Romanians Victims of Racist Attacks

P. Breathnach

opo wrote: »

Wrong again.

There are however some that think the reasons for the attack were racism based on nothing more than the fact they are foreign.

The same people can be counted upon to assume racism in any encounter with a foreigner and ascribe victim status instantly without knowing (or wanting to know) the facts.

This is of course an inverted bigotry that any racist can readily identify with.

What has that got to do with "how many houses the 100+ "victims" lived in and why they were there"? You are ducking and diving.

junder

Europe's Beggars, Romania's Roma
Marius Dragomir
http://www.ce-review.org/00/41/dragomir41.html
Romania has the largest Roma minority in Europe. According to the last official census, roughly two million Roma, representing ten percent of the population, are living in Romania today. They are considered to be "the most disruptive" minority; an opinion supported by statistics from the Romanian police that reveal a high proportion of crimes are committed by Roma.

Representatives of the Romanian Roma Party argue that this is due to the grim medieval poverty Roma face today. They also claim that Romanians are prejudiced, blaming the Roma minority for all the troubles in Romania. According to the Party, Romani people cannot work, even if they want to, because the Romanian employers are reluctant to hire them. Roma party leaders also complain about the indifference of the government and their lack of effort in securing the social integration of the Roma minority.

Facing cruel poverty (living in houses without electricity and running water), the Roma are trying to survive by begging in the street. In the past ten years, many have moved to Central Europe where they can earn more money from begging.

In turn, Romania has had to bear the prejudices of Central and Western European countries that associate Romania with "a hell lived by Gypsies." Instead of working on the domestic economic situation which can change the standard of life for its people, the Romanian state has focused on improving "the image of the country abroad," by trying to keep its Roma at home, with the help of those Central European countries that have sent many of the Romanian Roma packing, declaring themselves "sick of Romanian Gypsies."

Illegal migration networks

The migration of Roma people started immediately after the fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989. The Roma minority discovered a new way to make money. Because the competition in the "begging market" was too harsh in Romania, they went to the former Czechoslovakia, Poland and Germany to earn their money. Soon, they created the "illegal migration network," as the official documents from the Romanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs describe it.

Romania gained a bad reputation that encouraged Czechoslovakia to propose the introduction of visas for Romanian citizens. The Romanian diplomats succeeded in avoiding the problem by signing a treaty of readmission with Prague in 1992. The treaty was renewed separately with the Czech Republic and Slovakia after the country split in 1993.

But the "illegal migration network" continued to work. Facing waves of Roma emigrés, a severe regime for Romanian travelers was introduced in Poland, and a stricter border control on entry into Germany was enforced. Consequently, after 1995, the Roma people chose Slovakia and the Czech Republic as their final destination. Two routes to Slovakia were established: the so-called "green border way," through Ukraine (they used to enter Slovakia by walking in the forest without any identity paper), and the normal route of crossing the border between Hungary and Slovakia.

According to froeign police in Slovakia, many Romanian Roma prefer Bratislava where they beg in the center or steal Western and Central European passports. They sell these passports to the heads of the more sophisticated prostitution networks that deliver prostitutes to the Western European sex market.

On arriving in Bratislava, they have their "contact persons" who provide them with a place to sleep—usually in deserted blocks of flats or caves.

Zanfira Gindac, a Roma woman from a village close to the Romanian town of Arad, begs in front of the TESCO supermarket in Bratislava. She says that she came with her husband and two of their five children, to beg in Bratislava. "We make about 1000 Slovak crowns a day (more than USD 20). After two months, we usually go home with almost 50,000 Slovak crowns (more than USD 1000). We live half a year with this money in Romania," she says.

Zanfira and her family usually cross the border by bribing the Slovak police officers. "We give them USD 100. Everybody has to eat a loaf," she says.

When the illegal immigrants are caught begging, they are taken by Slovak police to the Romanian embassy. "We have to make consular passports for them, valid one day, and send them home. They need these documents because after getting the interdiction stamp on their passports, they get rid of the documents," says Octavian Olteanu, consul at the Romanian embassy in Bratislava.

According to the diplomatic reports from the Romanian embassy, "the Romanians cross the border illegally in Slovakia by bribing the Slovak officers." In 2000, the number of illegal Romanian emigrés doubled, reaching almost 3000. Eighty percent of them are Roma. "Illegal emigrés" are considered those citizens whose purpose of travel is NOT study, tourism or business.

The consul says that they receive a lot of money in Slovakia. "Some Roma people told me some time ago that they came to beg for a car. I was puzzled," Olteanu says.

The Czech Republic has made a great progress in preventing these waves of Roma emigrés. During the past year the numbers of Romanians entering the Czech Republic was reduced tenfold and only 80 citizens were sent back to Romania. Ninety percent of all illegal emigrés are Roma, according to the Romanian embassy in Prague.

At the border they are met by "guides" who take them to Germany. But the Czech Republic has managed to limit "migration" through the introduction of a new law at the beginning of 2000. The law necessitates that the border guards put down on the "visa paper" their signature. This restricts the extent of bribery because the guards can easily be discovered and they don't want to jeopardize their jobs: if a person is found with illegal documents in the Czech Republic, the officer who permitted his or her entrance will be punished.

Picking up the coins in Central Europe

"Eventually, the Czechs realized that the Romanians are not beggars," says Marian Radu, secretary in the consular section of the Romanian Embassy in Prague.

"But the Slovaks still think that Romania is a country where only poor Gypsies live," says Ludmila Lasac, a student from Bratislava who came from the village of Voievozi (county Bihor) in Romania. She is a member of the Slovak minority from Romania who came to what she called "our grand grandparents' country."

Most Slovaks from Romania who have returned to Slovakia (more than 3000 in the past ten years, according to Foreign police in Bratislava) face similar resentments: "They know only those dirty Gypsies and that's the reason why, when they see a Romanian passport, they reject you," Lasac says.

It is the same with the case of Nicolae Dragu, a Romanian citizen who tried to visit his daughter who is studying in Bratislava. He was sent back to Romania in June 2000 by Slovak officers who refused to explain the reasons for his expulsion, Dragu says.

Jaromir Novak, a journalist working for Hospodarsky Dennik in Bratislava, is a member of the Slovak community from Romania and settled in Slovakia seven years ago. One of the problems he faces is that the Slovak state does not want to grant him Slovak citizenship—a refusal caused by the same prejudice against Romania and Roma people.

This is the situation for 90 percent of Slovaks from Romania, according to the Romanian Embassy in Bratislava. Slovak officials in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs explained their refusal by saying that Slovakia doesn't have a law for granting double citizenship.

"But if you are a Slovak from Switzerland or any other Western country, the law against double citizenship is suddenly irrelevant. If you are a Romanian, you are a Gypsy and you have to comply with the law," Lasac says.

Although the Slovak state blames Romania for their inability to keep its Roma people at home, the Slovak government has not made any effort to stop "migration networks." A high official from the Slovak Interior Ministry said that they knew about border officers taking bribes from Roma. They hope the situation will be improved when the salaries of these officers are increased, claiming that it will motivate officers to keep their jobs.
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During an official meeting in June this year, Romanian President Emil Constantinescu and Slovak President Rudolf Schuster brushed over the Roma subject saying that the "Roma problem is a European problem" and promised to solve it in the future. Unfortunately, nobody knows how this will be done.

While governments are anguishing over the prevention of Roma migration from Romania, the Romanian "Gypsies," as they are called by the public, ponder over the day when the Roma will be incarcerated in camps and isolated from the world:


Quote:
"Everybody in Romania hates us. Now, we are loathed everywhere. We don't come here gladly. Do you think I like to see my child playing the accordeon in the tram and picking up the coins thrown by Slovaks? I would like to have a salary and come to Bratislava as a normal tourist. But I don't even dare to dream about that day," Zanfira bitterly concludes.


Marius Dragomir, 22 November 2000

photos courtesy of Oltit,a Stiuj, Monitorul de Bras,ov

Moving on:

* Archive of articles on Romania in CER
* Browse through the CER eBookstore for electronic books
* Buy English-language books on Romania through CER

dracula's son

links with the discriminated gypsy comunity in Romania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzJrmXO-KZE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHTBPhQcXCY&feature=related&pos=0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1xKBFUX1dE&feature=related&pos=10


this is dark face of Romania
D's s.

opo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What has that got to do with "how many houses the 100+ "victims" lived in and why they were there"? You are ducking and diving.

Still trying to establish the facts.

The facts do not lie and they put the attack in context. If this was a group of Irish people run out of their homes, we would want to know why.

I assume you are happy with a lazy mindless theory that crazed racists appeared spontaneously and in unison to attack innocent Roma for no reason whatsoever other than the fact they were Roma.

I don't accept that theory and I would like to know a little more.

Only an idiot would conclude from this that there is some cheerleading on my part for the perpetrators.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Wrong again.

There are however some that think the reasons for the attack were racism based on nothing more than the fact they are foreign.

So you're saying the attacks are justified because of these other reasons then?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

So you're saying the attacks are justified because of these other reasons then?

I have never said the attacks were justified no matter how many times this moronic deduction was made.

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

I have never said the attacks were justified no matter how many times this moronic deduction was made.

No, but you've repeatedly implied that they might have been.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, but you've repeatedly implied that they might have been.

No, I have repeatedly stated that there are unreported facts and holes in the story and I am more than happy to discuss that if anyone else is.

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

No, I have repeatedly stated that there are unreported facts and holes in the story and I am more than happy to discuss that if anyone else is.

...but, no matter what turns up to fill those holes, you'll accept that there are no circumstances under which it's acceptable to terrorise a family out of their home?

It's a very simple question.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

...but, no matter what turns up to fill those holes, you'll accept that there are no circumstances under which it's acceptable to terrorise a family out of their home?

It's a very simple question.

Believe me, if one of my childern were attacked or raped, the perpetrators would not be safe in their homes.

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

Believe me, if one of my childern were attacked or raped, the perpetrators would not be safe in their homes.

OK, so we've finally established that you believe it would be acceptable to terrorise a family out of their home if a member of that family was guilty of attacking or raping a child.

Has there been any suggestion that a member of any of these families attacked or raped any children of the people who terrorised them out of their homes?

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, so we've finally established that you believe it would be acceptable to terrorise a family out of their home if a member of that family was guilty of attacking or raping a child.

Has there been any suggestion that a member of any of these families attacked or raped any children of the people who terrorised them out of their homes?

There has been vituallly no detail.

Is the penny dropping yet?

Is that the royal "we" that has established an irrelevancy BTW?

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

Is the penny dropping yet?

Oh, I think I know where you stand, even if you're reluctant to admit it.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Oh, I think I know where you stand, even if you're reluctant to admit it.

Equally, I think you are only able to operate on your own closeted level and the comfort you derive from it, forbids you from thinking any other way.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

I have never said the attacks were justified no matter how many times this moronic deduction was made. .

No, you've hinted at it, implied it and slyly suggested it. Why you haven't the nerve to state your beliefs in a forthright manner is the only question now. Given how transparent your attempts to cloak them are, its fairly pointless to continue the charade.

opo wrote: »

Believe me, if one of my childern were attacked or raped, the perpetrators would not be safe in their homes.

No one has suggested it. Absence of such a suggestion is no reason to believe it exists. Given the lurid nature of such an accusation, theres more than a few tabloids that would jump on it. Thats the second time you've mentioned that kind of thing, to do much as I outlined above.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

No, you've hinted at it, implied it and slyly suggested it. Why you haven't the nerve to state your beliefs in a forthright manner is the only question now. Given how transparent your attempts to cloak them are, its fairly pointless to continue the charade.



No one has suggested it. Absence of such a suggestion is no reason to believe it exists. Given the lurid nature of such an accusation, theres more than a few tabloids that would jump on it. Thats the second time you've mentioned that kind of thing, to do much as I outlined above.

Yawn.

wes

opo wrote: »

Wrong again.

There are however some that think the reasons for the attack were racism based on nothing more than the fact they are foreign.

The same people can be counted upon to assume racism in any encounter with a foreigner and ascribe victim status instantly without knowing (or wanting to know) the facts.

This is of course an inverted bigotry that any racist can readily identify with.

Are you accusing people of being racist to the people, who drove people out of there homes? You have got to be joking.

What facts are you look for exactly?!? You don't seem to be providing any facts yourself and are instead engaging in wild speculation. Do you have a shred of evidence that the attacks weren't racist? All the news coverage and not to mention the police, seem to think the attacks were racial motivated. Have a single shred of proof to show otherwise?!?

opo

wes wrote: »

Are you accusing people of being racist to the people, who drove people out of there homes?

Correct

wes wrote: »

You have got to be joking.

Correct.

At this stage, you are just another broken record. So whatever.

wes

opo wrote: »

At this stage, you are just another broken record. So whatever.

So everyone who disagree's with you is a broken record then?

Seriously, have you managed to find any information to suggest that the stories, as have appeared in the press, are not true?

djpbarry

johnnyc wrote: »

At the moment alot of romas gypsies are taking medical cards, rent allowances etc.

That looks to me like an assumption?

conchubhar1

more like ignorance and racism to me

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Yawn.

opo wrote: »

At this stage, you are just another broken record. So whatever.

More erudition.....

Tha Gopher

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're falling back on arm-waving to avoid answering a perfectly straightforward question.

Ooh

Quick question- if you see a group of Roma gypsy women standing by an ATM, do you feel the exact same as if you saw a group of old white haired women in terms of wanting to use said ATM?
Would you be more suspicious seeing a Roma talking to an old man at his door than you would be of a regular middle aged woman?
Finally: would you bother answering these questions honestly? It is clear as glass you, djpbarry and all the other usual suspects are as wary of this lot as the rest of us, why be a keyboard warrior?

wes wrote: »

An irrational hatred of the Roma people imho. .

Irrational? The vast majority in (for example) Slovakia dont work. They are disproportionately involved in crime. It is a bit like saying me disliking most Irish travellers is irrational just because during the boom 88% of them couldnt be bothered working and they make up 10% of our prison population (prison figure as quoted by an author on the late late and, shocking, unchallenged by his fellow guest, that Collins chap of those Pavee Point troublemakers, so Id reckon its fairly accurate).

djpbarry wrote: »

Somebody mentioned earlier the case of Slovakia, where, officially, the Roma population makes up just under 2% of the total. However, unofficial estimates put the figure closer to about 9%. One of the main reasons for this discrepancy is the fact that many ‘settled’ Roma do not refer to themselves as such, but rather state their ‘ethnicity’ as Slovak (or some other nationality) in the official census. So those who have settled and attained a standard of living comparable to the majority of the population in the country are estimated to make up (at least) a sizeable minority of the total Roma population. Now, granted, much of the evidence is anecdotal, but it is obviously not without basis. The point is, referring to the entire Roma population of Europe as a single, homogenous group is pretty ridiculous.

Horsesh1t.
So assuming most gypsies in Ireland are unemployed and on benefits is crap, but it is safe to assume most Slovak gypsies actually have jobs? Comical Ali wouldnt have chanced his arm with that one.

djpbarry wrote: »

I presume by “they” that you mean all Roma in Ireland? Care to demonstrate how someone could come to this country and claim welfare without first making PRSI contributions?

Having a child here thus getting benefit for said child (EU citizen). Selling a sob story to the social worker about how the husband has left and they have no money. What is the SW going to do, deport an Irish born EU citizen child and their family?

Why am I even answering this when you know full well they can claim benefit?

oscarBravo

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Quick question- if you see a group of Roma gypsy women standing by an ATM, do you feel the exact same as if you saw a group of old white haired women in terms of wanting to use said ATM?
Would you be more suspicious seeing a Roma talking to an old man at his door than you would be of a regular middle aged woman?
Finally: would you bother answering these questions honestly? It is clear as glass you, djpbarry and all the other usual suspects are as wary of this lot as the rest of us, why be a keyboard warrior?

If I get an email from a 419 scammer in my inbox today, does that make it OK for a Nigerian family to get burnt out of their house tomorrow?

My point is simple: a fundamental, basic human right is to live in your home without fear of being terrorised out of it by a mob.

If you don't accept that that's a basic right, we have nothing to discuss.

wes

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Irrational? The vast majority in (for example) Slovakia dont work. They are disproportionately involved in crime. It is a bit like saying me disliking most Irish travellers is irrational just because during the boom 88% of them couldnt be bothered working and they make up 10% of our prison population (prison figure as quoted by an author on the late late and, shocking, unchallenged by his fellow guest, that Collins chap of those Pavee Point troublemakers, so Id reckon its fairly accurate).

There are entire Italian cities basically run by the mafia and I don't see the same irrational hatred of Italians.

So what if the Roma are disproprtionally involved in crime. Its hardly fair to blame the whole lot of them, now is it? Do you think the irrational hatred of the Roma will help the situation? It is stupid in this day and age to hate an ethnic group. They are Human like the rest of us. If there are problems, irrational hatred will not solve them.

Also, statistics on Irish traveller are meaningless, when it comes to the Roma.

Tha Gopher

oscarBravo wrote: »

If I get an email from a 419 scammer in my inbox today, does that make it OK for a Nigerian family to get burnt out of their house tomorrow?

My point is simple: a fundamental, basic human right is to live in your home without fear of being terrorised out of it by a mob.

If you don't accept that that's a basic right, we have nothing to discuss.

Right I accept it. As I did in my opening post if you bothered getting off your PC horse.

Now, answer the questions posed rather than avoiding. Otherwise I will have no option to assume you are as wary of Roma as the rest of us as a group rather than individuals.

There are entire Italian cities basically run by the mafia and I don't see the same irrational hatred of Italians.

Ive seen quite a few Italians in workplaces. Most Italians you meet are friendly. All might have something to do with it.

So what if the Roma are disproprtionally involved in crime. Its hardly fair to blame the whole lot of them, now is it? Do
Also, statistics on Irish traveller are meaningless, when it comes to the Roma.

Hey, Im not saying blame everyone. I have respect fr the 12% of travellers who can actually be ashamed of the behaaviour of the other 88% and actually want to contribute. And seeing as travellers and Roma have a remarkably common culture I think its a fair point.

wes

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Ive seen quite a few Italians in workplaces. Most Italians you meet are friendly. All might have something to do with it.

So, people make there decisions mostly based on personal exerpience then and the crime stat's are probably just a justification for pre-existing prejudice?

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Hey, Im not saying blame everyone. I have respect fr the 12% of travellers who can actually be ashamed of the behaaviour of the other 88% and actually want to contribute. And seeing as travellers and Roma have a remarkably common culture I think its a fair point.

The main similarity is that they travel. Still, statisitics on Irish travellers bear no relevance to the Roma. 2 different groups of people. It is nonsensical to try and come to conclusion on the Roma, based on stats about the Irish traveller's. Your pal Comical Ali, may have tried to pull that one, but most people would laugh at the silliness.

Nodin

A church which gave sanctuary to more than a hundred Romanians when they fled from racist violence has been attacked by vandals.
The windows of City Church in University Street, south Belfast, were smashed by stone-throwers overnight.
The attack came as the Northern Ireland power-sharing executive confirmed that it is to pay the travel costs of a hundred of the Romanians so they can return home.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6560825.ece

Yep, thats about the level of them......

djpbarry

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Having a child here thus getting benefit for said child (EU citizen). Selling a sob story to the social worker about how the husband has left and they have no money.

Child benefit comes to a whopping €38 per week – would you relocate to Ireland for that, considering how expensive it is to feed and clothe said child in this country?

Tha Gopher wrote: »

So assuming most gypsies in Ireland are unemployed and on benefits is crap, but it is safe to assume most Slovak gypsies actually have jobs?

I didn’t say that, I merely pointed out the inaccuracy of the statement. According to a 2003 report from the Institute for Public Affairs in Bratislava, unemployment among Roma in Slovakia varied depending on region (e.g. 73.5% in Sabinov, 43.9% in Prievidza). The overall average was about 67.7%, which is a long way short of “nearly 100%”. Furthermore, the report concluded that:

“All national and European reports and studies so far that have dealt with the status of the Roma in Slovak society and especially on the official labor market have stated that this market is closed for them, which means they cannot exercise their right to work and are de facto disadvantaged.”

http://www.eurac.edu/NR/rdonlyres/06B74945-34F5-452A-8859-6D6464038726/0/romaglob_final.pdf

wes

Don't think this has been posted here yet:

Romanians leave NI after attacks

One hundred Romanians who fled their homes in Belfast after a spate of recent attacks have decided to leave Northern Ireland and return home.

Social Development Minister Margaret Ritchie said 25 people had already left and a further 75 were going to leave as soon as they could.

Mrs Ritchie said just 14 people had decided to stay in the country.

The Housing Executive has said it is paying for the families to return to Romania through emergency legislation.

A spokesman for the Northern Ireland council for Ethnic Minorities said it was likely the remaining families would leave before the end of the week.

"We have all spoken to the the Romanian families and the majority of them want to go home," he said.

City Church, which last week provided temporary overnight shelter for the ethnic Roma, was targeted by vandals on Monday night.

Pastor Malcolm Morgan said the church was covered in broken glass.

"I arrived this morning to find windows smashed at the front of our church and our main glass doorway smashed as well," he said.

"Stones were lying scattered on the floor inside and outside and obviously broken glass was everywhere.

"It would be easy to conclude it was carried out by someone who didn't like our response to the Romanians, but that is only guess work.

Click here for full article

So the racists have won and gotten rid of these poor people and they even in all probablity attacked the church that offered them sanctuary. I can't say I blame the Roma for leaving, especially in light of some of the attitudes seen in this thread towards them.