Legalise abortion

SLUSK

Abortions should be legalised in Ireland. In the long run it will help bring crime down because potential criminals will not be born. It is a well known fact that poor people commit more crimes, they also have more kids out of wedlock and so on. If these women can have abortions instead it would be good for all of us.

jhegarty

Killing children under 2 should be legalised in Ireland. In the long run it will help bring crime down because potential criminals will not grow up. It is a well known fact that poor people commit more crimes, they also have more kids out of wedlock and so on. If these women can kill children under 2 instead it would be good for all of us.

Still make sense ?

seanybiker

if its stopping criminals been born it is obviously gonna stop cops, prison guards, good people in general been born.

seanybiker

jhegarty wrote: »

Still make sense ?

Me and you feeding a troll me thinks.

SLUSK

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

seanybiker

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics?

Nope never, I do know what a child is though.

SLUSK

seanybiker wrote: »

Nope never, I do know what a child is though.

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

jhegarty

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

Yes there is a theory that crime was reduced 15/20 years after Roe v Wade.

But first, it's only a theory. There are many factors not included in any study I have read. Most of the same data could be used to show the Nintendo Nes caused reduced crime levels.


Even if you take your study as 100% correct then the question is , do the ends justify the means ?

jhegarty

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

Your post is about reducing crime . your starting a whole new argument there.

SLUSK

It was just a reply to those people who consider abortion to be "murder".

Fol20

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

You nailed it,
+1

Greyfox

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

Yes but theirs a point when the fetus can blink, burp and do most of the things babies can do..their heart beats, twins curl up to each other, they show signs of human feelings...their is a point when the fetus becomes a human being and that happens BEFOR birth!

Andy-Pandy

I dont agree with your reasoning, but i do think women should have the option. If you want it you should be able to have it, if you dont, then dont.

994

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

The foetus is in her body but clearly constitutes a separate organism - after all, you wouldn't consider conjoined twins to be a single person.

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

Shooting the homeless, drug addicts and alcoholics would also reduce crime.

rantyface

How about neutering poor people? They did it in India. And they cull street children in South America. In some countries it's considered abortion up to three days after birth and in some up to a few weeks before birth. :rolleyes:

I think everyone has an equal right to life and deserves a chance, whether their parents are rich or poor. I've seen lots of people with various birth defects have fulfilling lives, but in many "civilised" countries they are considered too much effort and abortions are recommended. I think you're very snobby. Being rich isn't the be all and end all. Plenty of people are poor and still glad to be alive. Most poor people aren't criminals. We actually have a very low crime rate, the lowest maternal mortality rate and one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, and we don't have abortion.

A lot of the worst crimes in Ireland have nothing to do with class, like rape and child abuse. The crimes that most affect me aren't even illegal- like what the banks did with my parents' pensions. Looks like I'm going to have to look after them now! I don't know anyone who's had more than the cash in their wallet stolen by a junkie. Tax evasion is like massive scale welfare fraud. The injustices done to men by Irish family law. I could go on. But our violent crime rate and murder are very low by international standards.

When exactly does a foetus becomes human then, and what event defines that? I mean exactly, not just some arbitrary time in weeks that suits you because you don't want to lose your figure.

studiorat

Daft argument, the "uneducated" as you say would also be more likely to be religious and therefore be morelikely to be anti-abortion.

Now, I don't think abortion is murder. I wouldn't be so crass as to refer to someone who had a pregnancy terminated for medical or personal reasons a criminal. Each case must be determined on it's own, no law could possibly do that. However if someone does decide to have terminate a pregnancy they should be allowed have it in their own country and not as it would seem here to be liable to ridicule from all and sundry.

philologos

Here we go again....

studiorat

Jakkass wrote: »

Here we go again....

People have lots of reasons to terminate a pregnancy. It would be nice for them not to have other peoples opinions of them to have to consider when they are making their choice.

Jackass, I know you are a reasonable guy. At least you've been polite enough to hold back on the name calling. If you for instance were in a situation where say your partner was faced with risking her life by going full term with a pregnancy or having that pregnancy terminated. Would you consider it even for a minute?

Just one scenario, there's plenty more.

philologos

studiorat wrote: »

Jackass, I know you are a reasonable guy. At least you've been polite enough to hold back on the name calling. If you for instance were in a situation where say your partner was faced with risking her life by going full term with a pregnancy or having that pregnancy terminated. Would you consider it even for a minute?

You consider me reasonable? That's news to me

I'm personally pro-life, and by pro-life I mean everyones life. If my (hypothetical) partner (I'm single currently) life was endangered by a pregnancy. I would consider it far far more important to save one life than lose two. It is basically the only situation I can think that abortion would ever be justified. I believe it is our responsibility to protect human life. This applies in all cases. The case of the mother right down to the case of those who are on death row. As such I agree with Ireland's current stance but I do not agree that abortion is a choice rather it is only something that should be considered by medical staff in emergencies.

GirlInterrupted

SLUSK wrote: »

It is a well known fact that poor people commit more crimes

I always love a 'well known fact'.

SLUSK wrote: »

You know it is legal in civilized countries.

Personally, I don't think that civilization is defined by the availability of abortion.

jhegarty

studiorat wrote: »

If you for instance were in a situation where say your partner was faced with risking her life by going full term with a pregnancy or having that pregnancy terminated. Would you consider it even for a minute?

But this thread is not about medical needs, it's about using it as a method to cull reduce the number of the poor criminal classes.

Ostrom

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

That example was illustrative, hypothetical and flawed. Freakonomics was merely an argument for developing micro-theoretical approaches in economic analysis, one based on selective examples of limited validity. The only chapter based on extensive empirical work was the one from Venkatesh's phd

Examples such as that are always attractive, and dangerous: why invest in addressing systemic causes of poverty when we can just legislate? The implications of such an approach reach far beyond

Dades

Arguing for abortion rights on the basis of perceived positive effects on society is pointless.

People don't oppose abortion because they think society needs more babies - they oppose because they think it's murder.

asdasd

Daft argument, the "uneducated" as you say would also be more likely to be religious and therefore be morelikely to be anti-abortion.

Definitely in ths US. The Freakonmics argument has been debunked.

There may be other reasons to be in favour of abortion ( although I am not in favour of late term abortions).

Boston

Abortion isn't illegal in Ireland. The procedure is carried out regularly. There's a range of medical criteria under-which you can get an abortion here.

asdasd

In congregations in the USA and Australia it was found that the rate of those had a third level degree among those who attended church on a regular basis was higher than the average.

Source. It might be that exclusively in the Bible belt the higher educated go to church. However there is a definite correlation everywhere else between higher education and irreligousity.

philologos

Boston wrote: »

Abortion isn't illegal in Ireland. The procedure is carried out regularly. There's a range of medical criteria under-which you can get an abortion here.

Interesting, would you mind elaborating on what these criteria are?

Ostrom

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

Just in case: Heuristics

philologos

asdasd wrote: »

Source. It might be that exclusively in the Bible belt the higher educated go to church. However there is a definite correlation everywhere else between higher education and irreligousity.

Apologies I have since deleted that post. However I will cite for you anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Studies_comparing_religious_behaviour_and_educational_attainment

Boston

Jakkass wrote: »

Interesting, would you mind elaborating on what these criteria are?

Anything which puts the health of the mother at risk from carrying and delivering the child naturally. You have to remember Adoptions policy in Ireland is largely decided by the medical council not by politicians.

philologos

Boston wrote: »

Anything which puts the health of the mother at risk from carrying and delivering the child naturally. You have to remember Adoptions policy in Ireland is largely decided by the medical council not by politicians.

That's still incredibly limited. Even in the most strict countries in the Islamic world this policy is applied to abortion.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/AbortionLawsMap-NoLegend.png

Dark Blue is where there is no exception to abortion being illegal
Salmon is where there is exceptions for the health of the mother.
Orange includes the above but adds rape to the exceptions.

asdasd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...nal_attainment

Only 13% of Australians have a degree?

Well I didnt trust Wikipedia so I went to the source it referened ( index 12), and it does seem correct. Useful site that actually.

http://sda.berkeley.edu:8080/quicktables/quicksetoptions.do?reportKey=gss04%3A1

philologos

I think it's just mere assumption that some people think that most people of faith are uneducated, but I think it's unfair if it isn't actually the case.

Boston

But it's actually very broad depending on the doctor. Some will only offer an abortion if the mother will die from carrying the child to term while others will offer even if there's just a higher then normal risk. I know someone who was offered one because tests showed the foetus would was likely to be born severely handicapped and that this presented a high risk to the mother during delivery. As it happens the child wasn't born severely handicapped (thought did have some medical problems) and the mother survived the birth.

The point is, abortions arn't illegal. Abortions for medical reasons are common enough. This is a fact that most people seem to be strangely oblivious to.

jhegarty

Boston wrote: »

The point is, abortions arn't illegal. Abortions for medical reasons are common enough. This is a fact that most people seem to be strangely oblivious to.

And there are ground for me to legally shoot someone. I still wouldn't say shooting people was legal.

Boston

jhegarty wrote: »

And there are ground for me to legally shoot someone. I still wouldn't say shooting people was legal.

A closer analogue would be to say there are grounds for you to assault someone. You wouldn't say assaulting someone is legal simply because that not how people think, but you also wouldn't say that assaulting someone is, in and of itself, a crime. It's a perception thing and essentially what I wanted to point out. Abortions aren't illegal, it's a misnomer to suggest otherwise.

Ostrom

Boston wrote: »

Anything which puts the health of the mother at risk from carrying and delivering the child naturally. You have to remember Adoptions policy in Ireland is largely decided by the medical council not by politicians.

Adoption or abortion?

Rev Hellfire

jhegarty wrote: »

And there are ground for me to legally shoot someone. I still wouldn't say shooting people was legal.

Its legal for a garda to use a firearm against a criminal in particular cases.
Same is true for a doctor/surgeon.

Its a simplistic argument to assume because you can't legally do something others can't either.

turgon

Abortion is a strange old topic. It doesnt fall into the usual Libertarian stance I have that do "what you want to do as long as it doesn't effect any unconsenting persons,"* as the whole debate is whether or not the foetus is a full person with full rights. I know pro-life and pro-choice dont see eye to eye, and frankly, I can never see it happening. Pro-lifers are way too passionate.

I dont think I would want my gf to have an abortion, I think adoption is better in some ways. Boardie "Sam Vimes" once said that, as an adopted person, he was very glad that abortion wasnt legal at the time, and I think that kind of affected me.

Theres a lot of pro-life stuff I think is rubbish. In terms of the end, I dont think theres a huge discrepancy between abortion and contraception - at the end of the day both prevent a person from growing. When you use a condom you deny your sperm and egg permission to be a fully grown human. Its not that I care, I just think that if one is anti-abortion one cant be all for contraception either.

I like to think Im pragmatic-ish, as opposed to being an idealist. I know a family where one of the daughters has spina-bifida and as a result she got all the attention and the rest of the family got none. Her brother killed himself at the age of 20 (after a drug intense few years), and her sister doesnt really talk to the family. The pro-lifers would say the girl with spina-bifida fully deserved to be born, but my question is this: does her short life (Spina-bifida sufferers usually live to 25/30 max) justify the **** life her siblings had? Life is not black and white, and someone being born is not necessarily positive.

Also consider that a lot of violent "anti-social" kids are born to parents who dont care. If abortion was around would the number of unloved children decrease?

*Loaded, I know.

philologos

believe me turgon, pro choicers are just as passionate

turgon

Oh I dont doubt it! But its just, seems as the pro-lifers fall back on buzzwords like "life," they seem to be more passionate. "The children deserve a life" sounds more passionate than "everyone should have this right to decide about what children they want!"

Ostrom

turgon wrote: »

I dont think I would want my gf to have an abortion, I think adoption is better in some ways. Boardie "Sam Vimes" once said that, as an adopted person, he was very glad that abortion wasnt legal at the time, and I think that kind of affected me.

Feel the same about it myself; by my own politics I should support pro-choice, but I just cant. I keep thinking thank f**k it wasn't an option back then (I'm adopted)

studiorat

Fact is women "can and do" have access to medical abortion in Ireland outside of the law. Mifepristone is readily available via internet sites, so it happens regardless.

http://www.abortion-pill-online.com/indexall.php

There's even aftercare available in Ireland for women who have had an abortion either types. So in fact the law is forcing people to workoutside it.

According to the Irish Medical news, most research into attitudes among Irish doctors found that the majority are not anti-abortion. And most of ob/gyns have provided abortion when they worked elsewhere.

Whether or not you choose to start name calling and be judge and jury your self is irrevelant it's actually happening...

philologos

studiorat wrote: »

Fact is women "can and do" have access to medical abortion in Ireland outside of the law. Mifepristone is readily available via internet sites, so it happens regardless.

http://www.abortion-pill-online.com/indexall.php

So what? Just because something happens doesn't mean that it should be legal here. Several things happen, theft happens, murder happens, rape happens. Yet these things aren't legal.

As for Mifepristone, if the Irish Government truly adhered to their constitution there would be some customs arrangement about that, but as you say there isn't.

studiorat wrote: »

There's even aftercare available in Ireland for women who have had an abortion either types. So in fact the law is forcing people to workoutside it.

I'm failing to get the point here.

studiorat wrote: »

According to the Irish Medical news, most research into attitudes among Irish doctors found that the majority are not anti-abortion. And most of ob/gyns have provided abortion when they worked elsewhere.

Again, irrelevance. The majority of the people currently oppose it. I don't base my view on abortion on what doctors think. It's obvious biologically that abortion is killing.

studiorat wrote: »

Whether or not you choose to start name calling and be judge and jury your self is irrevelant it's actually happening...

You're fine to have your opinion. However to say that something should be legal because it occurs is absolutely ridiculous.

studiorat

I'm just stating that the law as it stands is sterile. It's still possible to have an abortion and recieve aftercare from your GP.

By your comparison of Rape and Murder I suppose you are saying women who choose to have an abortion should be jailed?

Jakkass wrote: »

You're fine to have your opinion. However to say that something should be legal because it occurs is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm saying abortion happens in this country. Whether it is legal or illegal seems somewhat moot. Considering there would seem to be no criminal penalty for it... Maybe hell and damnation is enough punishment?

philologos

studiorat wrote: »

I'm just stating that the law as it stands if sterile. It's still possible to have an abotrion and recieve aftercare from your GP.

The law says that you can only get an abortion in Ireland if there is a risk to your life. That's it.

studiorat wrote: »

By your comparison of Rape and Murder I suppose you are saying women who choose to have an abotrion should be jailed?

It should be punishable yes. I personally would punish those who prescribe abortions, and provide mental health assistance to the mothers. Obviously other pro-lifers would suggest harsher punishment. I think the women who go through abortions in many cases are also victims. Abortion can have horrible results on the mental and physical health of women. People say women have abortions to avoid the potential effects of pregnancy, this is absurd considering there are just as many if not more potential side effects of abortion.

studiorat

Jakkass wrote: »

It should be punishable yes. I personally would punish those who prescribe abortions, and provide mental health assistance to the mothers.

Jakkass wrote: »

I think the women who go through abortions in many cases are also victims. Abortion can have horrible results on the mental and physical health of women.

So which is it to be, punish those who provide assistance or not?
Or just leave those "victims" be. Perhaps they could go live in a convent.

I seriously think your use of the word victims displays exactly how little you really do understand about these issues.

Publin

Where to begin with this...

SLUSK wrote: »

Abortions should be legalised in Ireland. In the long run it will help bring crime down because potential criminals will not be born. It is a well known fact that poor people commit more crimes, they also have more kids out of wedlock and so on. If these women can have abortions instead it would be good for all of us.

As has already been pointed out, this is a ridiculous argument. It also means that plenty of good people would not be born. And if the people are so poor, then who pays for the abortion? An already strained health service, funded by... that's right, us. As someone else mentioned, if you want to stop poor people having children, then why not go down the sterilisation route? (I don't agree with this obviously).

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus.

So when do you recognise a child as being a child? At the point of birth? (I'd be very interested in the reply to this)

SLUSK wrote: »

A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

This sounds so cold. Like it's removing a wart or a cancerous lump. Anyway, if someone "owns" the foetus, surely the woman AND man "own" it?

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I dont agree with your reasoning, but i do think women should have the option. If you want it you should be able to have it, if you dont, then dont.

Why should they have the option? They've already had the option. They chose to have sex (. I'll deal with rape cases later on in this post).

turgon wrote: »

Theres a lot of pro-life stuff I think is rubbish. In terms of the end, I dont think theres a huge discrepancy between abortion and contraception - at the end of the day both prevent a person from growing. When you use a condom you deny your sperm and egg permission to be a fully grown human. Its not that I care, I just think that if one is anti-abortion one cant be all for contraception either.

I can see your point to an extent. Contraception, for the most part, stops the sperm from meeting the egg, so an unborn child/foetus is never created. I can see the argument against the morning after pill however.

studiorat wrote: »

Fact is women "can and do" have access to medical abortion in Ireland outside of the law. Mifepristone is readily available via internet sites, so it happens regardless.

So just because it happens regardless, we should legalise it? Riiiiight... rape, murder, torture all happen regardless anyway, so why not legalise these too?

studiorat wrote: »

There's even aftercare available in Ireland for women who have had an abortion either types.

Yeah and there are treatment programmes for drug addicts...


Boston has made a good points in this thread. Abortion is allowed in cases where the mother's life is at risk.

To address the issue of legalising it in cases of rape, which appears from the link to that map of world is the situation in some countries, I don't think we should go down this route.
There was a case only in the last week or so where a woman made false rape accusations, I think the reason given was because a taxi driver gave her a "dirty look" when she was drunk. Imagine the number of false rape claims that would destroy lives and reputations if girls thought this was the only way to get an abortion. I'll also point out there is the morning after pill and the option of adoption. Also, does anyone has statistics on what percentage of abortions are due to rape? I would doubt strongly it's even in double figures out of the total abortions worldwide.

I don't think anyone's minds will be changed by what's written on here, most people have very strong, set views on this topic either way, but it is interesting to hear these views IMO (once exchanges are kept civil ).

studiorat

Publin wrote: »

So just because it happens regardless, we should legalise it? Riiiiight... rape, murder, torture all happen regardless anyway, so why not legalise these too?

Rape, Murder and torture would all be followed up by the police. Why don't they follow up on abortions?

Lets not forget contraception was illegal in Ireland up until very recently.

Publin wrote: »

Yeah and there are treatment programmes for drug addicts...

Indeed, and the fact is that women who choose to terminate a crisis pregnancy are treated in much the same way as drug addicts. With the same name calling and mob mentality that's portrayed by a couple of the posters here.

philologos

studiorat wrote: »

So which is it to be, punish those who provide assistance or not?

I didn't say that, I said two actions we should do:

1) Punish those who prescribe abortions
and
2) Provide mental health assistance

Two separate actions. My phrasing was bad.

studiorat wrote: »

Or just leave those "victims" be. Perhaps they could go live in a convent.

I haven't mentioned anything about a convent. I personally think psychologists are better trained than nuns to deal with mental issues.

studiorat wrote: »

I seriously think your use of the word victims displays exactly how little you really do understand about these issues.

Many many women are victims. Post Abortion Syndrome is not something to be scoffed at. Many women regret their actions for the rest of their lives. There are also many potential physical health effects of abortion which you seem to also scoff at. Without wishing to get into a pedantic tit for tat debate I would argue it shows how little you understand about the issue.

Fugly

Hmm, I read the posts here and was planning to respond to some individually but figured it wouldn't get me very far.

I am a 21 year old female, and I'm pro choice. I don't particularly like labelling myself as in a topic such as this there is no black and white just a hell of a lot of shades of grey.

I think we should legalise abortion. Presently women travel to Britain to get abortion, which now during a recession is not a option for eveyone. Also there is a problem regarding the follow up care. Any woman who chooses to have an abortion does not make the decision lightly.

I honestly do not understand why anyone should have the right to tell a woman [me] what to do with their [my] body. I am very careful regarding my sexual partners, and practice safe sex, but accidents happen and I really don't believe forcing me to carry it to term will be good for it or me. I'm lucky enough to have the means to travel for an abortion but a lot of women may not.

I know I ramble but as someone who is directly affected by the legality of abortion I can't fathom why it isn't a choice.