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7 days or 7 billion years?
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There is no proof. I believe that God most likely exists due to indication. I've recommended some books and I've even quoted from one if you actually want to investigate the case for faith or the case for belief in God.
I will read the anything that has a case for Faith. I, as with most Atheist are open to the possibility of a God but we require solid evidence. I would accept any of the following methods, Sight, Sound, Touch, Smell, Taste. As I said before you could put a case for the existence of anything, Fairys, goblins, unicorns, leprachauns etc etc, most rational people do not beleive is thoes creatures, yet millions choose to beleive in a God. I think its down to PR and marketing and mans gulability. It's a bit like the info-ads on late night TV. There is always the latest machine to give you the perfect body. People buy these machines because they believe it will give them the same body as the models on the ads. In reality, they buy it, see no results and after a few weeks it ends up in the attic or in the shed and regret wasting their time, effort and money with it. The mentality behind Christianity is the same. You buy into an idea that by living a Christian life you will go into Heaven. The thing is, results aren't know until after death by which time it is too late for a refund.
The exercise machine ads play on peoples fears of being perceived as fat/unhealthy.
Christianity/Religion plays on peoples fear of death.I haven't referenced it as proof of God's existence. The Bible isn't proof, it's a hypothesis to be proven or to be indicated for. You cannot substantiate the Bible with the Bible. I quoted it when people were discussing about God's nature. To discuss God's nature one has to assume that God exists. During the problem of evil that is why I used the text.
So is it a book of Fact or a book of Fiction? Does it have any bases in Reality at all. Or, was it written by Man saying I think this is what God is about?
It says God is omnisent. He knows everything that was, is and ever will be. Yet he floods the earth in a hissy fit and kills everybody when he is not happy with them save for Noah and the Ark. He saves Lot even though he offered up his daughter for rape and turns his wife to salt for looking back. He says that thoes that work on the Sabath should be killed. He says that Childern that disobey their parents should be killed, you have to admitt none of this is a good case for worshiping let alone believing in God.
You can't just pick a choose to live by only certain parts of the Bible. God, Christians believe is in falable, you can't just pick and choose what to follow.
If you choose to live by what you think is the word of God, Love thy Neighbour, Keep holy the Sabath, Honor thy Father and Mother becasue its good and by following this you will join Jesus in Heaven.
Could I also join you in Heaven by going into a supermaket on a Sunday and killing anybody that is working? or by killing any children I see sinning? After all I only followed what was Gods word in the Bible.The Bible is divinely inspired in Christian belief. It does include some passages with dialogue between God and man. However by and large the Bible is a book about God, and about how God has impacted peoples lives. The Bible was written by prophets but inspired by God would be the short hand answer..
Prophets are Men, Men are not divine and make mistakes, Therefore the bible is not a divine scripture.
If I write a book about Unicorns it does not make it possible that they could have existed.
If I write a book about Dinosaurs I can back it up with fossil evidence. There for prove they existed.I am to follow the commandments as best as I can. However nobody is saved by God by making sure to follow every last commandment. It isn't possible, and we can mess up a lot. I would view the moral commandments of Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and the Jewish prophets to be a standard that we should aim to reach not that anyone can fully 100% reach that standard.
So why follow if you can't reach 100%. Why not live the life you want. Flaunt the commandments and then repent. the results would be the same.
If you are tuly sorry there is no punishment, its too easy an answer.
Following the laws of the land, if you commit a crime you are punished.
Pleading forgiveness may reduce you sentence but still have to serve a punishment.
Christianity has no consiquence for evil acts as long as you are sorry for what you did. This does not wash with me.Nobody is "good" because of following all the commandments. People are good because their sins have been wiped clean by Jesus Christ in God's eyes. We are made righteous by faith and through God's grace rather than our own works.
I think People are good because the beleive what goes around comes around. It feels good to help out fellow man.0 -
As I said before you could put a case for the existence of anything, Fairys, goblins, unicorns, leprachauns etc etc, most rational people do not beleive is thoes creatures, yet millions choose to beleive in a God.
It's far more rational to believe in God than in fairies or any of the other things that you have listed given the condition of the world and the way that humanity operates.I think its down to PR and marketing and mans gulability.
Of course I would disagree with you here.It's a bit like the info-ads on late night TV. There is always the latest machine to give you the perfect body.
I don't follow God because I aim for perfection. I personally don't want to be perfect, and I don't feel a need to follow God for glory or recognition. For me following God is merely recognising what is reality and choosing to be thankful for what God has given me.People buy these machines because they believe it will give them the same body as the models on the ads.
I don't want to be perfect in either body or mind, I just want to live as best as I can according to God and to make this world a better place before I die.The mentality behind Christianity is the same. You buy into an idea that by living a Christian life you will go into Heaven. The thing is, results aren't know until after death by which time it is too late for a refund.
The exercise machine ads play on peoples fears of being perceived as fat/unhealthy.
Christianity/Religion plays on peoples fear of death.
I don't follow Christianity for heaven or hell. I follow Christianity for the here and now. I wrote this in a post on another forum a few months ago. Atheists tend to think that Christianity is based on the notion of heaven or hell. I'm far far more concerned with what Christianity can do for me and others on this world than what it will do in the next.
Check out this link:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60068219So is it a book of Fact or a book of Fiction? Does it have any bases in Reality at all. Or, was it written by Man saying I think this is what God is about?
I believe it is true. Nobody can genuinely answer whether or not the Bible is fact or fiction. I hold the view that it is most likely factual. However there is debate over that. If you call something factual that means that it is universally accepted or almost universally accepted as fact. Hence why I would recommend these terms are left out of an argument about religion.It says God is omnisent. He knows everything that was, is and ever will be. Yet he floods the earth in a hissy fit and kills everybody when he is not happy with them save for Noah and the Ark. He saves Lot even though he offered up his daughter for rape and turns his wife to salt for looking back. He says that thoes that work on the Sabath should be killed. He says that Childern that disobey their parents should be killed, you have to admitt none of this is a good case for worshiping let alone believing in God.
I don't see how that is a hissy fit. The Jewish Torah is a system of justice, if you commit a crime you are punished according to the Law.
Christianity is different. Jesus has taken our punishment in our place, without Him we would have been as guilty as the Israelites, but He has taken our punishment. Through baptism we die with Him, and we become a new creation (Romans chapter 6 deals with this).
The Bible is a constant development. For example when Moses was revealing the law to the Israelites He knew far less about God than the Apostles did.
The New Testament also makes clear that the commandments of Christ supersede the commandments of Moses, as Christ was the Son of God, Moses was merely a servant. Moses even said this would happen in the Jewish Torah.Deuteronomy 18:18 wrote:I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.Hebrews 3:3-6 wrote:For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
So you are right in saying that we shouldn't be picking and choosing. However, the question is is the Christian understanding the same as the Jewish understanding. No it certainly isn't.
The Scriptures are the same, the way we understand them is different. Christians believe that Jesus would fulfil the Jewish prophets, and that there would be a New Covenant different to the old one.
The Jews under Moses had a different Covenant than the Christians do now.
For example, Leviticus 11 gives us certain animals that the Jews were not permitted to eat.
Jesus when giving the New Covenant in Matthew 15 says the following:Matthew 15:11 wrote:it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.
So who is right? I'd argue both are right. Moses' message was the Old Covenant, Jesus' message was the New Covenant. They are intended to be different. Moses' law was for the Jews before Jesus. Jesus' commandments are for everyone, both Jew and non-Jew. Where Jesus' commands that foods do not make someone unclean, He has more authority than Moses to the Christian and as such this supersedes the former law.
Likewise:
The Jewish Torah commands that we should sacrifice animals as sin offerings. For the Christian there is no need because Jesus Christ is our sacrifice.
The understanding between the law of Moses, and the laws of Christianity are different because God is speaking to two different groups of people. In the Old Covenant he is talking to the Jews, in the New Covenant he is talking to the Christians.
I can't help but think if you actually read the Bible for yourself instead of trusting what people told you about it you would be able to understand this though.You can't just pick a choose to live by only certain parts of the Bible. God, Christians believe is in falable, you can't just pick and choose what to follow.
You say this but it's not whether or not we are picking or choosing it's determining whether or not the understanding that Jesus gave us is different than the former Jewish understanding. After a read of the Gospels you will decide yes it is. Many former Jewish ways are no longer applicable to Christians.Could I also join you in Heaven by going into a supermaket on a Sunday and killing anybody that is working? or by killing any children I see sinning? After all I only followed what was Gods word in the Bible.
1. Sunday isn't the Shabbat (Sabbath), Friday to Saturday is.
2. Jesus said that we are to have mercy if we are to receive mercy from Him. If we do not have mercy on another we will lose Christ's mercy and as such will be deemed guilty on the Day of Judgement. This is a difference between Christianity and Judaism.
3. Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Shabbat. As such I disagree with the Jews on this again. The Sabbath was made for rest. God took a rest on the seventh day of creation according to the Genesis passage.Prophets are Men, Men are not divine and make mistakes, Therefore the bible is not a divine scripture.
If it was man writing it on their own sure. However, Christians believe the text was inspired by God, or that God was with these people when they were in communication with Him.If I write a book about Unicorns it does not make it possible that they could have existed.
Of course it doesn't. Hence why I have been discussing about indications.So why follow if you can't reach 100%. Why not live the life you want. Flaunt the commandments and then repent. the results would be the same.
I want to live my life the way I am currently living it. I find this is the best way for me to live, and I found that my life before following Christianity was meaningless and without purpose. As such I will continue following it.If you are tuly sorry there is no punishment, its too easy an answer.
Well, God knows if one is sincere.Following the laws of the land, if you commit a crime you are punished.
Pleading forgiveness may reduce you sentence but still have to serve a punishment.
The difference between God and the law of the land is this. The law of the land is only about justice. God is about justice and mercy.Christianity has no consiquence for evil acts as long as you are sorry for what you did. This does not wash with me.
That's true yes. Repentance does not just mean saying you are sorry though. It requires that you turn away and never do the same action again. It does not mean "Ah, sorry God" so as to continue to do the same things again.0 -
Why do the religious always ignor the old testament. Were god says its ok to kill those who worship other gods. Or were moses demands revenege on his enemies, to kill the men and take the women and boys to do as they please.
The bible is a mad old book. Contradictions glaore. Harry Potter or Wheres Wally are better hands down.0 -
The Old Testament is still useful IMO. I'm merely saying that elements of it are not applicable in Christianity due to the role of Jesus Christ, this has been the view of mainline Christianity since the 1st century.0
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The belief the bible is a "hypothesis" is such nonsense. It requires the removal of parts that are known to be incorrect and then you remove the bits you don't like such as it is OK to have your wife and daughter raped to save a man the same fate. Absolute bunk.
It also requires the person to believe that all people involved were somehow divinely controlled, they will lessen the extent but it still requires thoughts placed into a person by an unknown.
There are many folk tales that hypothesis origin of creatures which were just stories and and are accept thus but due to popularity the bible is meant to be true. I always liked the story of how man became black and gave spots to the leopard from Africa. It explains it but it just isn't true.0 -
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It's 200 years since Darwin's birth & 150 since the publication of 'On the Origin of Species'.
So, how far have we come? Have we evolved or are we still superstitious idiots, hmm?
What's your view on life on earth & how it got here...
So anything other than proven science is being a superstitious idiot ?
That type of argument really pisses me of - I'm not religious at all but dismissing an argument like that is idiotic in my book.
Remember science cannot disprove anything.0 -
Kipperhell wrote: »The belief the bible is a "hypothesis" is such nonsense. It requires the removal of parts that are known to be incorrect and then you remove the bits you don't like such as it is OK to have your wife and daughter raped to save a man the same fate. Absolute bunk.
The Bible never says that that was okay. The Bible shows clear signs of sinfulness so as to encourage people not to do the same. Especially throughout the book of Genesis. There is also an account of Judah getting a prostitute, however this is regarded as sinful through the Jewish law.
Nice attempt though.0 -
The Old Testament is still useful IMO. I'm merely saying that elements of it are not applicable in Christianity due to the role of Jesus Christ, this has been the view of mainline Christianity since the 1st century.
This is true. They keep the good bits and ignore the bits we don't like anymore. So the part about gayness being an abomination is kept but the part from the same book about not wearing clothes made from two different threads is ignored.0 -
So anything other than proven science is being a superstitious idiot ?
That type of argument really pisses me of - I'm not religious at all but dismissing an argument like that is idiotic in my book.
Remember science cannot disprove anything.
Um, yes it can. The bible talks about Adam and Eve and young earth creationists believe the world was created 6000 years ago. Science has disproved both of those so people who believe them are superstitious idiots. It's not necessarily about believing what can't be proven, it's about believing what has long been disproven0 -
This is true. They keep the good bits and ignore the bits we don't like anymore. So the part about gayness being an abomination is kept but the part from the same book about not wearing clothes made from two different threads is ignored.
Homosexuality is forbidden in the New Covenant as well as the Old Covenant. (Romans 1:26, and also 1 Corinthians chapter 6).
As for clothes made from two threads, these were cultural laws intended to keep the Jewish people separate from Gentiles. Jesus Christ broke down this division according to Ephesians 2.Ephesians 2:14 wrote:For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us.
Interesting that atheists seem to ignore the actual explanations given in the Bible for why certain Old Testament laws are no longer applicable. These explanations are numerous.0 -
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if the bible doesn't say that's ok, what is the purpose of the story where the daughter is sent out to be raped in place of two make angels? Was it not to show that allowing your daughter to be raped was better than allowing sodomy to happen?The Bible never says that that was okay.0 -
Fair enough, jesus didn't like gays either. Parts of the old testament are still cherry picked based on nothing but personal preference.Homosexuality is forbidden in the New Covenant as well as the Old Covenant. (Romans 1:26, and also 1 Corinthians chapter 6).As for clothes made from two threads, these were cultural laws intended to keep the Jewish people separate from Gentiles. Jesus Christ broke down this division according to Ephesians 2.
Interesting that atheists seem to ignore the actual explanations given in the Bible for why certain Old Testament laws are no longer applicable. These explanations are numerous.
I asked you for one such explanation a long time ago and I never got one. If old testament laws are no longer applicable, why are they still in our bible? How are we to know which parts are applicable and which aren't? As I said above it seems to be nothing but personal preference0 -
if the bible doesn't say that's ok, what is the purpose of the story where the daughter is sent out to be raped in place of two make angels? Was it not to show that allowing your daughter to be raped was better than allowing sodomy to happen?
It has the same purpose as Noah getting drunk in a field, or King David commiting adultery, or even the further story of incest in Genesis 19. To advise us not to do it. Nowhere in that passage does it say that God supported what Lot did, as such I can conclude that Kipperhell is taking liberties with the Bible.0 -
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Homosexuality is forbidden in the New Covenant as well as the Old Covenant. (Romans 1:26, and also 1 Corinthians chapter 6).
As for clothes made from two threads, these were cultural laws intended to keep the Jewish people separate from Gentiles. Jesus Christ broke down this division according to Ephesians 2.
Interesting that atheists seem to ignore the actual explanations given in the Bible for why certain Old Testament laws are no longer applicable. These explanations are numerous.
Do you just ignore the contradictions within the New Testament so?0 -
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It has the same purpose as Noah getting drunk in a field, or King David commiting adultery, or even the further story of incest in Genesis 19. To advise us not to do it. Nowhere in that passage does it say that God supported what Lot did, as such I can conclude that Kipperhell is taking liberties with the Bible.
Does it say that he didn't support it? Are you saying that the message is that he should have allowed the angels to be sodomised?0 -
Fair enough, jesus didn't like gays either. Parts of the old testament are still cherry picked based on nothing but personal preference.
You know as well as I do that that isn't what I said.
I said that the act of homosexuality is forbidden in both Judaism and Christianity, not that Jesus did not like or that Jesus hated gays. That isn't what Christianity is about. We have all sinned. I consider myself entirely on an equal par to God than any homosexual. We were both created in the image of God according to my beliefs.I asked you for one such explanation a long time ago and I never got one. If old testament laws are no longer applicable, why are they still in our bible? How are we to know which parts are applicable and which aren't? As I said above it seems to be nothing but personal preference
The Old Testament is in our Bible so that we can know the context of God's relationship with man from the beginning until the coming of the Messiah. I also did not say that all the Old Testament laws weren't applicable, I said that certain laws that Jesus Christ has fulfilled are no longer applicable.
I've explained why this is the case already quite clearly. Jesus has more authority than Moses to Christians, and there are two separate covenants which differ from eachother. The Old Covenant to the Jews, and the New Covenant to Christians. The Jews and the Christians had a different relationship with God as such of course the laws are going to differ slightly. The Old Testament book of Jeremiah (see chapter 31:31-34) prophesied that this would happen 600 years before Jesus ever walked the earth, as did Isaiah.
The Bible develops as it goes along. At the time of Moses they knew far less about God's nature than the Apostles did.kumate_champ07 wrote: »why would god make homosexuals if they are forbidden?
God made us all equal as humanity. I don't believe that sexuality is biologically predetermined personally.Do you just ignore the contradictions within the New Testament so?
Have you read the New Testament?0 -
It's far more rational to believe in God than in fairies or any of the other things that you have listed given the condition of the world and the way that humanity operates.
Is it really more rational? Or, is it more rational because of the proof you have learned,
Take a child, they have just lost their first tooth. So the put it under the pillow for the tooth fairy. In the morning the tooth is gone and in its place some money.
For this kid the tooth fairy is real. They have evidence. Their tooth is no longer there. As far as their knowledge goes they have all they need for the existance of said Fairy. They have not seen the Fairy but the have more evidence than you have for God.
Leprachauns we are told keep their Pot of Gold at the end of a rainbow. Are Rainbow therefore proof the they Probably exist. Children beleive what they are told by their parents because they have no frame of reverence.
It's only as they grow older and learn more about the world and start to question things that they start to learn the truth.
Let me put it this way, as I see it.
Religious believers are like young Children. they take things at face value because the know no better. if somebody in athority (Priests, Bible) says something is true it must be true.
Atheist are like Teenages: We question things. We want proof to back up claims. We find out that there are more plausable explainations for the world around us. The tooth fairy is reilly our parents. Santa is really our parents. Be good or Santa won't come to you is a mirror of live by the commandment and reach the kingdom of heaven.
Atheist are striving to become adults and to understand all the world and universe around us. We are not there yet but we are growing more knowledgeable all the time. Beleivers in God are happy to remain as Children.0 -
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Religious believers are like young Children. they take things at face value because the know no better. if somebody in athority (Priests, Bible) says something is true it must be true.
Atheist are like Teenages: We question things. We want proof to back up claims. We find out that there are more plausable explainations for the world around us. The tooth fairy is reilly our parents. Santa is really our parents. Be good or Santa won't come to you is a mirror of live by the commandment and reach the kingdom of heaven.
Atheist are striving to become adults and to understand all the world and universe around us. We are not there yet but we are growing more knowledgeable all the time. Beleivers in God are happy to remain as Children.
I'm not a christian although i believe Jesus was a great spiritual teacher. Athiests are very similar to religious people. Both have a strong opinion/belief because of or lack of evidence. God hasn't been proven/dis-proven?0 -
I'm not a christian although i believe Jesus was a great spiritual teacher. Athiests are very similar to religious people. Both have a strong opinion/belief because of or lack of evidence. God hasn't been proven/dis-proven?
Sorry, but you are wrong. Atheist have no beliefs.
Can you tell me anything else that people believe in but we have no proof for? Anything at all?
Jesus may have been a great spiritual teacher but there have been many great spiritual teachers. Mohammad, Buddha and even in modren world the Dali Lama.0 -
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there is believing in god even tho it hasnt been proven,
and theres believing that there might not be a god but there is a possibilty that one exists
2 very different opinions0 -
kumate_champ07 wrote: »so being gay is a choice? or is it the kind of environment that your grew you in? you dont think its genetically determined?
I don't know whether it is, and neither do you. Not only that but scientists don't know for sure either at the minute. Assuming such in a discussion about God is irrelevant. That's personally what I think.0 -
kumate_champ07 wrote: »there is believing in god even tho it hasnt been proven,
and theres believing that there might not be a god but there is a possibilty that one exists
2 very different opinions
Lack of belief is not a belief. I will believe in god when the evidence is presented. Until that time, the default position is that it's just one more unsubstantiated claim0 -
I don't know whether it is, and neither do you. Not only that but scientists don't know for sure either at the minute. Assuming such in a discussion about God is irrelevant. That's personally what I think.
its irrelevant that god made homosexuals but also hates them at the same time?
go into the george and ask how many of the lads in there choose to be gay, or how many had gay parents that passed it on. ask them at what age did they know they were gay.
it is relevant to this discussion. u failed do give your opinion/answer my questions. u have an idea im sure0 -
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God made people. I don't classify them into groupings. We could do this for various groups. Why did God create liars? I don't think God created people biologically to lie. I believe that lying is an action.0
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