Budget cap remains for 2010

vectra

The FIA has elected to proceed with its plans for a €45m budget cap next season. Despite much wrangling between teams and the sport's governing body over past months, the latter has finally decided that - after a meeting with team representatives on Monday - regulations surrounding the scheme will not be modified.

With four current teams - BMW, Brawn, McLaren and Toyota - still under conditional entries for 2010, responses from FOTA (Formula One Teams Association) remain to be see; having met with financial experts from FOTA on Monday, the FIA opted to keep the spending limit in place after describing that the teams' fiscal delegates were 'not prepared to discuss the regulation at all' as a result of being granted no permission to do so.


The FIA statement reads:


'As a result, the meeting could not achieve its purpose of comparing the FIA's rules with the FOTA proposals with a view to finding a common position.

In default of a proper dialogue, the FOTA financial proposals were discussed but it became clear that these would not be capable of limiting the expenditure of a team which had the resources to outspend its competitors. Another financial arms race would then be inevitable.

The FIA Financial Regulations therefore remain as published.'

smooch71

Never really got into Nascar.

Looks like I'm going to have to start..

vectra

smooch71 wrote: »

Never really got into Nascar.

Looks like I'm going to have to start..

BTCC for me

EvilMonkey

FOTA should pull out now and start all the legal proceedings as soon as possible so they can get on with entering other series or setting up their own. Why continue and make Bernie money?

RIP F1 :mad:

Frank Bullitt

This really looks like the end.

I can only see this getting worse and the FIA will be help responsible for it by the public,not to mention the sponsors of the teams and tracks.

What a farce.

afatbollix

might be for teh best so??? the wrc has gone to ****e... but theres the IRC is now teh seris to watch.. ps a irish guy is leading at the mo so an other reason to watch...

i think they will be getting to much for there budget cap.. they can easily cap there budgets at 45 million as there are still allowed spend as much as they want on hospitality and research and development.. and thats were most of the budgets go...

smellslikeshoes

I still don't see teams leaving F1 to be honest, the work involved in putting together a new championship would be insane. I still believe that there will be a back down of some sort on one side or another.

Frank Bullitt

What will happen to this season as well if the teams decide that a new series is the only way? Halt development on the '09 cars, so they can get ready for the new one?I think so.

amacachi

My whole world is crashing around me.

amacachi

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I told you not to build your house out of F1 car parts but you didnt listen

I thought those big V10s would last forever.

Does anyone know exactly how the budget cap is meant to work? I mean surely most teams get more than the 45million in prize money.

Anyway, I think everyone's worrying a little too much about the whole tiff tbh.

TheChrisD

So, soon the IndyCars will be the pinnacle of open-wheel motorsport?

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

Does anyone know exactly how the budget cap is meant to work?

Yes,
They can now only spend 45 million insteads of 400 million

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Yes,
They can now only spend 45 million insteads of 400 million

So they all have to make a profit? Even if they get more than 45 million purely in prize money?

EvilMonkey

Some things like driver salaries and promotional stuff are not included the FIA are saying the big teams could spend €200M a year and still be under the €45M budget cap. €45M is basically for building/developing the car and R&D.

One of the reasons i think its stupid they should be aloud spend what they like on building/developing the car and new technology and restricted on what they can spend on marketing and all that other bull****.

The budget cap will lead to allot of creative accountancy and the FIA wont be able to police it.

The other thing i dont get is whats the point in having technical freedoms if you cant spend the money in researching or testing new ideas developments.

Anyway i think this has gone beyond the budget caps and into a battle for control of F1 and i cant see the FIA or FOM giving up any control to FOTA which is why i cant see an agreement been reached.

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

So they all have to make a profit? Even if they get more than 45 million purely in prize money?

Possibly

Slutmonkey57b

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Anyway i think this has gone beyond the budget caps and into a battle for control of F1 and i cant see the FIA or FOM giving up any control to FOTA which is why i cant see an agreement been reached.

Exactly. The discussions on cost reductions reached the stage where both sides basically were saying the same thing. The only thing that wasn't agreed was that FOTA said "Let's not have some knob end making **** up as he goes along and running the place like a personal fiefdom".

The FIA press release today boils down to
"They're trying to tell us what to do! Well nya nya it's MY ball, we did all the work, not those stupid drivers and cars and tracks and races. US! The admin staff!"

Oblomov

The statement from the FIA reads slightly different, the underlying theme is that the teams come and go and the FIA remains to give the 'sport' stability.

The FIA & FOM have achieved a world recognition for F1 racing and have seen a number of teams take part and leave, with little or no acknowledgement to the organising body. Honda being a prime example.

Oblomov

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/Documents/1-hp-pdc.pdf

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/Documents/4-ldm-mm.pdf

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/Documents/5-mm-to-ldm.pdf

Slutmonkey57b

People really believe that the FIA are responsible for the success of F1?

Not Senna?
Or Schumacher?
Stewart? Hill? Clark? Mansell? Prost? Lauda? Hunt? Murray Walker? McLaren? Ferrari? Williams? Lotus?

People haven't tuned in over the years thinking "Gosh I can't wait to see what sort of administrative leap Max Mosely is going to make this week".

The only source of *instability* over the past 10-15 years has been the Bernie and Max show - switching regs, introducing stupid limitations (v12>v10>v8, grooved tyres, aerodynamic rules they can't even understand much less regulate), and playing "who's going to get to keep their GP race this year?" "who wants to give uncle Bernie more money then?"

The farce of losing Imola, Magny-cours, Hockenheim, Silverstone (You brits won't get a GP if Bernie's not happy, so nya) and the rest in favour of ghost town crap circuits in the middle of nowhere because the developers are cutting Bernie in on more money....

FOTA have taken too long to get the the point they're at now. They should have done this years ago. But it's entirely Max and Bernies fault that we, the supporters, have gotten so screwed over.

EvilMonkey

Oblomov wrote: »

The statement from the FIA reads slightly different, the underlying theme is that the teams come and go and the FIA remains to give the 'sport' stability.

The FIA & FOM have achieved a world recognition for F1 racing and have seen a number of teams take part and leave, with little or no acknowledgement to the organising body. Honda being a prime example.

Honda didn't just leave they even payed for the team to compete this year?
Actually most of the teams are the same as 10 years ago some just have different owners/names.
How dose the sport have stability when the rules are changed on a whim by Max or Bernie?

I would argue that its the teams, drivers, marshals, circuit owners/managers/organisers, stewards that have worked the hardest at getting "FIA & FOM world recognition for F1".

Oblomov wrote: »

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/Documents/1-hp-pdc.pdf

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/Documents/4-ldm-mm.pdf

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/Documents/5-mm-to-ldm.pdf

Red these earlier whats the point?
Surly if all the teams sign up to a Concorde agreement(like they said they would if the fia dropped its 2010 regulations) then they will all have to compete until the agreement expires? Achieving stability in teams as well as the rules.

Slutmonkey57b

Two things that are telling and perplexing in turn:

1) There is NO metion of the FIA's statement on the F1 website. Bernie is keeping schtum.

2) There is nothing on the BBC website either (unless their UK readers are getting acres of coverage on the subject which is possible). Maybe they just don't know what to think at this stage.

EvilMonkey

Interesting article on where the money goes in F1 link
Maybe if more money went to the teams their would be no need for budget caps, of course thats partly the reason Bernie doesn't want things to change.

Another article 10 questions for Max

smooch71

TheChrisD wrote: »

So, soon the IndyCars will be the pinnacle of open-wheel motorsport?

Not since 1995 I'm afraid.

Very relevant to bring up Indycars though because they went through a split in 1996 forming two different championships and the majority of fans ultimately stopped watching both and turned to Nascar instead, making Nascar the biggest form of motorsport in the US.
When they finally both "merged" again last year, the fans and sponsorship money was gone.

If Formula 1 splits it will be history repeating itself.

smooch71

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5385168,00.html

Looks like FOTA are offering and olive branch.

The FIA will see this as a victory I suppose.

kaizersoze

Hah. FOTA bluff has been called and now they're sh!tting bricks.
Max really has them by the gonads now.

Max response:

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090617162822.shtml

smooch71

kaizersoze wrote: »

Hah. FOTA bluff has been called and now they're sh!tting bricks.
Max really has them by the gonads now.

Max response:

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090617162822.shtml

You almost sound pleased.

kaizersoze

smooch71 wrote: »

You almost sound pleased.

Nah. Neither pleased nor disappointed but from the outset of the row I couldn't see it ending in FOTAs favour. They were heading up a dead end street being led by Ferrari.

vectra

kaizersoze wrote: »

Nah. Neither pleased nor disappointed but from the outset of the row I couldn't see it ending in FOTAs favour. They were heading up a dead end street being led by Ferrari.

I didnt realise it was over yet though?

And FOTA is FOTA
Where does the Ferrari leadership come into play?
One Max is enough in this sport

smooch71

Though I hate to admit it, and I don't want to see a breakaway series, I feel FOTA will blink first.

And Max and the FIA will steamroll any damn thing they like through in the future.

The very fact alone that Prodrive and Lola will not be on the grid, and the favouritism shown to the Cosworth teams suggests the FIA should not be in a position to call all the shots. If FOTA give in now they will have lost all chance of a say in the governance of F1.

It's just a pity that some of the top level directors of the FIA didn't move to have Max removed from office but then they probably don't understand or realise the damage they've done any more than he does.

Iron Hide

I wonder if the FIA allowing 3 Cosworth powered teams in might be them planning for a future single engined F1 season and next season is almost like a test run for Cosworth.... apart from Ferrari, Toyota, BMW and Renault, all the other teams rely on customer engines, and gone are the days when anyone and everyone (judd, ilmor, yamaha), produced F1 engines, so basically Red Bull, Williams, etc have to rely on the gratitude of Ferrari, Toyota, Renault or BMW to supply them engines.
If the factory teams don't, then Cosworth will probably be the only option. This is only a theory, and it probably wont happen, but the way the FIA are going, god knows whats gonna happen,
TurboDiesel F1 cars or something, start of every race would be lost in a plume of black smoke..

Slutmonkey57b

Another telling comment is the FIA's statement that Cosworth won't be forced to detune their 2006 spec engines because "They're not able to get the work done in time". If they're not able to get the job done, WHY are they being approved?

FOTA's problem right now is that the FIA and Max are ripping their own arguments apart, and aren't being pulled up on it. FOTA are going to blink and the result will be a destroyed sport.

Iron Hide

True, the development freeze came in 2007. As far as i reckon then the Cozzies have about a 30hp advantage over the 09 engines

EvilMonkey

I see Lola pulled themselves off the FIAs reserve list, maybe they weren't too happy at been used by the FIA as a pawn in this battle with FOTA.

Irishshin

I think I read somewhere max will accept a €100million budget cap for next year?

If so I think the Fota teams should enter F1 next year and start now with planning a breakaway series to start in 11. Give them extra time to put the breakaway into action.
It looks like Max does now have the upper hand.

EvilMonkey

Red Storm wrote: »

True, the development freeze came in 2007. As far as i reckon then the Cozzies have about a 30hp advantage over the 09 engines

So they are intentionally giving the new teams a BHP advantage. How long dose it take to load a new map to the ecu limiting the RPM? Actually didn't F1 engine's regularly blow up a few years ago when they were unrestricted, how will Cosworth make them last 2 - 3 races without limiting the RPM.

vectra

kaizersoze wrote: »

Hah. FOTA bluff has been called and now they're sh!tting bricks.
Max really has them by the gonads now.

Doesnt look that way now does it Mr. Laughy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jun/18/fia-formula-one-teams-budget-cap

Formula one's governing body, the FIA, has offered to let teams use a "reputable auditor", should they accept a budget cap next season. The teams had indicated yesterday that they would be prepared to accept such an independent auditor.

Five of the existing formula one teams – leaders Brawn, BMW-Sauber, McLaren, Renault and Toyota – risk exclusion from the 2010 championship if they do not sign up by tomorrow evening's deadline. Should they fail to do so, there is a risk of teams setting up a rival series. The champions, Ferrari, and the two Red Bull teams are also at loggerheads with the FIA.

In a letter to the five provisional teams, the FIA president, Max Mosley, set out the terms of engagement that effectively set in stone agreements reached before talks broke down this week.

Changes to the published regulations included substituting an optional £40m budget cap with a €100m (£85.8m) one for 2010, that figure dropping to €45m (£38.6m) in 2011.

"There will be self-reporting of compliance using a reputable auditor," Mosley added, in a move calculated to overcome the manufacturers' resistance to opening their books to the governing body. "Any suspicions of breach would be investigated by a mutually acceptable auditor of suitable standing."

Mosley asked the teams to agree in return to be bound by the terms of the 1998 Concorde Agreement that has now expired. The agreement would then bind them until the end of 2014 or until all teams, the FIA and commercial rights holder signed a new agreement.

"Subject to approval by the FIA's world motor sports council, and by teams already having had their entries... accepted, it is intended that certain amendments... will be made to the 2010 formula one sporting and technical regulations forthwith," said Mosley.

He added that the amendments were those agreed between the FIA and Fota (the Formula One Teams' Association) at a meeting on 11 June.

Mosley added that the FIA was "not averse" to the teams' proposals concerning the International Court of Appeal and was prepared to discuss that and associated changes to the statutes of the governing body.

An appendix to the letter detailed changes to the published regulations, including sticking with the 2009 rules in several areas. That included engines, although Mosley said the Cosworth unit to be used by at least three new teams would remain unrestricted for 2010 only.

The 2009 rules will continue to apply to gearboxes, testing, tyre warmers and the movable front wing. Four-wheel drive will not be allowed and the Kers energy recovery system cannot be connected to the front wheels.

EvilMonkey

vectra wrote: »

Doesnt look that way now does it Mr. Laughy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jun/18/fia-formula-one-teams-budget-cap

The problem is they have to sign up to the new rules first, then they can "discuss" the changes, Once there signed up FIA can make some small changes and tell FOTA to **** off about the bigger governing issues/New Concorde agreement.

kaizersoze

vectra wrote: »

Doesnt look that way now does it Mr. Laughy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jun/18/fia-formula-one-teams-budget-cap

I fail to see your point Mr. di Montezemolo.:p

FOTA will still have to bend over (albeit this time without a hidden camera present).

• The teams still have to agree to the new regs.

• They will be extending the old concorde agreement and then trying to renegotiate it (see EvilMonkeys point above).

• These concessions were already offered to them and agreed.

• They'll now be tied in till 2014 instead of 2012. Open to correction on the 2012 bit, maybe it was only 2010.

• Even though the teams offered yesterday to hand financial monitoring over to a 'independent' auditor it was to be one of their choosing. Doesn't look like Max said anything about the teams choosing the auditor.

• They still have to agree to a fixed figure budget cap which they, and particularly Ferrari, were vehmently opposed to.

• No additional control of the sport.

• No additional share of the revenue.

Doesn't look like a FOTA win to me. What it looks like to me is the FIA giving the impression that they are prepared to compromise.

vectra

kaizersoze wrote: »

I fail to see your point Mr. di Montezemolo.:p

Well Mr.Max Slappy,

Did you miss this point

Changes to the published regulations included substituting an optional £40m budget cap with a €100m (£85.8m) one for 2010, that figure dropping to €45m (£38.6m) in 2011.

FIA bending over now maybe?

Grim.

vectra wrote: »

Changes to the published regulations included substituting an optional £40m budget cap with a €100m (£85.8m) one for 2010, that figure dropping to €45m (£38.6m) in 2011.

fia offered this before monaco

kaizersoze

vectra wrote: »

Well Mr.Max Slappy,

Did you miss this point



FIA bending over now maybe?

The softening of the budget cap too 100mil had already been offered to and agreed to by the teams a week or more ago.

autoweek.com on 11/06/09 wrote:

In the letter, Mosley confirms that in 2010, a higher-than-planned cost cap--to a maximum of e 100 million, or about $140 million at current exchange rates--would have to be in place. The cap would be then reduced to the published figure of £40 million, or $65.8 million, in the second season.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090611/F1/906119995

There's nothing new in what Max offered the teams today.

EvilMonkey

vectra wrote: »

Well Mr.Max Slappy,

Did you miss this point



FIA bending over now maybe?

The only people Max bends over for are female nazi interrogators :pac:

Slutmonkey57b

Max's latest letter does nothing more than reprint the suggestions FOTA already made, present them as his own "compromise" ideas, and attempt to attach blame to other parties for the mess he needlessly created.

vectra

kaizersoze wrote: »

The softening of the budget cap too 100mil had already been offered to and agreed to by the teams a week or more ago.

So,
Who broke first then?:D

Slutmonkey57b

The 100 mil cap came from FOTA's demands that it be put off.
The suggestion that new teams could be given non performance parts came from FOTA.
The idea that startup teams could co-locate came from FOTA.
The demand for independent (non-FIA) external auditors, or a standard auditing scheme, came from FOTA.

Max's "contribution" to the whole thing is to be a capricious, contradictory, illogical, unreliable waste of time, air and space in the whole arrangement.

Don't forget that in 2008 the FIA demanded an "Entry fee" of $48million for new teams - almost the same as the cap that they are demanding current teams agree to run their operations for a year. The FIA are demanding "cost reductions" from the team in "unsustainable" times at the same moment that they are hiking up prices, costs, fees for tracks, sponsors, drivers, and broadcasters.
It's beyond bull****.

kaizersoze

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Max's latest letter does nothing more than reprint the suggestions FOTA already made, present them as his own "compromise" ideas, and attempt to attach blame to other parties for the mess he needlessly created.

vectra wrote: »

So,
Who broke first then?:D

On that particular point Max did I suppose but I'm sure if I trawled back far enough I'd find the point where FOTA produced the....




I've always seen this row as a power/money struggle though and from that point of view FOTA were never going to win.

vectra

kaizersoze wrote: »

On that particular point Max did I suppose but I'm sure if I trawled back far enough I'd find the point where FOTA produced the....




I've always seen this row as a power/money struggle though and from that point of view FOTA were never going to win.

Fota are winning as far as I can see
The Main onbective left to sort was the cap.
Now Max is backing down
Max is a twat
Get rid of him I say.
After all
he sits on his sore ar$e in an office and dictates
The teams and drivers are the ones that put on the show.

Slutmonkey57b

vectra wrote: »

After all
he sits on his sore ar$e in an office and dictates
The teams and drivers are the ones that put on the show.

Exactly. And he has sat and dictated exactly how this has gone start to finish.
It doesn't matter if the sport is being dragged through the mud. It doesn't matter if the whole thing is pointless. The budget cap was sorted out weeks ago. This is all about Max seeing how far he can push FOTA and whether he can break it apart. He's already broken off Williams and Force India. Brawn, Red Bull, Ferrari are his next targets. BMW and Toyota he figures are leaving anyway. McLaren he wants rid of. That's all she wrote. FOTA ****ed up by leaving Max to fill the air with noises for so long without responding, and they have nowhere near enough time to set up a replacement series now.

If they agree to remove the conditional entries and sign up for Concorde, Max will simply slap down any changes, ignore subsequent requests to revisit the rules, keep the existing corcorde until 2014 and leave the teams broke and penniless at the end of it. Problem is FOTA have nowhere else to go and don't have to balls to tell him to stuff it. Max is unsackable, as the sex scandal last year proved.

EvilMonkey

I think the main thing was stability and a say in the rules the budget cap is a side issue.

kaizersoze

Sorry lads.
Not for the first time I've been found to be talking out of my ar$e.:o

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055597410

Oblomov

Formula One was facing the biggest crisis in its history last night after the majority of the teams decided to begin preparations for an alternative championship.

On the eve of the British Grand Prix at Silverstone, and in a move that could signal the end of the hegemony over motor sport’s pinnacle category by Bernie Ecclestone, the commercial rights-holder, and Max Mosley, the president of the FIA, the teams decided that they had no alternative but to set up their own series.

After meeting at the headquarters of the Renault team near Oxford, the Formula One Teams Association (Fota) said that it had genuinely sought a compromise solution in the row with the FIA over budget capping for next season, but made no progress.

“The teams therefore have no alternative other than to commence the preparation for a new championship which reflects the values of its participants and partners,” Fota said in a statement.

“This series will have transparent governance, one set of regulations, encourage more entrants and listen to the wishes of the fans.”

In an ambitious vision for the future of its alternative championship, it appeared to predict that most of the top drivers and stakeholders would take part.

“The major drivers, stars, brands, sponsors, promoters and companies historically associated with the highest level of motor sport will all feature in this new series,” Fota insisted.

The teams involved in the breakaway are Ferrari, McLaren-Mercedes, BMW Sauber, Renault, Toyota, Brawn GP, Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Between them they employ almost all the top drivers in the sport, among them Britain’s world champion, Lewis Hamilton, and this season’s championship leader, Jenson Button.

The row over budget capping may be the immediate cause of the split, but there is no doubt that the rebellion by the teams also reflects their collective loss of patience with Mosley.

Privately, team principals have spoken of how they do not want their companies to be in any way beholden to an individual whom they do not trust. Mosley is regarded as dictatorial in style, wilful and meddling, and the breakaway is one way for the teams to escape his influence.

In Formula One politics, grand gestures often lead to little ultimate change. This time the teams have gone out on a limb and they are likely to face enormous obstacles in trying to set up a series in the teeth of Ecclestone and Mosley’s opposition.