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7 days or 7 billion years?

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    #242
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    uprising wrote: »
    What about the tribes lost deep in the jungles and forests, with no other contact untill recently, they should be still evolving, more advanced biologically as they never got any of the advances in medicine we westeners have, and therefore should be still evolving

    Evolution does not work in the blink of an eye nor could you trot out an isolated tribe as evidence that evolution does not occur. Adaptation to one's environment if the name of the game.
    That said I believe Darwin picked the Galapagos as his focus because of both its isolation and climate / array of species as a perfect study ground for his theories. However to apply that theory to an isolated species that may or may not have evolved jet engine / wheels for legs / 43 eyes is completely nonsensical.


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    #243
    jonon9
    Registered Users Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭jonon9


    One of the best threads iv read.

    Evolution v the Creator is an age old saga that will probably go on for countless more years. To me I think Darwin wasn't interested in reading the bible about how to earth was created he was smart enough to know that a bunch of guys wrote this based on non factual events to rope in and control people and make millions in funds doing so, no Darwin was a scientist meaning he wanted to see for himself how us as a being as well with other animals came about its called been curious.

    Now on the other hand even though they are lots of theories in science they are still lots of proven facts I haven't seen or heard one proven fact in the creator side of things as well as stories from the bible
    It comes back to an old saying 'seeing is believing' and that's what Darwin did he studied and watched animals evolved.


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    #244
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Darwin was training to be a Church of England minister before he did study on this subject so he did have an interest in God and the Bible albeit he must have had doubts as through doing his study on species he became an agnostic.

    As for Darwin in the Galapagos, he didn't see animals evolving before his eyes, rather what he saw were different types of similar birds and deduced that there must have been some form of evolution between these different types of birds and a common ancestor. At least that is what I heard on documentaries and the like.


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    #245
    uprising
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭uprising


    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    That argument falls about 200 feet short of making any sense whatsoever. Or even being worth refuting.


    Yes it's bollocko, purposeful nonsense, just seems the way evolution seems to have come about these would be beneficial to us, so why not?


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    #246
    Saruman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭Saruman


    uprising wrote: »
    If evolution were to believed, would not humans that live in cold places still be hairy and the ones in the tropics not, so eskimos and mongolian people etc should have kept their hairy bodies, and why do we need airoplanes to fly?, surely humans would be better if they could have had wings, save all that walking and running from dinosaurs, or maybe wheels instead of legs.

    You are thinking too small. Humans have not been around long enough for that sort of thinking. Compared to a lot of species like Crocodiles etc we are a very young species.

    Besides, we altered the need for much of evolution such as the invention of clothes. No need to stay hairy when we can prove natural selection by killing animals and using their fur to keep us warm. The strong survive and the weak perish.

    Humans can not have wings, we are too heavy and the only way something as heavy as us can fly is with an artificial wing. We can not evolve a jet propulsion system, besides... again we have only been flying for about a hundred years. Not enough time for evolution to do anything as there are still people alive today that were alive when the wright brothers flew in 1903.

    Try thinking a little more. Evolution takes time, time that humans have not been around long enough to see happen with some obvious exceptions.
    I say obvious but if you need them explained then you must be about 12 and have never paid attention to history lessons.


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    #247
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Darwin was training to be a Church of England minister before he did study on this subject. On doing so he became an agnostic.

    As for Darwin in the Galapagos, he didn't see animals evolving before his eyes, rather what he saw were different types of similar birds and deduced that there must have been some form of evolution between these different types of birds and a common ancestor. At least that is what I heard on documentaries and the like.

    That's so true. Imho, Darwin would be mortified by the examples of '''Strong''' Atheism that are so abundant today.. not to mention Dawkins' take on it all, and his own citations of the great Scientist


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    #248
    sells
    Closed Accounts Posts: 257 ✭✭sells


    well hands down for evolution. the comments above me sort each other out, but i love people having their own opinion. humans cant have wheels instead of legs. evolution probally did happen, given all the evidence...humans wrote the bible and humans get scared and sad and all other emotions...so what better way than to express those emotions in books, to teach people not to make each other sad or scared..or to steal etc. evolution only answers that we evolved from apes basicallly, i beleive that and theres evidence too....but evolution doesnt answer what came before the universe or the meaning to it all...so you cant rule out a god or whatever. Humans are the closest thing to god that we know of, anything we dream of, we can build. but god could exist its just ignorant to say he doesnt. maybe he just let one of his apples fall onto the ground and then that created our universe..thus in some way created everything now, etc....maybe god is some person like us. u could create many universes by just stepping on the ground.....so we will never know.


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    #249
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    jonon9 wrote: »
    One of the best threads iv read.

    Evolution v the Creator is an age old saga that will probably go on for countless more years.
    I don't know about that, Religion is on it's last legs as it is, most people say they believe in god but would under no curcumstances live to the strict rules of their chosen religion. I have friends that baptized their children just to appease the grandparent but the kids haven't seen the inside of a church since.

    In the past religious people made great scientists because they where trying to prove god and the obvious way to know god is to study his work. In actual fact science is a much better way of getting close to god because it's the only real method of understanding him (if he does in fact exist and did create the universe)


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    #250
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    uprising wrote: »
    Yes it's bollocko, purposeful nonsense, just seems the way evolution seems to have come about these would be beneficial to us, so why not?

    What is your alternative?
    I actually call Poe.


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    #251
    coffee_cake
    Registered Users Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    sells wrote: »
    but evolution doesnt answer what came before the universe or the meaning to it all...

    Why on earth would it? :confused:

    Christ, there are many things that amuse me about these arguments:
    1/ people trying to argue against evolution as if that somehow gave any credence to their creation stories whatsoever.
    2/ people using any other branch of science to argue against THIS branch of science
    3/ people throwing out "well why doesn't it explain xyz then! ha!" as some kind of trump card. I'd love to see them go to an organic chemistry lecture and yell "well why doesn't it explain why my bicycle broke this morning then if it's so true! huh?" Or perhaps to a theology lecture demanding answers on how to build cars? They have nothing to do with each other.


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    #252
    Mrmoe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭Mrmoe


    uprising wrote: »
    Anything with .gov I wouldnt be interested in looking at.

    And why exactly is that the case?
    Here is one without a .gov extension.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0000467


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    #253
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,163 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    uprising wrote: »
    Anything with .gov I wouldnt be interested in looking at.

    LOL. The entire internet evolved from a US government research project.


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    #254
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I don't know about that, Religion is on it's last legs as it is, most people say they believe in god but would under no curcumstances live to the strict rules of their chosen religion. I have friends that baptized their children just to appease the grandparent but the kids haven't seen the inside of a church since.

    No it isn't? Worldwide Christianity and Islam are growing extremely rapidly. I think religion is here to stay and I have no doubt whatsoever that the statistics will reflect this in the next 50 years and beyond. Perhaps there will be a decline in Europe for the next few decades, but I have no reason to believe that this will be sustained.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    In the past religious people made great scientists because they where trying to prove god and the obvious way to know god is to study his work. In actual fact science is a much better way of getting close to god because it's the only real method of understanding him (if he does in fact exist and did create the universe)

    They still will be great scientists. I don't get the idea that religion is somehow against science. It seems to me that both extremes are making a hype out of nothing. People of faith have contributed great things to science and will continue to do so. Science and religion are both ways of understanding the world and they are not opposed to eachother.


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    #255
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    but evolution doesnt answer what came before the universe or the meaning to it all...

    Evolution deals with biology, physics is more to do with the universe. I saw a show on the history channel last night about the universe (more about the big bang theory) and our place/meaning within it is mind boggling. We are so insignifigant it's unbelievable, around 250,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy and about 150,000,000,000 galaxies out there. We are just passing through.


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    #256
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    The Selfish Gene is an excellent (and easy to read) book on the topic (of evolutionary biology).


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    #257
    sells
    Closed Accounts Posts: 257 ✭✭sells


    everybody, Nobody is right here, nobody has the answer and to be honest if we new the answer we would be pretty bored and pissed off, because it wouldnt be the answer everybody wanted wich would piss everybody off. so the answer is there is no answer....I know thats an answer but there is no answer.


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    #258
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,163 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    dvpower wrote: »
    The Selfish Gene is an excellent (and easy to read) book on the topic (of evolutionary biology).

    I prefer his autobiography, The God Delusion.


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    #259
    Dumbledore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭Dumbledore


    Jakkass wrote: »
    No it isn't? Worldwide Christianity and Islam are growing extremely rapidly. I think religion is here to stay and I have no doubt whatsoever that the statistics will reflect this in the next 50 years and beyond. Perhaps there will be a decline in Europe for the next few decades, but I have no reason to believe that this will be sustained.



    They still will be great scientists. I don't get the idea that religion is somehow against science. It seems to me that both extremes are making a hype out of nothing. People of faith have contributed great things to science and will continue to do so. Science and religion are both ways of understanding the world and they are not opposed to eachother.

    Ah sure there can really only be one answer though!


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    #260
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    DTrotter wrote: »
    Evolution deals with biology, physics is more to do with the universe. I saw a show on the history channel last night about the universe (more about the big bang theory) and our place/meaning within it is mind boggling. We are so insignifigant it's unbelievable, around 250,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy and about 150,000,000,000 galaxies out there. We are just passing through.

    This makes the universe more extraordinary and would make me wonder more over God's creation rather than less. I don't see why people seem to think that this is an argument against God.


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    #261
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I prefer his autobiography, The God Delusion.

    The difficult questions that pissed people off were good.


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    #262
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Dumbledore wrote: »
    Ah sure there can really only be one answer though!

    There would be one answer if they were answering the same question. They clearly are not.

    Science deals with the how, religion deals with the why.


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    #263
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This makes the universe more extraordinary and would make me wonder more over God's creation rather than less. I don't see why people seem to think that this is an argument against God.

    For me it really makes me wonder why us (you may look at it as that's what make us so important), if God (the interventionist one anyway) created everything he has alot to look after. There are black holes collapsing, stars exploding, planets destroyed on a massive scale and there's this pale blue dot that he has to attend to. All these make us pale into insignifigance in my opinion, but it's this insignifigance in the face of all this that makes life so amazing. I just think that even if you take the Abrahamic god out of it the earth/universe is still a pretty impressive place.
    Do a youtube search for Neil Tyson deGrasse. There's a bit where he says that we and the universe are linked. Something about carbon being created withing stars and carbon being the basis of life so we are part of the universe and the universe is part of us, goosebumps stuff.


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    #264
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I prefer his autobiography, The God Delusion.

    autobiography?


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    #265
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,163 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    dvpower wrote: »
    autobiography?

    LOL, someone noticed. :D Yes, he describes how he is God.


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    #266
    tolosenc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    If you spend time developing Artificial Intelligence, you come to believe in an intelligent designer...


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    #267
    STBR
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭STBR


    How many more of these do we need to know that there are far more Atheists in the world than Creationists.

    At least in all the developed countries.


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    #268
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    DTrotter wrote: »
    For me it really makes me wonder why us (you may look at it as that's what make us so important), if God (the interventionist one anyway) created everything he has alot to look after.

    Yes, well God is a supernatural being, and is also believed to be omnipotent, so this would only reflect God's greatness to me rather than lessen it in any significant respect. I'd personally hold the view that all God's creation is important in some way.
    DTrotter wrote: »
    There are black holes collapsing, stars exploding, planets destroyed on a massive scale and there's this pale blue dot that he has to attend to. All these make us pale into insignifigance in my opinion, but it's this insignifigance in the face of all this that makes life so amazing. I just think that even if you take the Abrahamic god out of it the earth/universe is still a pretty impressive place.

    I personally think that it is a depressing view if we are to focus on how "insignificant" we are. I personally would prefer it incredible that the universe is so vast yet that God manages to call us to a relationship with him despite being such a small part of the entire system if you will. I'm thankful for that, and I thank God every day for it. I don't think the world makes sense without God personally. If we took God out, the world would still be amazing yes, but it would make me wonder why the world is so amazing. This is why I could not be an atheist intellectually, I have too much curiosity.
    DTrotter wrote: »
    Do a youtube search for Neil Tyson deGrasse. There's a bit where he says that we and the universe are linked. Something about carbon being created withing stars and carbon being the basis of life so we are part of the universe and the universe is part of us, goosebumps stuff.

    Will do, thanks for the suggestion :)


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    #269
    KINGVictor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭KINGVictor


    Saruman wrote: »
    You are thinking too small. Humans have not been around long enough for that sort of thinking. Compared to a lot of species like Crocodiles etc we are a very young species.

    Besides, we altered the need for much of evolution such as the invention of clothes. No need to stay hairy when we can prove natural selection by killing animals and using their fur to keep us warm. The strong survive and the weak perish.

    Humans can not have wings, we are too heavy and the only way something as heavy as us can fly is with an artificial wing. We can not evolve a jet propulsion system, besides... again we have only been flying for about a hundred years. Not enough time for evolution to do anything as there are still people alive today that were alive when the wright brothers flew in 1903.

    Try thinking a little more. Evolution takes time, time that humans have not been around long enough to see happen with some obvious exceptions.
    I say obvious but if you need them explained then you must be about 12 and have never paid attention to history lessons.



    My query is...Are humans going to evolve to a more sophisticated or superior being based on the premise of the evolution theory or did the process stop after the amazing discovery?

    Our closest relative is the chimp...why did some evolve while others didn't,
    you said the strong survive while the weak perish...if that was true then black Africans would have been wiped out ...without a doubt.

    Human beings cannot fly because we are too heavy???..a lot of the supposed prehistoric creaturers with 30 times our average weight were able to fly adequately according to evolutionist theories.

    From your post,you assume that because we have not been here for "long" ...the evolution process has not caught up with us yet, but as time goes on ...with the power of nature and its principle of natural selection...we might just evolve into some being more intelligent or superior..maybe some being with a larger brain would crop up...


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    #270
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    KINGVictor wrote: »
    My query is...Are humans going to evolve to a more sophisticated or superior being based on the premise of the evolution theory or did the process stop after the amazing discovery?

    Our closest relative is the chimp...why did some evolve while others didn't,
    you said the strong survive while the weak perish...if that was true then black Africans would have been wiped out ...without a doubt.

    Human beings cannot fly because we are too heavy???..a lot of the supposed prehistoric creaturers with 30 times our average weight were able to fly adequately according to evolutionist theories.

    From your post,you assume that because we have not been here for "long" ...the evolution process has not caught up with us yet, but as time goes on ...with the power of nature and its principle of natural selection...we might just evolve into some being more intelligent or superior..maybe some being with a larger brain would crop up...

    Chimps evolved from the same ancestor of humans, it's not necessarily the strongest that survive (Megaladons, sabre tooth tigers and short faced bears would still be around), it's whatever species has the characteristics/traits that give a advantage to survival and can pass the geens on. Why would black africans be wiped out? They were able to survive for centuries before colonisation and are still surviving.
    Evolution doesn't follow a straight line and it doesn't have a destiny. If our survival depends on having bigger brains and there are people with bigger brains they will survive and their offspring will have bigger brains. These bigger brains may lead to our downfall.


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    #271
    KINGVictor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭KINGVictor


    SirDarren wrote: »
    How many more of these do we need to know that there are far more Atheists in the world than Creationists.

    At least in all the developed countries.



    Your post is self contradictory....in the world ...in the developed world????

    In the US..far far far more developed than Ireland (probably far more than Europe as a whole),lots of professionals ie doctors,scientists,phd holders etc after all said and done still believe that Creationism makes more sense than evolution.

    I really don't know how you came to the conclusion that there are more atheists than creationists....absolute fallacy.In your world ...maybe


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