Vote yes, sure you can trust all politicians..

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 3:49pm

ok, the original post was nonsensical

but people can join whenever and have any political allegiance, or none.

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 3:51pm

K-9 wrote: »

Can't see Cameron in a rush to hold it either if he PM.

he said he would, with conditions, and s attacking brown who said he would and he didn't

i am sure cameron does not want his party to collapse and be eternally discredited by going back on his word

K-9 · 24-06-2009 3:54pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

he said he would, with conditions, and s attacking brown who said he would and he didn't

i am sure cameron does not want his party to collapse and be eternally discredited by going back on his word

He risks splitting his party just by holding one.

Europe is usually high in UK matters around EU election time, but a small issue come General Election time.

the_dark_side · 24-06-2009 3:59pm

K-9 wrote: »

Can't see Cameron in a rush to hold it either if he was PM.

Not alone does he promise to hold a referrendum, but he promises to scrap the Lisbon Treaty if elected. (if there was to be an early election, which it doesnt look like now)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0114/1231738222173.html

the_dark_side · 24-06-2009 4:00pm

and only this month he said.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8078637.stm

K-9 · 24-06-2009 4:02pm

the_dark_side wrote: »

Not alone does he promise to hold a referrendum, but he promises to scrap the Lisbon Treaty if elected. (if there was to be an early election, which it doesnt look like now)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0114/1231738222173.html

the_dark_side wrote: »

and only this month he said.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8078637.stm

I've no doubt that is his policy in opposition, but the politics of Govt. may change that. Newsnight did a piece about it a few weeks back quoting Tory sources along the same lines. It isn't clear cut is all I'm saying.

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 4:02pm

K-9 wrote: »

He risks splitting his party just by holding one.

Europe is usually high in UK matters around EU election time, but a small issue come General Election time.

he promised the vote - his party knows this.

have you any qoutes or sources for anyone who has come out against his proposal...?

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 4:04pm

K-9 wrote: »

I've no doubt that is his policy in opposition, but the politics of Govt. may change that. Newsnight did a piece about it a few weeks back quoting Tory sources along the same lines. It isn't clear cut is all I'm saying.

well he wont have a govt for long then will he

K-9 · 24-06-2009 4:06pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

he promised the vote - his party knows this.

have you any qoutes or sources for anyone who has come out against his proposal...?

Well a Newsnight piece a few weeks back. I don't think its a huge stretch given Tory history to say the party could be split if it came to it in Govt.

the_dark_side · 24-06-2009 4:11pm

Is it not too big of an election issue to do a turn-around if the conservatives were voted in? The credability of the whole party would then, surely be in out the window, as the whole world looks on?

A decision to hold a referendum in Britain in October would cause a major headache for the Irish Government.A Conservative-led No campaign in Britain would play havoc with an Irish Yes campaign.

The question is, would Gordon Brown be voted out if there were to be a general election soon?

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 4:11pm

it could split

but he won have any credibilty if he doesnt run the vote, should the stipulations he stated not be met or wrapped up before then

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 4:13pm

the_dark_side wrote: »

The question is, would Gordon Brown be voted out if there were to be a general election soon?

going on the eu polls - very much so

but, that was eu elections and not mp elections - but it would make the likelihood of them being voted very very high

the_dark_side · 24-06-2009 4:19pm

Then.... would the Irish voter feel more confident in voting out the Lisbon Treaty, knowing that it would be voted against by our G8 neighbour, England, and we wouldnt be going to the polls in splendid isolation... I think it would change many Irish minds.

That coupled with the fact that Poland and the Czech Rep havent yet signed the treaty, and wont do so until they watch the outcome of the Irish vote, and .... whats unlikely to happen now, an early general election in the UK

turgon · 24-06-2009 4:26pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

what relevance does this have?

Your trying to draw people in with your "Im objective and look what Ive found thats bad, maybe we should vote no" stance. Its becoming increasingly obvious you had your mind up a long, long time ago.

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 4:28pm

okay

you can believe i am a magical princess fairy from the land of jamaraquay should you so believe............

========================
dont use qoutes - if they arent qoutes
ie - ''you are a liar'' - who said that no one - so dont use qoutes....

turgon · 24-06-2009 4:32pm

What are you on about? I quoted one of your posts, click the little arrow right of you name and it will link to the post I quoted from.

Scofflaw · 24-06-2009 4:39pm

turgon wrote: »

Your trying to draw people in with your "Im objective and look what Ive found thats bad, maybe we should vote no" stance. Its becoming increasingly obvious you had your mind up a long, long time ago.

I don't think that's actually the case - I think conchubar1 is being entirely honest about his position and his doubts.

Either way, I'm going to ask both of you to put down the weapons and take a deep breath.

moderately,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 4:50pm

turgon wrote: »

Your trying to draw people in with your "Im objective and look what Ive found thats bad, maybe we should vote no" stance. Its becoming increasingly obvious you had your mind up a long, long time ago.

where did i say the above - or even hint at it

the_dark_side · 24-06-2009 4:51pm

I am sorry for repeating myself here, but I feel that this is an important point from which I had little feedback (2 other boardies).

'A decision to hold a referendum in Britain in October would cause a major headache for the Irish Government. A Conservative-led No campaign in Britain could play havoc with an Irish Yes campaign.'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0114/1231738222173.html

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8078637.stm

My question was this:

...would the Irish voter feel more confident voting 'No' to the Lisbon Treaty, knowing that it was being voted against by our G8 neighbour, England (which would likely happen if there was a change of government), and we wouldnt be going to the polls in splendid isolation... I think it would change many Irish minds. No longer would we be like a lamb to the slaughter.

That coupled with the fact that Poland and the Czech Rep havent yet signed the treaty, and wont do so until they watch the outcome of the Irish vote, and .... whats unlikely to happen now, an early general election in the UK

*I posted this again as I thought it may have become lost in the thread (maybe I should start a new thread)*

Scofflaw · 24-06-2009 4:54pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

where did i say the above - or even hint at it

Ahem.

moderately,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 4:54pm

we should vote on the treaty - and the treaty alone

altho - if more people knew the above they wouldn't for yes on the lies of '' europe has done a lot for us, don't make it sad and angry''

PopeBuckfastXVI · 24-06-2009 4:54pm

the_dark_side wrote: »

I am sorry for repeating myself here, but I feel that this is an important point from which I had little feedback (2 other boardies).

'A decision to hold a referendum in Britain in October would cause a major headache for the Irish Government. A Conservative-led No campaign in Britain could play havoc with an Irish Yes campaign.'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0114/1231738222173.html

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8078637.stm

My question was this:

...would the Irish voter feel more confident voting 'No' to the Lisbon Treaty, knowing that it was being voted against by our G8 neighbour, England (which would likely happen if there was a change of government), and we wouldnt be going to the polls in splendid isolation... I think it would change many Irish minds. No longer would we be like a lamb to the slaughter.

That coupled with the fact that Poland and the Czech Rep havent yet signed the treaty, and wont do so until they watch the outcome of the Irish vote, and .... whats unlikely to happen now, an early general election in the UK

*I posted this again as I thought it may have become lost in the thread (maybe I should start a new thread)*

You'd have to ask someone who is planning to vote 'yes' because they don't want us to be the only country voting 'no'. I don't know that many of the active posters in this forum are planning to do that, if any. So you may not get an answer to your question, because you may be asking it of someone who doesn't exist.

Scofflaw · 24-06-2009 5:04pm

the_dark_side wrote: »

I am sorry for repeating myself here, but I feel that this is an important point from which I had little feedback (2 other boardies).

'A decision to hold a referendum in Britain in October would cause a major headache for the Irish Government. A Conservative-led No campaign in Britain could play havoc with an Irish Yes campaign.'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0114/1231738222173.html

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8078637.stm

My question was this:

...would the Irish voter feel more confident voting 'No' to the Lisbon Treaty, knowing that it was being voted against by our G8 neighbour, England (which would likely happen if there was a change of government), and we wouldnt be going to the polls in splendid isolation... I think it would change many Irish minds. No longer would we be like a lamb to the slaughter.

That coupled with the fact that Poland and the Czech Rep havent yet signed the treaty, and wont do so until they watch the outcome of the Irish vote, and .... whats unlikely to happen now, an early general election in the UK

*I posted this again as I thought it may have become lost in the thread (maybe I should start a new thread)*

If one genuinely believes that the UK will kill the Treaty, and one also believes that there would be some kind of 'EU revenge' if we kill the Treaty, then one should surely leave it to the UK to do it.

Frankly, I think the Tories are engaged in pure political stuntwork here. If we vote Yes, then the Czechs will ratify, as will the Poles. There's really very evidence to suggest that the German courts will have to overturn the German ratification, so Cameron's promise is essentially based entirely on the premise of a second Irish No. A second Irish No would kill the treaty anyway, so it's a completely cost-free exercise for the Tories.

cordially,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1 · 24-06-2009 5:05pm

indeed

they know it will be solved before the next general election

oscarBravo · 25-06-2009 10:18am

the_dark_side wrote: »

news just in

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0624/1224249417090.html

Some interesting wording:

...Mr Cameron demanded to know why Irish voters were “being forced to give their views twice” while the British people had not been asked for their opinion once.

If we have a referendum, we're being forced to give our views. If the UK have a referendum, they're being asked for their opinion.

Nice.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 25-06-2009 10:23am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Some interesting wording: If we have a referendum, we're being forced to give our views. If the UK have a referendum, they're being asked for their opinion.

Nice.

One eye across the water while he's talking I think. Yes British Conservative interference in this country has brought nothing but good things in the past of course...

O'Morris · 25-06-2009 10:36am

oscarBravo wrote:

If we have a referendum, we're being forced to give our views. If the UK have a referendum, they're being asked for their opinion.

It's not that we're being forced to give our views. It's that we're been forced to give our views a second time. We gave the wrong answer the first time and so we're being put under pressure to give the right one the next time.

oscarBravo · 25-06-2009 10:42am

O'Morris wrote: »

It's not that we're being forced to give our views. It's that we're been forced to give our views a second time.

Except that we're not. If you don't want to vote again, don't.

O'Morris · 25-06-2009 11:07am

oscarBravo wrote:

Except that we're not.

Yes we are. As an electorate we're being forced to give an answer to a question that we already answered.

oscarBravo wrote:

If you don't want to vote again, don't.

I'm not going to vote a second time. If a man's vote isn't respected the first he gives it, there's no reason to be believe it will be respected the second time.

cooperguy · 25-06-2009 11:26am

O'Morris wrote: »

Yes we are. As an electorate we're being forced to give an answer to a question that we already answered.

I'm not going to vote a second time. If a man's vote isn't respected the first he gives it, there's no reason to be believe it will be respected the second time.

How many times does this have to be said. People voted no. The government then tried to address some of the concerns of the voters and then put the treaty to the people again. How is this a bad thing?

Vote yes, sure you can trust all politicians..

Comments