have had their wages undercut and their hours increased. He is a good man, and there needs to be more like them.
It's people like you that ruin this country for the working-class people.0 -
well butty wrote: »The fact is unions are not required anymore in a regulated society where there are more laws in place to protect the worker that there is the employer.
I'm afraid you have been grossly misinformed on that one. They are very much required still. Even with unions, companies still try their luck on walking all over employees if they think there is half a chance of getting away with it. Luckily, unions are still around to help those employees set things straight. You say regulation can be used instead, but following that through courts can be prohibitively expensive for employees.0 -
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I'm afraid you have been grossly misinformed on that one. They are very much required still. Even with unions, companies still try their luck on walking all over employees if they think there is half a chance of getting away with it. Luckily, unions are still around to help those employees set things straight. You say regulation can be used instead, but following that through courts can be prohibitively expensive for employees.
Grossly misinformed - certainly not. Firstly, employers do not need to be chased through the courts, they can be brought to the Labour Court at NO cost to the employee. I think maybe you are the one that is misinformed.
However, i do believe that you are generalising when you suggest that "companies still try their luck on walking all over employees if they think there is half a chance of getting away with it" How many companies? What percentage of companies are we talking about? There will be rogue employers as there are rouge employees. It's sounding like old school left wing brainwashing to me!!0 -
Opposed to the right wing loonies, who are more than happy to shaft the working class to protect big businessmen?
I believe we've covered this already. The right to earn a fair wage, to be treated with respect and to have fair working conditions.
Tell that to the thousands of workers who have lost their jobs on unfair conditions, or have been asked to take inappropriate paycuts, or have been harassed by their employer, or have been exploited. There will always be the need for Unions, because Employers case about profit before people. And if you don't understand the concept of profit before people, and why there needs to be someone to protect the people - then the ideologies of protection of the working class are lost on you.
Oh you said it, so it must be the final word. There is a reason that Unions have a huge membership base here in Ireland, and around the world. The requirement for their protection is a must, and that is the basis of their necessity to exist.
No you don't. Don't lie. You've already agreed with the assumption that Irish people are lazy - and sided with that utter gobshíte Sheehan. He's a bigot, and a danger to the working-class people & wage of Ireland.
I'm all for business. But the business you are constantly speaking of, is foreign multinational business which can go in the blink of an eye and turn the local economy upsidedown. I'd be more than happy to see a successful local businessman, have a good profitable business, where he can employ workers and treat them fairly.
Not only because of the label of Paddies, but because he stated that they were lazy (as if, by birth in a specific country makes you more likely to be lazy than somewhere else).
There are many lazy people in all countries, but to label Irish workers as lazy is not only disrespectful to his own hard-working employees, but the 100,000's of hard workers across Ireland.
No, it wasn't.
No, they haven't.
No, they haven't. They are as equally hard-working as their fellow Irish workers.
The only person that needs to do that, is you.
He supports workers who have been disrespected, mistreated, who have had their wages undercut and their hours increased. He is a good man, and there needs to be more like them.
It's people like you that ruin this country for the working-class people.
I was going to answer all your points individually however, if anything you are consistent, consistently intransigent and unable to see the wood from the trees!!:rolleyes:0 -
well butty wrote: »I was going to answer all your points individually however, if anything you are consistent, consistently intransigent and unable to see the wood from the trees!!:rolleyes:
Great rebuttal. Must have you on my debating team some time.. You'd make a heck of an addition.0 -
That new mayor huh? What a guy. I think we can all agree on that.
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If the Mayor supports a minority group (Mr. Binman employees) should he support every other minority group like serial objectors etc. etc.??? where would he stop????
Sorry, what?Remember without entrepreneurs there is no business and without no business there is no work
Sorry, what?I would like to see our Mayor involved in proper politics and not showboating to be honest!!!!
Sorry, what?We need to grow up now and smell the roses before the IMF come in and remember if they do they will not recognise any Union!!!!!!!!
Just wow. Seriously. I'm not sure if you're trying to crack us all up or if you genuinely are that clueless?!0 -
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well butty wrote: »Grossly misinformed - certainly not. Firstly, employers do not need to be chased through the courts, they can be brought to the Labour Court at NO cost to the employee. I think maybe you are the one that is misinformed.
However, i do believe that you are generalising when you suggest that "companies still try their luck on walking all over employees if they think there is half a chance of getting away with it" How many companies? What percentage of companies are we talking about? There will be rogue employers as there are rouge employees. It's sounding like old school left wing brainwashing to me!!
Free labour courts, not including related costs in time and money to the employee. It's much better to get things sorted out before it needs to go that far.
You say rogue employers as if you mean small isolated employers. There's "rogue employers" such as Dunnes and Tesco, which account for a rather large amount of people. Lots of stuff happens in factories and the like too. Just because you may not hear about them trying their luck in public doesn't mean it isn't happening constantly. And I do mean constantly. A lot of attempted abuse gets sorted out before getting far if a union rep is invited to a meeting. And that is with unions involved. If there were no unions, I dread to think what would happen. I personally know two people who made some minor mistakes after being put under a lot of pressure due to staff cutbacks and cuts in hours leaving them unable to do their job properly. Lots of people are in the same position, but they were picked on for some reason. They were going to be fired until they said they were bringing a union rep to the meeting. Your option is for them to be fired and then try to drag the company through the labour court, meanwhile they've lost their income and other difficulties arising from it. Despite what you may think, it isn't easy for people to go through all that.0 -
Free labour courts, not including related costs in time and money to the employee. It's much better to get things sorted out before it needs to go that far.
You say rogue employers as if you mean small isolated employers. There's "rogue employers" such as Dunnes and Tesco, which account for a rather large amount of people. Lots of stuff happens in factories and the like too. Just because you may not hear about them trying their luck in public doesn't mean it isn't happening constantly. And I do mean constantly. A lot of attempted abuse gets sorted out before getting far if a union rep is invited to a meeting. And that is with unions involved. If there were no unions, I dread to think what would happen. I personally know two people who made some minor mistakes after being put under a lot of pressure due to staff cutbacks and cuts in hours leaving them unable to do their job properly. Lots of people are in the same position, but they were picked on for some reason. They were going to be fired until they said they were bringing a union rep to the meeting. Your option is for them to be fired and then try to drag the company through the labour court, meanwhile they've lost their income and other difficulties arising from it. Despite what you may think, it isn't easy for people to go through all that.
I take on board your point. However, the opposite is true also. I'm sure you could also supply a lot of anecdotal evidence of employees chancing their arms and being protected by the Unions (unelected protectors of wasters)!!0 -
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And rightly so. People should be treated with respect, paid fairly by their employer and work under fair conditions. If an employer can't meet this conditions, then he/she should be rightly tackled by the Unions.
Never once suggested otherwise. I just feel that, while unions have benefits, they have to much control. I mean, come on - putting the Lisbon at risk just to get their way? (Yes, I know Sinn Fein are anti EU/Lisbon and are spreading the usual ****e about Lisbon)Seemed to be a pretty large group in Waterford present, although you probably wouldn't know since no FG representatives appeared to be present.
Anything I have read or heard seemed to suggest it was only a small selection of the work force striking. The unions are making demands, the company refuses to listen to a union and will only deal directly with the employers. As for the FG rep not being present - I have no idea what the situation is with regards to that but ill pass on your feedback all the same!I'm glad you think it is ok to implement wage cuts of 10-49%, increase the working week by 6 hours along with this cuts, flat out refuse to speak to the elected Union representatives who are attempting to have a fairer compromise between the two - and not to mention, for the employer to flat out make racist remarks to his employers, insult them, and undercut their wage severely.
Why are you twisting what I said? I never said the protests were not justified. I never said the employers were right or wrong nor the employees. All I said was that I believe Unions have to much control over our country and in this case one company is making a stand, so to say, by refusing to speak with a union. Is this a Sinn Fein thing, add tails onto something someone else said? Talk about making up ****e.0 -
And rightly so. People should be treated with respect, paid fairly by their employer and work under fair conditions. If an employer can't meet this conditions, then he/she should be rightly tackled by the Unions.
Agree that people should be treated fairly... However, i believe that bringing in the heavies to deal with a HR problem is like opening a peanut with a sledgehammer! Us V Them... not the way to go at all!!!Seemed to be a pretty large group in Waterford present, although you probably wouldn't know since no FG representatives appeared to be present.
The group of workers walking and holding up traffic in Waterford was very small as they walked past my place of employment. I do however, question them bringing children along to be indoctrinated with the ranting and negativity that are associated with Union marches!!
Yes you also had a couple of ex-Waterford Crystal employees there, so the number of Mr. Binman employees was quite small.I'm glad you think it is ok to implement wage cuts of 10-49%, increase the working week by 6 hours along with this cuts, flat out refuse to speak to the elected Union representatives who are attempting to have a fairer compromise between the two - and not to mention, for the employer to flat out make racist remarks to his employers, insult them, and undercut their wage severely.
Need all the detail to comment on this one.0 -
well butty wrote: »Yes you are correct. Well done :rolleyes::rolleyes:
...Anything I have read or heard seemed to suggest it was only a small selection of the work force striking
If a large amount of the workforce go on a strike, but the employer brings in staff to cover their duties, it then technically means that this large amount is now a minority. I suppose Mr Binman is technically correct in saying it's a minority of the staff striking but that's only PR spin.All I said was that I believe Unions have to much control over our country
If the Government and employers did a better job of informing the workforce of their entitlements then Unions wouldn't have half as much influence as they do. Some of the most successful industries in Ireland aren't unionised (the computer industry for example) but I'd argue that this is because the average wage is higher and the workforce is highly educated and perhaps therefore more aware of their entitlements.0 -
Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 21860
If a large amount of the workforce go on a strike, but the employer brings in staff to cover their duties, it then technically means that this large amount is now a minority. I suppose Mr Binman is technically correct in saying it's a minority of the staff striking but that's only PR spin.
Well, this wasn't a binman PR spin as they refused to speak to the media I was reading/listening to.If the Government and employers did a better job of informing the workforce of their entitlements then Unions wouldn't have half as much influence as they do. Some of the most successful industries in Ireland aren't unionised (the computer industry for example) but I'd argue that this is because the average wage is higher and the workforce is highly educated and perhaps therefore more aware of their entitlements.
Well, thats perhaps the good side.0
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