Romanians Victims of Racist Attacks

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Nah, that's fine. When someone goes to extreme lengths to avoid answering a question, it's usually obvious what the answer is.

Really?

I don't think you have the bottle to start the thread.

wes

Abaddon wrote: »

Opo has clearly and unequivocally said they don't condone the attacks. Then Opo asked a question, as there are two sides to every story and she, like the rest of you, have only heard one. Why are the rest of you so determined not to hear the other side? You are quite prepared to simply accept what the media tells you? That's not smart, and it's not healthy....

I am more than willing to listen to the other side, but a random blog is about a 1000 times less thrust worthy than the media. So far the other side, is one single random blog. It would be hardly be healthy to accept things said on random Internet sites no is it? Should I take the flat earth theory serious, because the flat earth society has a web page?!?

Abaddon

Why not? You accept the media reports as true, when you insist that Opo prove to the contrary. From what I heard, much of what is in that blog is correct. Guys smoking outside the pub taunted the marchers. No-one in the area wanted the Roma there. a glass was dropped, it just fell on the ground, and....well, you've read the media reports. It'll be interesting to see what comes out during the trial of the 2 teenagers they've charged, but a colleague from that area has told me a whole nuther story from the one I read in the papers, and it wasn't all too far from what i read in that dude's blog...

netron

opo wrote: »

In my attempt to find (google) the answers, I did come across this today:

http://skinflicks.blogspot.com/2009/06/pogrom-that-wasnt.html

The chap may be right or wrong, but he is from there and I suspect has a better handle on the situation than anything I have seen in the media.

i would tend to believe what that guy has written - has everyone forgotten the Italian State of Emergency declared in mid 2008?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2459968/Italy-declares-state-of-emergency-over-Roma-immigrants.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492802/Savage-murder-brought-backlash-Italys-migrants--laws-expel-them.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/02/italy.international

I dont know what the solution is , but its apparent that whatever European social policy is being implemented at the moment is clearly not working.

More importantly - i'd like to know how in gods name did the Roma end up in Belfast of all places?

netron

wes wrote: »

I am more than willing to listen to the other side, but a random blog is about a 1000 times less thrust worthy than the media. So far the other side, is one single random blog. It would be hardly be healthy to accept things said on random Internet sites no is it? Should I take the flat earth theory serious, because the flat earth society has a web page?!?

A 1000 times less trust worthy than the likes of the BBC who have insisted on using the word "Romanian" in all of their tv news reports?

You've got to be kidding - mainstream media has agendas to push as much as any blogger.

netron

bluewolf wrote: »

Cheers, all the newspapers I've read on it have been saying romanian
I'm starting to wonder if they themselves know the difference

they're doing it on purpose.
its bloody obvious they are.

from watching BBC coverage there is clearly an agenda or directive of "dont mention the Roma" - well in tv news coverage at least.

sceptre

opo wrote: »

Really?

I don't think you have the bottle to start the thread.

It's rather politer if people don't accuse others of "not having the bottle". Personal attacks are rather the opposite of the environment this forum should have so watch that line you're dancing along

Also, more that it's not particularly interesting to people who aren't you and isn't worthy of a thread of its own, at least not in this universe. Other people use the forum too. You can post on this thread if you stay on topic though, but only if (complaints or comments about this instruction may be sent to me by PM or put on the help desk, not in this thread).

Red Sleeping Beauty

Racism thrives during economic lulls . As does right wing politics. Or at least more "radical" politics.

Pretty lousy thing that's happened but I don't know how "surprised" we should be. The scale of the result of the attcks is surprising though.

Northern Ireland seems to be a bit of a pressure cooker if the recent events of the last few months are anything to go by.

sceptre

netron wrote: »

A 1000 times less trust worthy than the likes of the BBC who have insisted on using the word "Romanian" in all of their tv news reports?

You've got to be kidding - mainstream media has agendas to push as much as any blogger.

I once watched BBC News 24 refer to the "mythical river Ganges" every hour for eight hours before I snapped and reminded them by email that they were mystically showing video footage of the myth every time. You may be ascribing to malice that which can be explained by stupidity but the long discussion on that probably belongs in the News/Media forum. In any event, concluding that there must be an agenda isn't a definite conclusion when there's an alternative (the guy who writes the news and doesn't know the difference between Roma, Romanian and Romanii or where these descriptions have intersections). Malice and stupidity rarely intersect, even if their results can be similar.

nesf

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Racism thrives during economic lulls . As does right wing politics.

The hard left and the hard right thrive, though only rarely do either actually replace the mainstream. They usually just get enough protest votes for the national equivalent of a few MEPs, Councillors and perhaps a TD. It depends of course on how deep and long the lull is of course.

netron

sceptre wrote: »

I once watched BBC News 24 refer to the "mythical river Ganges" every hour for eight hours before I snapped and reminded them by email that they were mystically showing video footage of the myth every time. You may be ascribing to malice that which can be explained by stupidity but the long discussion on that probably belongs in the News/Media forum. In any event, concluding that there must be an agenda isn't a definite conclusion when there's an alternative (the guy who writes the news and doesn't know the difference between Roma, Romanian and Romanii or where these descriptions have intersections). Malice and stupidity rarely intersect, even if their results can be similar.

can you kindly speak in plain english and tell me what you really think.

netron

nesf wrote: »

The hard left and the hard right thrive, though only rarely do either actually replace the mainstream. They usually just get enough protest votes for the national equivalent of a few MEPs, Councillors and perhaps a TD. It depends of course on how deep and long the lull is of course.

i'm VERY confused by this - the bbc is simply NOT reporting on what i've read about them - that they were thieving and begging and that pissed off the locals.

so is the bbc actually lying about this?

netron

i also note that Martin McGuiness is popping up a lot in the BBC reports to give his "anti racism" soundbite.

but no reporter in the BBC ever asks Mr McGuiness - who allowed the Roma into Belfast? Did HE allow it , knowing full well the social conflict that would result? Could this be an SF power play to tar the Unionists as a bunch of racists?

opo

nesf wrote: »

The hard left and the hard right thrive, though only rarely do either actually replace the mainstream. They usually just get enough protest votes for the national equivalent of a few MEPs, Councillors and perhaps a TD. It depends of course on how deep and long the lull is of course.

What I have seen happen more often is the soft adaptation of the policies that brings these fringes success.

There really is no need for BNP style politics for example, if immigration is managed and enjoys public support, which for example, is one of the reasons we had a citizenship referendum in this country that enjoyed landslide support.

In effect, the mainstream steals their clothes and they simply disappear.

On topic, IMO, there is also an issue with unregulated/illegal immigration in N.I.

This again, has been largely ignored. This is the classic vacuum the BNP and racists thrive in. What is worrying is just how many people love maintaining and building that vacuum whilst claiming to desire the opposite effect.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

I never justified the attacks. Don't dare suggest I did.

You've been attempting to justify them by implication and sly mud slinging. When asked for a source for these attempts, you've come up with nothing.

Why?

netron wrote:

what i've read about them - that they were thieving and begging and that pissed off the locals.
.

Might you have a link to the place you read that...?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

You've been attempting to justify them by implication and sly mud slinging. When asked for a source for these attempts, you've come up with nothing.
...?

I DID NOT JUSTIFY THESE ATTACKS. I AM GOING TO REPEAT MYSELF. I DID NOT JUSTIFY THESE ATTACKS.

opo

opo wrote: »

Were you ever burned out of your home In Belfast as his family were? Isn't he a victim too or does he have to prove that to you as well? Why is he the "nut" whilst your a voice of sanity?

Yes. Yes I was. And because I say it on the internet, it's a fact.

Incidentally I am a Loyalist, from Belfast, and my parents were Romanians. I therefore think that means my opinion is the only correct one.

Tha Gopher

oscarBravo wrote: »

"I'm not condoning these attacks, but..."

Im not condoning them. I have no problem in admitting that yes, I am glad that any of these people who had not contributed tax to the economy or had been commiting crimes are going home. The government should have removed them before the criminals did.

Now, I will ask you for a third time:

if you see a group of Roma gypsy women standing by an ATM, do you feel the exact same as if you saw a group of old white haired women in terms of wanting to use said ATM?
Would you be more suspicious seeing a Roma talking to an old man at his door than you would be of a regular middle aged woman?
Finally: would you bother answering these questions honestly? It is clear as glass you, djpbarry and all the other usual suspects are as wary of this lot as the rest of us, why be a keyboard warrior?

An answer would be good, seeing as you previously told someone else

OcscarBravo wrote:

You're falling back on arm-waving to avoid answering a perfectly straightforward question

It is quite obvious Oscar that by refusing twice to answer the above you do not like the oul gypsies. But sure we cant be admitting that can we :rolleyes:

djpbarry wrote: »

Child benefit comes to a whopping €38 per week – would you relocate to Ireland for that, considering how expensive it is to feed and clothe said child in this country?
I]

Pathetic.
I know a single mother who only ever worked in a chip shop at weekends before becoming pregnant at 18. Sold the sob story- my mams house is overcrowded, I need to live near for support, my man is gone. Bang. She currently lives in a 3 bed house in a public pvt partnership estate a stones throw away from her mothers old place with a live in boyfriend on the quiet (not the kids father). If you are telling me you believe that a single mother in this country will get no more than 38 euro per week if she has not made substantial PRSI contributions you are lying through your teeth.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

I DID NOT JUSTIFY THESE ATTACKS. I AM GOING TO REPEAT MYSELF. I DID NOT JUSTIFY THESE ATTACKS.

Really? And whats the thrust of the following three remarks of yours....?

opo wrote: »

Would it upset you if a paeodophile was run out of an area with kids?

opo wrote: »

There is a difference between a family living in a house that are working and contributing to society and several families piled into a house, contributing nothing but a nuisance to society.

opo wrote: »

I am trying to establish the basics:

How many Roma were there to a home on the street?
What were they doing to support themselves?
How integrated were they?
Why were they there?

Etc.

Tha Gopher

Tha Gopher wrote: »

:)if you see a group of Roma gypsy women standing by an ATM, do you feel the exact same as if you saw a group of old white haired women in terms of wanting to use said ATM?
Would you be more suspicious seeing a Roma talking to an old man at his door than you would be of a regular middle aged woman?
Finally: would you bother answering these questions honestly? It is clear as glass you, djpbarry and all the other usual suspects are as wary of this lot as the rest of us, why be a keyboard warrior?

So we are only allowed to answer in one way? How bizarre. It seems like you have come up with the internet equivalent of holding your hands to your ears and shouting 'la la la la la la la' when you are not interested in a certain answer.

I wouldn't care if a Romanian or Irish person ewanted to use the ATM, or if an Irish person or Romanian were outside a door (???). Frankly I would be concerned about anyone who noticed these things.

I note your single mother in a chip shop story. I know a Romanian who is an absolute gentleman. Is it 1 all in the anecdote front then?

Tha Gopher

Nodin wrote: »

Really? And whats the thrust of the following three remarks of yours....?

Oh get over it. He came out and said he doesnt want unemployed Roma living in Ireland. Do you? Of course not, why not admit it?

Neither does Oscar seemingly by his constant avoiding of my questions, but you dont get all on a high horse to him about it. Again, I dont condone children being terrified out of their homes, but neither do I condone the lifestyle parents in this community generally lead.

Nodin

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Oh get over it. He came out and said he doesnt want unemployed Roma living in Ireland.

Has anyone even ascertained they were unemployed?

Tha Gopher

Nodin wrote: »

Has anyone even ascertained they were unemployed?

Given their unemployment rates in E Europe, until you can prove the majority had regular jobs then the onus is on you to disprove that they were unemployed.

Tha Gopher

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Given their unemployment rates in E Europe, until you can prove the majority had regular jobs then the onus is on you to disprove that they were unemployed.

Yes.

That's the right attitude.

Given the crime rates in Tallaght, one should presume every Dublin person is a crook.

Given the rates of beer sales in Ireland, one should presume every Irishman is a drunk.

And so on and so forth...

Tha Gopher

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes.

That's the right attitude.

Given the crime rates in Tallaght, one should presume every Dublin person is a crook.

Given the rates of beer sales in Ireland, one should presume every Irishman is a drunk.

And so on and so forth...

Nearly 100% of Slovak gypsies are unemployed. If 100% of the population of Tallaght secured a conviction in the past year it woiuld be a fair assumption that yes, they are mostly crooked.

Grow up and stop digging ffs.

Tha Gopher

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Nearly 100% of Slovak gypsies are unemployed. If 100% of the population of Tallaght secured a conviction in the past year it woiuld be a fair assumption that yes, they are mostly crooked.

Nope, can't make it out, you're slurring too much!

Gotta love the drunken fighting Irish and our funny logic. Shouldn't we all be out at some dole scam rather than pointing the finger at other people?

Tha Gopher

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope, can't make it out, you're slurring too much!

lalalalala Congratulations, you are now officially trolling having run out of logic.

Gotta love the drunken fighting Irish and our funny logic. Shouldn't we all be out at some dole scam rather than pointing the finger at other people?

Irish young people generally are drunks. Many are rowdy when drunk. What is your point?

Excession

Romania joined the EU under more restrictive rules than most of Eastern Europe. Citizens are free to travel here and to the UK but they can only take up employment if the employer applies for a work permit. Given the vast pool of labour available who do not need a permit to work I reckon its unlikely that any of these people were sponsored to come to Belfast for work.

They can register to be self-employed however and thats why you mostly see them busking or selling the Big Issues.

Tha Gopher

Tha Gopher wrote: »

lalalalala Congratulations, you are now officially trolling having run out of logic.

Why don't we let the mods moderate?

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Irish young people generally are drunks. Many are rowdy when drunk. What is your point?

And on the basis of your earlier logic, where stereotypes can be used to characterise individuals, would you have no difficulty if you were labelled a drunk and people started getting nervous any time you hung around an ATM machine or spoke to an old person?

wes

netron wrote: »

A 1000 times less trust worthy than the likes of the BBC who have insisted on using the word "Romanian" in all of their tv news reports?

You've got to be kidding - mainstream media has agendas to push as much as any blogger.

The BBC has a outside auditor come in and take a look at whether there coverage is balanced or not. So for all there faults, they are a 1000 times more thrust worthy than a random blogger.

wes

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Now, I will ask you for a third time:

if you see a group of Roma gypsy women standing by an ATM, do you feel the exact same as if you saw a group of old white haired women in terms of wanting to use said ATM?
Would you be more suspicious seeing a Roma talking to an old man at his door than you would be of a regular middle aged woman?
Finally: would you bother answering these questions honestly? It is clear as glass you, djpbarry and all the other usual suspects are as wary of this lot as the rest of us, why be a keyboard warrior?

An answer would be good, seeing as you previously told someone else

The reason people aren't answering your question, is that the completey irrelevant to the discsussion. You may as well ask about the tea prices in India.

bernardo mac

Have been reading the posts re.subject.It has certainly generated a lot of discussion and heated debate.I've no "beef" with th Romanian presence in Ireland but one cold and damp day in Limerick last March,I saw an a male adult Romanian successfully insist that a tearful and pleading child remain squatted on on a coat on a William St. footpath.Which she did.Begging in public,I believe,is illegal but the action of that adult is not just a serious breach of human rights, it is enslavement and morally reprehensible to boot. I'm sure that this was not an isolated incident or peculiar to a particular group in Ireland and it is certain the abuse of children is not confined to non nationals.And, no doubt, most people regardless of racial origin love and look after the children in their care.However,I do feel some guilt and regret that I did not, at least,report the public bullying and exploitation of a defenceless child to the Gardai.

bernardo mac

bernardo mac wrote: »

one cold and damp day in Limerick last March,I saw an a male adult Romanian successfully insist that a tearful and pleading child remain squatted on on a coat on a William St. footpath.Which she did.Begging in public,I believe,is illegal but the action of that adult is not just a serious breach of human rights, it is enslavement and morally reprehensible to boot.

That must be the first crime ever in that city. Or if not the first, surely the most serious. And you were exposed to all this on the street?

By the way, on an aside, how did you know the person was specifically Romanian? You speak the lingo and knew he wasn't, for example, Bulgarian or Moldovan?

P. Breathnach

bernardo mac wrote: »

Have been reading the posts re.subject.It has certainly generated a lot of discussion and heated debate.I've no "beef" with th Romanian presence in Ireland but one cold and damp day in Limerick last March,I saw an a male adult Romanian successfully insist that a tearful and pleading child remain squatted on on a coat on a William St. footpath.Which she did.Begging in public,I believe,is illegal but the action of that adult is not just a serious breach of human rights, it is enslavement and morally reprehensible to boot. I'm sure that this was not an isolated incident or peculiar to a particular group in Ireland and it is certain the abuse of children is not confined to non nationals.And, no doubt, most people regardless of racial origin love and look after the children in their care.However,I do feel some guilt and regret that I did not, at least,report the public bullying and exploitation of a defenceless child to the Gardai.

I can understand your feeling of guilt. I am sure that many of us have witnessed things that we should have done something about but not really got our thinking properly in gear until afterwards. I know that I have.

But, like Conor74, I wonder if the people were Romanian. And if they were Romanian, were they also Roma?

conchubhar1

does it matter if they were roma?

they are human - it doesnt even matter what country they are from, nevermind their ethnic group


the people who did this are scumbags - there is no defending it

ani_mal

Excession wrote: »

Romania joined the EU under more restrictive rules than most of Eastern Europe. Citizens are free to travel here and to the UK but they can only take up employment if the employer applies for a work permit. Given the vast pool of labour available who do not need a permit to work I reckon its unlikely that any of these people were sponsored to come to Belfast for work.

They can register to be self-employed however and thats why you mostly see them busking or selling the Big Issues.

well I agree with you, these people are Gypsies.they travel wherever they can and steal or beg for money on the streets, or go to charity shops in groups and take labels off and walk away saying they came wearing these clothes. I saw it few times here. We had them in Poland years back, they were sleeping in self made sheds next to main river in capital city. Eventually people found out they drive good cars and they dont collect money for food. Also when you gave them food they would throw it away in front of you. Poland goverment sent them back to Romania.
Not all Romanians are like this, people need to be aware of that.

TheInquisitor

First of all if they want to come to ireland they should learn English.

Secondly they should have some sort of decent education. Up to their version of the leaving cert at the least or/and they should have a job lined up.

ani_mal

ani_mal wrote: »

We had them in Poland years back, they were sleeping in self made sheds next to main river in capital city. Eventually people found out they drive good cars and they dont collect money for food.

Jaysus, that's shocking. Sleeping in sheds? That will be the ruination of this country. And to think we get so excited by minor things like the sexual abuse of tens of thousands of Irish children by Irish adults, when we should be looking out for shed sleepers. Millions being spent investigating gangland crime carried out by Irish thugs, and Romanians are out walking the streets, or worse still messing with the labels on clothes in charity shops? I am appalled.

ani_mal

These people have chosen to live this way. I know there are some gypsies living in Poland, working and socilaizing with society ok. they are not a hassle or pain in the Arse for Goverment.

But people like the ones from Belfast, chosen to lead life like this. When you near them, you better watch out for your wallet . sometimes they offer you some kind of hand future reading. Do not go for that. They work in organised groups, they watch where you keep money and in the less expecting moment you are left with no wallet

P. Breathnach

conchubhar1 wrote: »

does it matter if they were roma?

they are human - it doesnt even matter what country they are from, nevermind their ethnic group

the people who did this are scumbags - there is no defending it

Most Romanians are not Roma, and many (I suspect most) Roma are not Romanians.

I have already said in this thread that I believe people should be considered as individuals, not by ethnicity. The man observed by bernardo_mac should be judged on his actions, not on his ethnic group. But I am sufficiently realistic to know that the world does not work that way (and if I had been a starry-eyed optimist, some of the posts in this thread would have cured me of that). All I am aiming at here is to try to save non-Roma Romanians from being tarred with the same brush that is so liberally applied to the Roma people.

bernardo mac

I'm sure they were Romanian,if not Roma...Women,young girls would even kneel statuesque like in all weathers,not unlike the artistes of Las Ramblas in Barcelona.One might that type of pose as a form of work

conchubhar1

people know that not all roma are romanians and not all romanians are roma.......

not optimism, respect.

i know they were attacked because they were different, but people stating ''roma'' ''roma'' etc all throughout the thread is pointless

it was wrong, and condemned

ani_mal

I just wanted to ask question why people are doing this kind of acts.. but then I thought that in other countries is the same towards other nationalities.

TheInquisitor

Deleted User wrote: »

Jaysus, that's shocking. Sleeping in sheds? That will be the ruination of this country. And to think we get so excited by minor things like the sexual abuse of tens of thousands of Irish children by Irish adults, when we should be looking out for shed sleepers. Millions being spent investigating gangland crime carried out by Irish thugs, and Romanians are out walking the streets, or worse still messing with the labels on clothes in charity shops? I am appalled.

What are you trying to say conor? That the guards should not arrest roma for robbery and thuggery? Damn straight they should and ship um back home! Literally ship not fly.

TheInquisitor

TheInquisitor wrote: »

What are you trying to say conor?

Didn't think I was being too subtle.

Put another way, they sleep in sheds? They change labels on second hand clothes? They beg in Limerick, a city that is no stranger to extremely violent crime? Big deal. I'll survive this alleged Roma crime spree...

djpbarry

opo wrote: »

I posted a link to a blog that describes what I strongly suspect is that missing history.

Sure you do, because it plays to your own personal beliefs. But don’t expect anyone else to treat an anonymous blog as serious evidence.

Abaddon wrote: »

Why are the rest of you so determined not to hear the other side?

By all means feel free to present this “other side”.

TheInquisitor

What if they were your sheds and you now couldn't use them? What if they robbed you, you wouldn't mind? They beg EVERYWHERE, especially in dublin. They act like animals they should be treated like animals. Scum tried to rob me the night b4 they were caught. Hitting me in the face with papers when i was at an atm trying to take my money. I put two elbows deep into their faces. And then i started laughing at them when they started calling me a racist. I wasn't then but i can guarantee you I AM NOW!

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojojauauau/

djpbarry

netron wrote: »

More importantly - i'd like to know how in gods name did the Roma end up in Belfast of all places?

I think they migrated there.

netron wrote: »

A 1000 times less trust worthy than the likes of the BBC who have insisted on using the word "Romanian" in all of their tv news reports?

The problem with that is?

netron wrote: »

i'm VERY confused by this - the bbc is simply NOT reporting on what i've read about them - that they were thieving and begging and that pissed off the locals.

Source?

djpbarry

Tha Gopher wrote: »

I have no problem in admitting that yes, I am glad that any of these people who had not contributed tax to the economy or had been commiting crimes are going home.

You do, however, seem to be having trouble presenting evidence that any of “these people” had not contributed tax or had been committing crimes.

Tha Gopher wrote: »

if you see a group of Roma gypsy women standing by an ATM, do you feel the exact same as if you saw a group of old white haired women in terms of wanting to use said ATM?
Would you be more suspicious seeing a Roma talking to an old man at his door than you would be of a regular middle aged woman?

I dislike seeing anyone begging for money, anywhere; I don’t care what that person looks like – it’s irrelevant. You, on the other hand, seem to have a preference for certain types of people asking you for money?

Tha Gopher wrote: »

I know a single mother who only ever worked in a chip shop at weekends before becoming pregnant at 18. Sold the sob story- my mams house is overcrowded, I need to live near for support, my man is gone. Bang. She currently lives in a 3 bed house in a public pvt partnership estate a stones throw away from her mothers old place with a live in boyfriend on the quiet (not the kids father).

I presume you have reported her for committing welfare fraud?

Tha Gopher wrote: »

If you are telling me you believe that a single mother in this country will get no more than 38 euro per week if she has not made substantial PRSI contributions you are lying through your teeth.

Considering it’s (apparently) so easy to get a house from a local authority in this country, I presume you have applied for one?

All this is irrelevant considering the people in question resided in Belfast.

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Nearly 100% of Slovak gypsies are unemployed.

I’ve already shown that is not true.

conchubhar1

you cant argue with rascists

there is two sides to the story


people were attacked by scumbags

scumbags attacked the one side, on their belief that they were robbing or whatever


problem is the scumbags were probaly going on no or little evidence, and hate.