Vote yes, sure you can trust all politicians..

conchubhar1

haha

and we were talking of hope in the other thread.... far off but not impossible i spose

Mario007

conchubhar1 wrote: »

haha

and we were talking of hope in the other thread.... far off but not impossible i spose

yeah or we could create a thread where people would sign for this idea and then send rte an email with a link to that thread...maybe it'll persuade them

conchubhar1

indeed - or use that one million voters thing from lisbon (should it pass)

but that would be useless to most countries as we are the only ones to vote on this idea

Mario007

conchubhar1 wrote: »

indeed - or use that one million voters thing from lisbon (should it pass)

but that would be useless to most countries as we are the only ones to vote on this idea

ya but you could get a forum on european treaties passed, i'm sure most of the europeans would like that...and it should be interesting...we shall have to wait and see if lisbon will be passed.

btw i just read this but under lisbon the commissioners numbers stay the same, whereas without lisbon they could decrease...isnt that weird?

conchubhar1

i think because out possistion they will stay the same - they were to decrease to below the number of 27 or 18...... ? possibly

there are or were a couple of scenarios

Mario007

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i think because out possistion they will stay the same - they were to decrease to below the number of 27 or 18...... ? possibly

there are or were a couple of scenarios

ya it basically will be like the first system proposed in lisbon, when there will be rotation of the commissioners...i'd like that actually...cos with every new member of eu you basically have to think off a new area for a new commissioner, which seems like forcing it a bit

conchubhar1

i would agree with your second point - when it gets to 30 or more members wowser!

but now - i like the 27 commissioners. again if unamity cant be reached then the proposal musnt have been good for all of europe and therefore shouldnt be passed

so the argument for a bloated commission now - is void in my opinion
altho if there is 30 or more posistions it would be getting dicey

but who is to say that as this happends new areas of concern or new areas that need discussion will not have been created or have a higher importance

skearon

conchubhar1 wrote: »

we are voting again because we voted the wrong way and the government wants it implemented

Along with the major opposition parties, business groups, employers, trade unions, farmers etc etc.

conchubhar1

indeed
and others dont - should i list them all

everyone ignores the ''voted wrong way part'' convenient

conchubhar1

indeed
and others dont - should i list them all

everyone ignores the ''voted wrong way part'' convenient

oscarBravo

conchubhar1 wrote: »

indeed
and others dont - should i list them all

Perhaps you should - then we can do a credibility comparison.

everyone ignores the ''voted wrong way part'' convenient

What "voted wrong way part"? The only people I've heard use that phrase are the "no" side.

conchubhar1

the govt wants a yes - they got a no

wrong answer - vote again..

Mario007

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i would agree with your second point - when it gets to 30 or more members wowser!

but now - i like the 27 commissioners. again if unamity cant be reached then the proposal musnt have been good for all of europe and therefore shouldnt be passed

so the argument for a bloated commission now - is void in my opinion
altho if there is 30 or more posistions it would be getting dicey

but who is to say that as this happends new areas of concern or new areas that need discussion will not have been created or have a higher importance

yeah but if there is a new area of concern it should be created, not waited for another country to join eu to creaty this new commissioner and vice versa.

conchubhar1 wrote: »

the govt wants a yes - they got a no

wrong answer - vote again..

thats an oversimplification, i would think...as i've pointed out its in the government program so they'll do whatever they can to get it passed. the 'voted wrong' part sounds a bit too demagogic, in my opinion...its a common practice, nothing to be making a big deal of

the_dark_side

it is quite simple... people will go out and vote in October, and will return a Yes vote, not because they will have suddenly understood the revised annexes of the Lisbon Treaty; not because they will have read in detail, the treaty itself.. but because they will be voting out of fear.

Fear of all the dire consequences that we are threatened with by voting no again... is this democratic? You decide...

netron

the_dark_side wrote: »

it is quite simple... people will go out and vote in October, and will return a Yes vote, not because they will have suddenly understood the revised annexes of the Lisbon Treaty; not because they will have read in detail, the treaty itself.. but because they will be voting out of fear.

Fear of all the dire consequences that we are threatened with by voting no again... is this democratic? You decide...

you should stick your post earlier
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60781955&postcount=104

in a blog.

mind if i do the same - i can repost on a few blogs i have access to?

quite honestly, its a tour de force and one the better arguments for a No vote. ( i've never bought into the "abortion conscription" bollocks - this is about something else ENTIRELY...)

netron

the_dark_side wrote: »

it is quite simple... people will go out and vote in October, and will return a Yes vote, not because they will have suddenly understood the revised annexes of the Lisbon Treaty; not because they will have read in detail, the treaty itself.. but because they will be voting out of fear.

Fear of all the dire consequences that we are threatened with by voting no again... is this democratic? You decide...

voting out of fear.

Haven't we Irish been here before? Home Rule Party vs Sinn Fein?

Being outside of the British Empire versus staying in it?

Mario007

the_dark_side wrote: »

it is quite simple... people will go out and vote in October, and will return a Yes vote, not because they will have suddenly understood the revised annexes of the Lisbon Treaty; not because they will have read in detail, the treaty itself.. but because they will be voting out of fear.

Fear of all the dire consequences that we are threatened with by voting no again... is this democratic? You decide...

oooh is that a gloomy scenario, now? the goverment and the eu will impose terror and fear on the citizens through media, i'm sure, to get lisbon passed...

come on man, dont be so naive. the anti-treaty side last time used the tactic of getting people to fear the treaty from obvious lies and populism. was that democratic? yes it was...because people could have decided to say yes, it was up to them. right now i'm sure a lot of people will be calling for a 'yes' to help us in recession, which is utter bullcrap to be frank, but people will go out and vote. they will probably vote 'yes', true. but why? because they are easily influced by demagogy and populism- the one flaw of democracy.
but this isnt some sort of dictatorial thing...did france or holland get punished for rejecting the constitution? no! if ireland says no the second time then thats it, the lisbon treaty is dead...which would, of course, be a damn shame. the second referendum is a completely legal and democratic tool...i've pointed that out before. now if people have any sense of values those 800 000 will vote no again...the question is what about the undecided?

tonycascarino

In regards to the newly formed Pro-Lisbon group, to the best of my knowledge isn't David Evans (The Edge) a tax exile and Robbie Keane employed by a foreign plc to play association football in another country. None of them pay tax here or contribute to society here except for the sales of their products and the taxes garnered from sale of same items. And we used to criticise Declan Ganley? You couldn't make it up.

netron

Mario007 wrote: »

oooh is that a gloomy scenario, now? the goverment and the eu will impose terror and fear on the citizens through media, i'm sure, to get lisbon passed...

come on man, dont be so naive. the anti-treaty side last time used the tactic of getting people to fear the treaty from obvious lies and populism. was that democratic? yes it was...because people could have decided to say yes, it was up to them. right now i'm sure a lot of people will be calling for a 'yes' to help us in recession, which is utter bullcrap to be frank, but people will go out and vote. they will probably vote 'yes', true. but why? because they are easily influced by demagogy and populism- the one flaw of democracy.
but this isnt some sort of dictatorial thing...did france or holland get punished for rejecting the constitution? no! if ireland says no the second time then thats it, the lisbon treaty is dead...which would, of course, be a damn shame. the second referendum is a completely legal and democratic tool...i've pointed that out before. now if people have any sense of values those 800 000 will vote no again...the question is what about the undecided?

I voted NO and a lot of people I know voted NO for absolutley NONE of the reasons of the No campaigners.

My father , as one example - a trade unionist all his life. Labour Party member. Former Workers Party/ Democratic Left.

You would think he'd vote Yes , being as De Rossa is such a EU advocate - he voted No.

Asked him afterwards (as I was seriously surprised at it ) - simple answer - lack of democracy.

netron

tonycascarino wrote: »

In regards to the newly formed Pro-Lisbon group, to the best of my knowledge isn't David Evans (The Edge) a tax exile and Robbie Keane employed by a foreign plc to play association football in another country. None of them pay tax here or contribute to society here except for the sales of their products and the taxes garnered from sale of same items. And we used to criticise Declan Ganley? You couldn't make it up.

Yes , The Edge is a tax exile in terms of U2 royalties.

HOWEVER - to be 100 per cent fair to the guy, U2 is a democracy, so if the other 3 voted to move royalty operations to Holland, and he voted not to , he would have been outvoted.

But in terms of residency, he still lives in Ireland. As do the other band members.

And lets be honest - with their money , they could easily f**k off to the Cayman Islands if they wanted to.

skearon

netron wrote: »

Asked him afterwards (as I was seriously surprised at it ) - simple answer - lack of democracy.

LACK of democracy?? If he is really concerned about that he should Vote Yes as Lisbon gives more power to the directly elected EU Parliment, to the directly elected national parliments, and to the citizens themselves.

netron

tonycascarino wrote: »

In regards to the newly formed Pro-Lisbon group, to the best of my knowledge isn't David Evans (The Edge) a tax exile and Robbie Keane employed by a foreign plc to play association football in another country. None of them pay tax here or contribute to society here except for the sales of their products and the taxes garnered from sale of same items. And we used to criticise Declan Ganley? You couldn't make it up.

A bigger question is - why is Robbie Keane getting involved in something political? He's just a footballer.

Now, if i am not mistaken , footballers generally have the IQ level of an cricket.

Which leads me to believe that Mr Keane actually hasnt read the Treaty that he is so in favour of.

I think the message is - "look we've got a celeb! ignore the treaty - just say Yes - cos the dumb celeb says so!"

I also note that Ben Dunne has switched sides.

One wonders what pressure he was put under to do so.

netron

skearon wrote: »

LACK of democracy?? If he is really concerned about that he should Vote Yes as Lisbon gives more power to the directly elected EU Parliment, to the directly elected national parliments, and to the citizens themselves.

What powers exactly?
Does the EU Parliament get the ability to enact legislation via Lisbon?

The EU Commission will remain unelected.

The EU President will be unelected.

And the EU Foreign Minister will also be unelected.

RandomName2

conchubhar1 wrote: »

the govt wants a yes - they got a no

wrong answer - vote again..

And if one believes that the EU Constitution and Lisbon Treaty are essentially the same (which I know some people, for some reason, don't)... that's 3 referendum defeats. A probable fourth if the UK gets a vote (which ain't ever gonna happen).

There is a definite antagonism against democracy by the more hard-line 'yes' campaigners; which I think is irrespective of whether or not the electorate return a 'yes' or 'no' vote. Lisbon is supposed to make the eu more democratic - democratic means and undemocratic method? Sounds a bit unlikely (but- what the hey! I'll take their word for it).

The undemocratic agenda is occasionally dressed up in the argument of 'representaive democracy', particularly in this forum. Hitler was an example of representative democracy - sorry, I'm not supposed to say that as Hitler produces too emotive a response.

It is basically the argument that you elect politicans (or whatever Joe Bloggs calls himself a politician) and because they are elected they can do whatever they choose - even if it means rewritting the constitution. They would pobably drop Lisbon and rename it and re-run it (with a few tweaks) like they did the Consitution - but they could never get around the fact that Ireland gets a vote. I wonder when the Irish vote clause gets removed internally by Fianna Fail or Fine Gael in an overturn of Crotty VS An Taoiseach? Will this be the last time we ever get to vote on an EU treaty? Hey that's a thought! Lisbon II the last vote ever. When's the last time Germans got to vote on an EU treaty ?

Mario007

netron wrote: »

What powers exactly?
Does the EU Parliament get the ability to enact legislation via Lisbon?

The EU Commission will remain unelected.

The EU President will be unelected.

And the EU Foreign Minister will also be unelected.

i'm not sure about the eu parliament...but i think its very close to having the power to have a legislation created and passed by the MEPs...will check that out and come back

eu commission will be elected...i cant stand this kind of demagogy...a commissioner is elected by the dail and seanad, who represent irish people...then it has to go through the eu parliament who needs to elect him, eu parliament represents eu citizens, and this all then has to be approved by the european council...which represents the sovereign states...a lot of electing there.

eu president? yet again, it will be elected by the eu parliament and the european council. is the taioseach elected undemocratically just cos the dail votes him into power?
same goes for the foreign minister.

honestly the people that brag about lack of democracy and dont know the facts are really getting on my nerves now

Mario007

netron wrote: »

I voted NO and a lot of people I know voted NO for absolutley NONE of the reasons of the No campaigners.

My father , as one example - a trade unionist all his life. Labour Party member. Former Workers Party/ Democratic Left.

You would think he'd vote Yes , being as De Rossa is such a EU advocate - he voted No.

Asked him afterwards (as I was seriously surprised at it ) - simple answer - lack of democracy.

to be fair the workers party is far more left than the labour party and they are actually opposed to the lisbon treaty. eu socialist are pro the united left and nordic green are against it...
with regards to the lack of democracy i've answered that in the post above

K-9

netron wrote: »

A bigger question is - why is Robbie Keane getting involved in something political? He's just a footballer.

Now, if i am not mistaken , footballers generally have the IQ level of an cricket.

Which leads me to believe that Mr Keane actually hasnt read the Treaty that he is so in favour of.

I think the message is - "look we've got a celeb! ignore the treaty - just say Yes - cos the dumb celeb says so!"

I also note that Ben Dunne has switched sides.

One wonders what pressure he was put under to do so.

That's a bit unfair on Keane, he could be the exception to the stereotype!

netron wrote: »

The EU Commission will remain unelected.

The EU President will be unelected.

And the EU Foreign Minister will also be unelected.

They are unelected for good reasons.

oscarBravo

netron wrote: »

I also note that Ben Dunne has switched sides.

One wonders what pressure he was put under to do so.

Because nobody in the history of the world has ever, ever changed their mind about anything without being put under pressure (by whom? how?) to do so.

the_dark_side

K-9 wrote: »

That's a bit unfair on Keane, he could be the exception to the stereotype!



They are unelected for good reasons.

Could you expand a bit on this please...

K-9

the_dark_side wrote: »

Could you expand a bit on this please...

OK, can you imagine legitimate reasons why they aren't elected?