Romanians Victims of Racist Attacks

P. Breathnach

RiverWilde wrote: »

... How the hell is society supposed to function if the likes of these morons are allowed to drive ordinary decent citizens from their homes? ...

Why limit your comment to "ordinary decent citizens"? Even if a group are not ordinary decent citizens, no mob or gang should be entitled to drive them from their homes.

[I am not suggesting that the Romanian victims were anything other than ordinary decent people. I know nothing about them.]

djpbarry

ART6 wrote: »

I worry that with uncontrolled immigration the issue is only going to get worse. Therefore, to avoid that, I believe that any immigrant should be obliged to learn the language fluently, and to abide by local customs, behavior, and dress, and should be required to swear allegience to the host country, renouncing all others.

Indeed - can't be offending the poor racists now can we?

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

If you have lived in belfast your entire life then you know full well that the loyalist area of the village and olmypia does not extend past the railway line. Moreover you would know that the vast majorty of people who now live in the lisburn rd are mostly students, nurses or middle class professionals. As for graffiti cross the west link and you will see KAH graffiti and 'huns out' so whats your point. Racism and sectariainism is indemic across northern ireland in both community and in the RoI so spare the 'more innocent then thou' routine. Racsim is a curse of working class and sink estates and has its routes in poverty and other socail problems.

That area of south Belfast around Tates Avenue, around Hunter's Bar has always been a Protestant area junder. There has been an influx of landlords buying up property and renting them to students, nurses and foreign nationals. A lot of this hasn't gone down well with the locals. NOT all locals junder but enough to intimidate those out of the area. The point I was making about 'Taigs out' painted on walls in that area was to highlight that there is also tension between catholic students living there and the locals. There have been similar news reports in loyalist Donegall Pass and Sandy Row. As I've said you'll find racism and sectarianism anywhere and should always be faced down but it's a signifcant issue within Loyalist areas which isn't being addressed. As you well know the links between loyalist paramilitaries and right wing extremists

junder wrote: »

Yer your right, us loyalists or so racist. I know this one feller (a northern ireland fan to boot who was at the game) in the village who hates polish so much that you actully lives with a polish girl and has a 4 month old son with her. And my family we hate forginers so much that a couson of mine has a child with a slovikian girl. And Me i used to have polish nieghbours (no they were not forced out) i hated them so much i used to have adrink with them and to really so how much i hated them i brought them along to watch the 12th and took them up to derry day to watch the apprentice boys parades in londonderry. Moreover the orange lodge is so racist that it actully lodges in africa that are made up completely of black people (ghanna to be precise), and native american lodges in canada.
As it happens there is alot of work going on within the wider loyalist community to try and redress the problem of racism but after reading some of the comments on this thread you think whats the point we are damned no matter what we do.

So you know a few people aren't racist and the orange order have lodges in Ghana with black people, so what? What is the good work being done in loyalist areas to address racism?

junder

LittleNipper wrote: »

Thats just you and a "fella you know". There obviously isnt good enough work going on to address the problem when all this has happened.
You would as a community be applauded if you rid of the racism in loyalist communities, but as of now it looks worse than ever and nothing seems to have changed one bit.
These racist should be the ones forced out of their home and not the Romanians.

I guess you missed the part were i said "alot of work is going on within the wider loyalist community to tackle racism" from the head of the chinise welfare committee being involved i nthe orginization of the annadale 11th night celebrations, to Shankill Alternatives orginzing a cultral day on the shankill show casing some of the different cultures now living in the shankill. Most of it is at grass roots leveland is not publizied.The vast majorty of the people living in the village area do not support ot consone racism.

bernardo mac

Junder says that" racism is the curse of the working class and sink estates" Surely,those who have a job are workers,self employed or otherwise.I presume by the term "working class" one is indicating a particular group within society whose wages are low, maybe,or who are more prone to suffer more unemployment,social deprivation than other groups.The majority from such "sink estates" exude class in my experience;people of the finest quality. Of course there is plenty of evidence in social/political history to prove that economic and educational inequality and the consequent social grievances have been exploited by those[better off economically]for their own political agenda. The North fits into this category,in my opinion..as does Germany pre WW2....The people of Northern Ireland and the Romanians have suffered much..Enough!

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

That area of south Belfast around Tates Avenue, around Hunter's Bar has always been a Protestant area junder. There has been an influx of landlords buying up property and renting them to students, nurses and foreign nationals. A lot of this hasn't gone down well with the locals. NOT all locals junder but enough to intimidate those out of the area. The point I was making about 'Taigs out' painted on walls in that area was to highlight that there is also tension between catholic students living there and the locals. There have been similar news reports in loyalist Donegall Pass and Sandy Row. As I've said you'll find racism and sectarianism anywhere and should always be faced down but it's a signifcant issue within Loyalist areas which isn't being addressed. As you well know the links between loyalist paramilitaries and right wing extremists



So you know a few people aren't racist and the orange order have lodges in Ghana with black people, so what? What is the good work being done in loyalist areas to address racism?

you mean hunters bar that is no longer called hunters bar, maybe you think that because your a repubican from 'da north' that you will believe and say what you want, however i actully live in the village and i can assure i know were it begins and were it ends, and it does not end at what was hunters bar. The Lisburn Road are is offically classified as mixed area with the predominate relgion being catholic. It is not a Loyalist estate it has not been a Loyalist state in a considerable amount of time. There is a tiny culde - sac of housing exce houses of no more the 20 houses oppersite Tates avenue that at one point could have been discribed as protestant but is now mixed as well. The ares that is known as the greater village area starts at the donegall road and is border by the westlink, the main belfast - dublin railway line and extends as far as windsor football ground, it does not cross the railway line, it does not extend to the lisburn rd

RiverWilde

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why limit your comment to "ordinary decent citizens"? Even if a group are not ordinary decent citizens, no mob or gang should be entitled to drive them from their homes.

[I am not suggesting that the Romanian victims were anything other than ordinary decent people. I know nothing about them.]

I didn't attach such a narrow interpretation to my statement as you have.

Riv

markopantelic

Jesus christ :eek:

are the roma the most victimised people in europe? i mean how many them were killed by the nazis but you don't hear anything about that!!!

they might be annoying but they're not that bad.

P. Breathnach

RiverWilde wrote: »

I didn't attach such a narrow interpretation to my statement as you have.

I didn't think you intended to, but I just wanted to broaden the point because so many people in NI lend tacit or overt support to non-standard "policing".

It doesn't matter who the victims are, or if they are good people or bad people: once a gang tries to impose its will on a person or group, a wrong has been done.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Another Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist bashing thread I see. Well just in case anyone didn't hear Martin McGuinness was on the radio saying there's no evidence loyalist paramilitaries were involved and he does not think loyalist paramilitaries were involved.

You can't expect the loyalist community to take responsibility for local thugs. I'm not going to pretend I think racism is anywhere near as big a problem in the republican community but its horrifically unfair to tar all loyalists with the same brush. As junder's posts clearly point out.

A part of me thinks sectarianism is now so out of hand that republicans are being anti-racist to spite the other side.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

you mean hunters bar that is no longer called hunters bar, maybe you think that because your a repubican from 'da north' that you will believe and say what you want.

Haven't been in Hunters for a few years back. The last time I was I found it a bit scary. However I was in Ryan's bar a few weeks back - the foods lovely.

junder wrote: »

however i actully live in the village and i can assure i know were it begins and were it ends, and it does not end at what was hunters bar. The Lisburn Road are is offically classified as mixed area with the predominate relgion being catholic.

Now this made me laugh. Is this classified by you Junder. I know the area, I pass it everyday. As I said there is an influx of landlords in that area that hasn't gone down well with the 'locals'.

Let's get back on track here. Who do you think is responsible for these racist attacks?

P. Breathnach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

... A part of me thinks sectarianism is now so out of hand that republicans are being anti-racist to spite the other side.

I suspect that there is a germ of truth in that.

gurramok

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i would like to add to Conor's point. To a casual observer, whilst I am sure it was not the OP's intention, it would appear that some posters are posting not because they are sickened by these attacks, but because it is a good excuse to get stuck in to loyalists. How does that make them any better than the racist thugs who carried out this act?

Deleted User wrote: »

You just know that some posters are delighted, it gives them another reason to have a go. And before they get all pious and defensive, I would ask anyone to count the number of times anyone has expressed concern for the victims. It's just been a rush to condemn with no care for the Romanians.

Both of you are picking up the wrong end of the stick and ignored my post.

There are links between racist attacks and loyalism before today hence justified finger of suspicion. This needs to be highlighted as its the elephant in the room.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...0.html?via=rel

Police in Northern Ireland may name and shame paramilitary groups whose members are involved in racist attacks, it emerged today.Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde told a public meeting with the Northern Ireland Policing Board in Newcastle, Co Down, that members of some loyalist groups were involved in violence against eastern Europeans.

Stromecek

First I'd like to express my solidarity with the Romanians forced out of their homes, lets hope the example of the pastor, Malcolm Morgan will be embraced by the community at large as a direct challenge to the thuggery and discraceful xenophobia of this mob.

Also contrary to some previous posters, I feel it's also good time to discuss the aspects of Rascism in Northern Ireland without people automatically jumping on the defensive (or the attack, for that matter)

My experience of Belfast is limited to living there for a year recently, but it was quite illuminating at the same time. I accept that there is still strong sectarian divisions and racism is apparent in both Nationalist and Unionist communities but imho the most discernible difference is in leadership and perhaps ideology in both communties. It may come as a shock to some people here but in nationalist and republican areas, the leadership of Sinn Fein and other communtiy organisations have shown in welcoming, integrating and in fact celebrating immigrant people and their culture has been immense, culminating in events like a previous poster mentioned, Féile an Phobail and plenty of others. This approach has had the effect of preventing endemic racism and promoting tolerence and respect as well as strengthening local culture so as to not be threatened by anothers.

Contrast this with leadership shown by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UDA or the main Unionist politicians. The DUP being the largest Unionist party ostensibly supports integration but never follows through with anything of note, but tbh they don't seem to be the most tolerent of people to begin with. The normal working class loyalist areas seem bereft of any leadership in the most case and are still under the heavy influence of loyalist paramilitaries, instead of developing and evolving their local culture it seems they live in perpetual fear of it being destroyed, the siege mentality seems to be never challenged and this results in outward expressions of violent attacks and general intolerence of foreigners and events which express superiority and archetypal division.

I hope this post doen't come across as too generalised as I met grand people all over the city but I think part of the problem is unionist people continue to define themselves by a narrow and static definition of Britishness instead of letting their indentity thrive organically in the post conflict era also there's a palpable inferiority and persecution complex (perhaps deriving from their own immigrant origins) and of course the reliance on the failed leadership of the establised parties who never provide grassroot community structures in loyalist areas. These are just some of the reasons why I think endemic rascism and rascist attacks continue to plague loyalist communties but hopefully the establishment of things like Shankill alternatives will start the process of tolerance in loyalist communities in Belfast and the wider society in general.

djpbarry

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Who do you think is responsible for these racist attacks?

The perpetrators of the attacks?

Taxipete29

These attacks are disgusting. I have every sympathy for those affected.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/emergency-lodgings-offered-to-families-forced-to-flee-homes-415213.html

According to this police are playing down any hint of loyalist paramilitary involvement. They are basically saying it was youths who mobbed up and went on the rampage.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

There are links between racist attacks and loyalism before today hence justified finger of suspicion. This needs to be highlighted as its the elephant in the room.

I have no doubt there are racists in the loyalist community, just as there are, for example, terrorists in the republican community. I am also pretty sure there are just as many people in the loyalist community who are outraged by these attacks, as there are republicans outraged by the recent murders of soldiers and a policeman.

nice quote from the BBC

Mark Simpson BBC News wrote:

Looking at 115 Romanians huddled together on the floor of a Belfast church hall, it was possible to see the worst side of Northern Ireland - and the best - all at once.

The speed with which Pastor Malcolm Morgan and his team created a temporary home for 20 families was remarkable

At the same time, the sight of men, women and children looking so helpless and scared was a stain on Northern Ireland's international reputation.

Many of the families came to Belfast believing that the years of prejudice and narrow-mindedness were over. However, it seems that in some parts of the city, racism is the new sectarianism.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Haven't been in Hunters for a few years back. The last time I was I found it a bit scary. However I was in Ryan's bar a few weeks back - the foods lovely.



Now this made me laugh. Is this classified by you Junder. I know the area, I pass it everyday. As I said there is an influx of landlords in that area that hasn't gone down well with the 'locals'.

Let's get back on track here. Who do you think is responsible for these racist attacks?

actully is designated as a mixed area by the housing Exec

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisburn_Road

http://www.inyourpocket.com/ni/belfast/Shopping/Beyond_the_city_centre/venue/33881-Shopping_on_the_Lisburn_Road.html

https://www.discovernorthernireland.com/Designer-shopping-on-the-Lisburn-Road-Belfasts-Bond-Street-A2020

yer really your typical loyalist estate :rolleyes:. As for who is behind the racist attcaks, i have no idea, but since you seem to know parhaps you should pass on that information to the PSNI

gurramok

Here's the evidence of racist attacks linked to loyalism.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/pregnant-women-assaulted-in-racist-attacks-in-belfast-577459.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/30/race.northernireland

Racially motivated attacks, including pipe bombs, bricks hurled through windows and assaults, have risen sharply in Northern Ireland, according to the latest police figures. Loyalist paramilitaries are believed to be behind a significant proportion of the reported incidents, which have doubled in the past two years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3378927.stm

An anti-racism rally is planned for Belfast City Hall later this month.

It is also hoped the Loyalist Commission can be persuaded to help stop the attacks.

http://www.allianceparty.org/news/001104/rice_condemns_racist_loyalist_display.html

Alliance South Belfast representative Councillor Geraldine Rice has condemned a display of far right symbols by loyalist paramilitaries near Tate's Avenue bridge.

Cllr Rice said that a display of flags had been joined by a painted swastika and the initials 'KKK' close to Adelaide railway halt in South Belfast. The flags were removed on Tuesday afternoon, but the extremists' symbolism remains.

Cllr Rice, who highlighted the problem of racist graffiti in Carryduff recently, said it demonstrated the racist attitude and political ignorance of the Ulster Young Militants (the youth wing of the UDA), who are believed to be behind the graffiti.

Cllr Rice said: "I suspect the swastika and use of the Ku Klux Klan's name are more in tune with the far-right leanings of the UYM than their recent hijacking of the Israeli flag. There have been reports recently suggesting that far right groups in England, such as Combat 18, were less than pleased when they heard about the Israeli flag flying in loyalist areas, so perhaps they are trying to redress the balance as they see it.

"Instead, these young men have demonstrated exactly how ignorant and politically immature they are. The KKK is well known for its extreme racism, while the swastika is associated with Nazism. To paint these symbols beside various UK flags is grossly offensive, not just to Belfast's Jewish and black communities, but also to those ex-servicemen and women who served in World War II and the community as a whole.

"This is as contradictory as it is bizarre, given the place battles such as the Somme have within loyalism. I would call upon the UDA or UYM to remove these grotesque displays as soon as possible, before they embarrass themselves any further."

Note: The 'KKK' initials have been painted on walls in other parts of Northern Ireland, and have been seen in Ballymena.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3390249.stm

However, Davy Carlin of the Anti-Racism Network, which was set up five months ago to try to end the attacks, said loyalist elements were to blame.

"Whether or not these attacks are sanctioned by the UDA or UVF is not the issue, although the leaderships are turning a blind eye at the very least," he said.

He said right-wing groups such as the British National Party and Combat 18 were distributing leaflets in loyalist areas of Belfast, "trying to infiltrate the UDA", whilst the White Nationalist Group was targeting the Craigavon area of County Armagh.

"They go into loyalist working class areas where they are socially and economically deprived and blame the social problems on immigrants and minority ethnic groups," he said.

The UVF has denied the attacks
The BNP has had a more visible presence in the province recently and plans to field at least five candidates in the 2005 council elections.

Its leader, Nick Griffin, visited the loyalist heartland of east Belfast last month to outline its plans to expand in the province "as part of a campaign to try to halt a mass influx of immigrants".

There has been no indication that attacks have taken place in republican areas.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/nigerians-targeted-in-latest-racist-attack-in-belfast-158406.html

The incident has been linked to an ongoing campaign of racist attacks by loyalist paramilitaries in the area.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article992600.ece

The attack to which the UVF suspect is linked forensically happened on December 20, when a gang of up to four men broke into a house at Broadway Parade. They assaulted two pregnant Chinese women, one of them due to give birth within days, and broke a man’s nose by smashing him in the face with a brick. Windows were broken in two other houses in the area shortly afterwards.

Can'tseeme

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Another Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist bashing thread I see. Well just in case anyone didn't hear Martin McGuinness was on the radio saying there's no evidence loyalist paramilitaries were involved and he does not think loyalist paramilitaries were involved.

You can't expect the loyalist community to take responsibility for local thugs. I'm not going to pretend I think racism is anywhere near as big a problem in the republican community but its horrifically unfair to tar all loyalists with the same brush. As junder's posts clearly point out.

A part of me thinks sectarianism is now so out of hand that republicans are being anti-racist to spite the other side.

First of all no one is bashing Protestants/Unionist/Loyalists.

It's about addressing this horrible, right-wing element of unionism/loyalism. I seen Frankie Gallagher condeming the attacks. I also seen him at the anti-sectarianism protest at the City Hall in Belfast. This should be pointed out and welcomed. Is the loyalist/unionist politicans doing enough to address this? Imho, no. Feel free to disagree but this is nothing to do with 'Prod bashing' or " being anti-racist to spite the other side".

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

actully is designated as a mixed area by the housing Exec

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisburn_Road

http://www.inyourpocket.com/ni/belfast/Shopping/Beyond_the_city_centre/venue/33881-Shopping_on_the_Lisburn_Road.html

https://www.discovernorthernireland.com/Designer-shopping-on-the-Lisburn-Road-Belfasts-Bond-Street-A2020

yer really your typical loyalist estate :rolleyes:. As for who is behind the racist attcaks, i have no idea, but since you seem to know parhaps you should pass on that information to the PSNI

junder, you know very well the area just of the Lisburn Road, around Windsor Park and tates is a working class loyalist area. Who else could have attacked them?

djpbarry

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Is the loyalist/unionist politicans doing enough to address this? Imho, no.

What would you like them to do (aside from condemning the attacks, of course)?

Can'tseeme

djpbarry wrote: »

What would you like them to do (aside from condemning the attacks, of course)?

They could organise and attend anti-racism rallies in the area for a start.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

junder, you know very well the area just of the Lisburn Road, around Windsor Park and tates is a working class loyalist area. Who else could have attacked them?

Yes i do know full well which areas of south belfast are loyalist and the lisburn Road is not one of them. Windsor park which is next to the olyimpia area is on the far side of the railway tracks from lisburn rd and as i have already stated umteem times the railway line marks the border of whats is the loyalist area of olympia and the village from what is the lisburn road area. As for who attacked them, you seem to know more then anybody else.

junder

was not able to scan the full picture but enough to give you the gist of the poster. It was developed by the loyalist commisson ans is 1 if a series of poster that were put up in loyalist bars and estates. The caption reads Loyalist or Racist? you can't be both.

gurramok

Yet more evidence of loyalism involved.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0617/breaking46.htm

UDA leader wrote:

“We’re trying to talk to young people to encourage them not to do what they are doing,” he said.

Maybe he is referring to Romanian young people? :rolleyes:

junder

how is the fact that jackie tried to vist them "more evidence of loyalist involvement"?

gurramok

junder wrote: »

how is the fact that jackie tried to vist them "more evidence of loyalist involvement"?

Then what 'young people' is he referring to?

gurramok

Hope you are watching UTV Live news, lots of interviewees including Village residents are saying the perpetrators are from the loyalist Village area.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i would like to add to Conor's point. To a casual observer, whilst I am sure it was not the OP's intention, it would appear that some posters are posting not because they are sickened by these attacks, but because it is a good excuse to get stuck in to loyalists. How does that make them any better than the racist thugs who carried out this act?

Fred, that is the most thinly veiled attempt at character assassination I have ever seen. I'm disappointed that you would make a personal attack on me like that.

Saying I'm worst than a racist thug?
That's a step too far don't you think?

Even if the claim you made about "getting stuck into Loyalists" has any basis even you must acknowledge that there is a world of difference between robust political debate and physical violence directed at families with young children.