Heavy-handed Mod in Airsoft forum

Rew

Des wrote: »

Fair enough, I've just had a look in the forum.

Would there be any issue of the moderator moved the posts from the "news" thread to the OT Thread?



So they get deleted?

I think simply moving the "off topic" posts to the "off topic" thread would be an amicable solution to this.

Thats not really what the issue is here though, its only an example. In the past very OT posts in there have been removed after repeated warnings to keep it on topic. The problem is recently the threat was to ban users who went OT.

Rew

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

The main issue here is that the news thread serves well for some off topic banter regarding the news, as it always has done.

Actually there have been repeated warnings to stay on topic and keep it clean for news. Its been reported many times by posters annoyed about wading through the off topic stuff to find the news.

Stercus Accidit

Rew wrote: »

Actually there have been repeated warnings to stay on topic and keep it clean for news. Its been reported many times by posters annoyed about wading through the off topic stuff to find the news.

There's banter and then there's wildly off topic, once the banter is completely off the wall, moving it to off topic should get the message through that the conversation belongs there.

The threat of an infraction or a ban for cracking a joke about a new item will stifle any contribution to the thread, and I like reading the banter in that thread. There are websites that cater for airsoft news after all, we have a forum to simply discuss it, if people just want the news, they are in the wrong place.

gerrowadat

Rew wrote: »

To be clear about why i'm posting this stuff is I don't want a witch hunt against someone for things that all mods have done. I also think that gerrowadat has been very clear and referenced incidents (bar the 2 points we have straightened out).

If someone who gives there time to do the job is doing it wrong I think the least every could do is include the links the the incidents.

So far we have :

- The recent OTT banning of evilrobotshane
- Several threatening posts in airsoft news due do OT.
- Deleting a non-offensive image Masada posted in OT.
- Locking a thread wishing leaving cert people well.
- Locking this thread and ridiculing the idea of the event the person was proposing.
- Locking this thread for no reason.
- Locking this thread for no reason.

That's just from 5 minutes looking at the board.

The pattern here seems to be that The Master thinks the thread is pointless, or has run its course, or a question has been answered. So, along he comes with the padlock. The point I'm trying to make is that stuff is being done like thread locks, bans and post deletes with no explanation and no good reason.

I wouldn't say it would be accurate to call what we're doing here a 'witch hunt', since that would imply a lack of evidence and a lack of strong feeling from the community about the issue. From what we're seeing on this thread, there is no shortage of both. It would be doing a disservice to the other moderators if The Master were not singled out, much as people hate to do so.

Masada

Rew wrote: »

This is not the first feedback thread about an airsoft moderator. I'm sure I have at least 2 or 3.

If there was consensus on everything there would be no need for moderators and you need a bit of a thick skin to keep moderating.

Its no secret that there have been complaints about the moderation of the airsoft forum in the past but in most cases it has been about the overall style of moderation and not specifically relating to an individual mod. because of the nature of the sport and the equipment used, the moderation of topics has been justified in previous FB threads i have read.

Des wrote: »

Is the "Airsoft News" Thread an "Off Topic" Thread for Airsoft, or does it have one of them separately?

If it doesn't, have the Mods considered creating an OTT?

It could channel some of the "Banter" type posts.

We do have an off topic thread in which we have also seen examples of the masters over reactive moderation. but in the news thread the topic can often develop into conversation rather than only having news. the thread wouldn't appeal to me if the only posts allowed were those posting news.
The news thread was started in august 2008 and has been a very active thread with minimal call for the involvement of moderators. as of the last couple of months though, there has been a lot more warnings issued that i would see as being harsh.

Rew

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

There's banter and then there's wildly off topic, once the banter is completely off the wall, moving it to off topic should get the message through that the conversation belongs there.

The threat of an infraction or a ban for cracking a joke about a new item will stifle any contribution to the thread, and I like reading the banter in that thread. There are websites that cater for airsoft news after all, we have a forum to simply discuss it, if people just want the news, they are in the wrong place.

I don't agree. There are review sites out there yet we have a full forum for reviews, should we stop the reviews and tun that in to banter? Should we delete the off topic rules all together and merge the whole forum on to the the OTTT? Its a news thread for people to post and read news and people expect that when they read the title simple as that. Banning people for going way OT is too much but there is a line at which the topic is gone and the tread becomes pointless.

Rew

gerrowadat wrote: »

I wouldn't say it would be accurate to call what we're doing here a 'witch hunt', since that would imply a lack of evidence and a lack of strong feeling from the community about the issue. From what we're seeing on this thread, there is no shortage of both. It would be doing a disservice to the other moderators if The Master were not singled out, much as people hate to do so.

Didnt say it was a Witch Hunt just don't want it to be one

Stercus Accidit

Rew wrote: »

I don't agree. There are review sites out there yet we have a full forum for reviews, should we stop the reviews and tun that in to banter? Should we delete the off topic rules all together and merge the whole forum on to the the OTTT? Its a news thread for people to post and read news and people expect that when they read the title simple as that. Banning people for going way OT is too much but there is a line at which the topic is gone and the tread becomes pointless.

There is banter in the reviews forum, just becasue it happens to be more focused doesn't mean we have to apply strict focus that isn't within the nature of other threads.
And TBH, if you google the reviews for many airsoft items, you'll find a few of our ones, it is a succesfyul model in its own right, and this is a poor comparison.

Frankly, our airsoft news thread is just copy pasting and linking news from other websites, airsoft news, arnies, new itesm on gunner, rsov, when people read about a new item, they want to discuss it, and they want to feel comfortable doing so.
The only alternative would be a new thread for every new item, and that is insane, hence the one thread catering to all.

IMO once the bit of banter is relevant to the dicussion, even lossely so, it shouldn't be met with threats of bans, posts being deleted and so on.
Move the posts if you so wish, but the last few moderator posts in that thread have done nothing for the thread except sterilise it. It is a valid point, the news in that thread comes from elsewhere, the thread itself is for discussion, the nature of the forum is friendly and jovial, threaten that, and you lose out.

kdouglas

In the news thread, a certain amount of discussion around a news item is fine, but as above, when it starts getting too far off-topic a post asking to get it back on-topic should be sufficient to bump it back to where it should be.

Sparks

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

As has been pointed out before, the airsoft.boards.ie forum has pretty much been the birthplace of airsoft in this country, and it is a tight nit community that knows each other well. The forum serves as a brilliant way to network that community and bring in new members, having a welcoming relaxed tone is paramount to that success.

Its very easy for feedback to become very pragmatic, with outside perceptions of the forum based on the other forums on boards being me the measure of the airsoft forum. They cant be, the difference is huge.

To be fair about it, I'm an ex-Airsoft mod (not that I do airsoft, I just helped out at the start) and Rew is an ex-Shooting mod (another forum that has the same degree of off-boards knowlege of who's who), and I think he and I might agree that while there's a lot of injoking and the like on those kind of forums, the mods on Shooting and Airsoft have other things put on their shoulders to worry over, such as the fact that there are off-boards people who pretty much want the boards.ie forums to fold up and go out of business (and I think you know who they are for your own forum); such as the worst-kept-secret around, namely that the DoJ and Gardai actually have employees whose job includes monitoring those forums; and such as the ever-present risk of libel lawsuits. The mods have to keep all those things in mind all the time - users get to just post. The end result can often be that you're thought of as a humourless fascist dictator.

Which isn't to say I'm not a humourless fascist dictator, you understand.

Also, there isn't a moderator training course. There's no handbook on how to do the job right, there's no training in what's libellous and what's not - and believe me, that really is a good year's hard work to get straight in your head - and it's damn hard to judge what the DoJ will see as jocularity and what will see the DoJ drafting amendments to the law to ban outright. And of course, there's the worry that a poster may just be posting in order to make the forum look bad so that they can damage it by badmouthing it out there in the "real world". So if there really is a problem, and it's not just that you're not seeing what The Master has to cope with on a daily basis, I'd recommend cutting him a lot more slack. There but for the fact that you weren't as active in the forum, goes your sorry ass.

kinkstr

Im a regular reader of the airsoft forum, not so much a regular poster. Im not going to go through the airsoft forum and digg up examples of these examples of over moderation as some have been posted here already and more shouldnt be too hard to find. In its early days it had more than its fair share or troll attacks and general tomfoolery, which were in my opinion dealt with in a calm reasonable manner.
These days its a different story, people including myself feel that alot of the moderation decisions are over the top and all its achieving is posters feeling there not welcome to have a discussion or a bit of harmless banter without it being locked. I dont know the master personally nor have i ever skirmished with him to my knowledge so i will take people words thats hes a decent guy in real life.
Something does have to give though because if things keep going the way they are that airsoft forums is going to go completely to the dogs

gerrowadat

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair about it, I'm an ex-Airsoft mod (not that I do airsoft, I just helped out at the start) and Rew is an ex-Shooting mod (another forum that has the same degree of off-boards knowlege of who's who), and I think he and I might agree that while there's a lot of injoking and the like on those kind of forums, the mods on Shooting and Airsoft have other things put on their shoulders to worry over, such as the fact that there are off-boards people who pretty much want the boards.ie forums to fold up and go out of business (and I think you know who they are for your own forum); such as the worst-kept-secret around, namely that the DoJ and Gardai actually have employees whose job includes monitoring those forums; and such as the ever-present risk of libel lawsuits. The mods have to keep all those things in mind all the time - users get to just post. The end result can often be that you're thought of as a humourless fascist dictator.

Which isn't to say I'm not a humourless fascist dictator, you understand.

Also, there isn't a moderator training course. There's no handbook on how to do the job right, there's no training in what's libellous and what's not - and believe me, that really is a good year's hard work to get straight in your head - and it's damn hard to judge what the DoJ will see as jocularity and what will see the DoJ drafting amendments to the law to ban outright. And of course, there's the worry that a poster may just be posting in order to make the forum look bad so that they can damage it by badmouthing it out there in the "real world". So if there really is a problem, and it's not just that you're not seeing what The Master has to cope with on a daily basis, I'd recommend cutting him a lot more slack. There but for the fact that you weren't as active in the forum, goes your sorry ass.

Your argument would hold a lot more water were it not for the fact that most of the issues people have with moderation have nothing to do with anything the guards/DoJ would have an issues with. A picture of a dog? People wishing each other luck in the leaving? People not staying exactly on topic in a news thread?

It would also hold a lot more water if The Master were moderating the board on his own. He's not, he has the support of the rest of the mods, who are a lot more experienced at this than he is. The "Moderating is hard, you don't understand so stop questioning us" get-out-of-jail-free clause doesn't cover this, I'm afraid. It's no more hard on him than it is on the other moderators. He just doesn't do as good a job, and the situation is getting worse.

Sparks

gerrowadat wrote: »

It would also hold a lot more water if The Master were moderating the board on his own. He's not, he has the support of the rest of the mods, who are a lot more experienced at this than he is.

Which is why I think you're reading something wrong. There are four mods in Shooting - if any one of us went off the deep end, the other three are there to apply boots to the correct location to restore balance. I can't see the airsoft mod team working any differently.

The "Moderating is hard, you don't understand so stop questioning us" get-out-of-jail-free clause

1) It's not "so stop questioning us", or you wouldn't have this thread or this forum or Help Desk. It's "look at it from our point of view every once in a blue moon".
2) It's not a get-out-of-jail-free clause, it's how things are. We didn't set things up that way, but that's how it is, and either someone mods or there's no forum.

Stercus Accidit

Sparks wrote: »

1) It's not "so stop questioning us", or you wouldn't have this thread or this forum or Help Desk. It's "look at it from our point of view every once in a blue moon".
2) It's not a get-out-of-jail-free clause, it's how things are. We didn't set things up that way, but that's how it is, and either someone mods or there's no forum.

If I can just address this point, the community has looked at it in that way for a good while now, hence the friendly pm's and private feedback they have given, not to mention the delay in this feedback thread.

It is just that at this stage, enough people have tried the softly softly approach and ignoring the issue hoping with time and experience The Master would find his feet as a mod. Unfortunately, many feel this is not the case and it has resulted in this thread.


Its not a witch hunt, its not a mod versus indignant poster thread, its an actual legitimate feedback that I among others are hoping will lead to a positive outcome for our forum, which is objective number one.


The man himself is not in question, it is the moderator and his implemented moderations that are, and the more subtle (and not so subtle) hints that the forum which is the posters, aren't happy, that have gone unheeded.

Its just a pity it came to this, but at the end of the day, it needs addressing, and the other options have failed.

Ass

Oh look! Another call out thread for "the master" being a terrible moderator. Who would have thought...

Ass

snyper wrote: »

Permabanned for the comment you quoted sounds harsh, however as always im sure there are more factors involved.

...besides..isreali combat is much to cowardly to engage in 1 to 1 fights with kids. They prefer ariel bombings.

Haha. This is one of the first posts that you've posted that I've actually like. The Israeli army are baby killers lmbo.

Witcher

Ass wrote: »

Haha. This is one of the first posts that you've posted that I've actually like. The Israeli army are baby killers lmbo.

Can you post something constructive or not post at all please?

---

I've been on the airsoft forum nearly 2 years now and I've always seen it as my home on Boards like many others here, it's good for a laugh, having a gawk at gear and just general communicating with people you haven't seen in a while, it gets a bit rowdy sometimes but we all know there's a line, sometimes it's crossed and infractions are dealt etc but usually it's just a quick "lads, on topic" and that's the end of it.

There's no question of The Masters integrity in this and he has a lot of respect in the community and posts useful advice and is very helpful(he gave away a rail for an mp5 recently to a guy for nothing). But some of the decisions he's made are questionable, eg the leaving cert thread, that thread has popped up on the airsoft forum every year since it started and only this year was it locked so prematurely.

He's a good mod in some aspects, reported posts are swiftly dealt with but the manner in which it's done isn't usually 100%, he's not the only mod to make a mistake on the forum, far from it but some things have been overmoderated.

The Airsoft forum has always been a kinda "hands off" forum, trolls, spam, etc need to be deleted but usually when threads have run their course they simply die, but some of the threads that were locked had a longer run in them and would have made for good debate and laughter as always.

The Master is a top guy and if he just gave a little more leeway on threads and posts then he'd be a great moderator, but the tone has changed recently on the forum and that's a shame.

Ass

Blay wrote: »

Can you post something constructive or not post at all please?

Is that the Israeli type of constructive which covers blowing the **** out of the Palestinians, or the normal type of constructive?

Stercus Accidit

Good post Blay, and would be my sentiment also.

Beruthiel

Ass wrote: »

Is that the Israeli type of constructive which covers blowing the **** out of the Palestinians, or the normal type of constructive?

Please don't post in this thread anymore.
Your comments are unhelpful tripe and we can do without them.

moggser

I will agree with everything Gerrout has to say along with other thing
expressed with other members here

i was handed a infraction by said mod for posting in a lifeless thread
which was going no where in the adverts section and was never gonna be
posted in again by the op so i made a little joke as i saw fit
and the said Mod had a fit instead and gave me a yellow card
along with deleteing my post

any way he could be the nicest fella in the world at home or on the field
and he should really take that with him on to the forum or else dont bother
with the Modding game

i know its unpaid and ya get lil or no thanks for it but no need to kick the ffn boards door down and ban the fcuk out of every one who post's crookedly on the forum

i can give a little example where he deleted a load of posts from me and Lemming on a thread about crotchs and protection
and we was talking about it and it got a little funny in there but he got his pants in a bunch had a eppo and modded a mod and then closed the thread

im not looking for his balls to be nailed to the floor just yet but he should
calm down abit or just give up

Sparks

moggser wrote: »

ya get lil or no thanks for it

As evidenced by the comments on this thread...

moggser

Sparks wrote: »

As evidenced by the comments on this thread...

well it is a feed back thread about Said Mod
what do you expect??? folk to throw flowers at him??


no one like's a mad mod
ill give props where they are due but not here not to him

Stercus Accidit

Sparks wrote: »

As evidenced by the comments on this thread...

Absolute nonsense, gratitude is not relevant to a genuine complaint about the style of moderation on a forum. Just because you do something for free, doesn't mean you can do it without due diligence, the posters on the forum deserve better, and they deserve better than to be met with such a sarcastic dig at a legitimate expression of concern.

Moderators volunteer their time, that is of no relevance to an issue with the quality of that moderation, and feedback on moderation issues is certainly not measured in terms of gratitude.

Sparks

Well, take this bit for an example:

i made a little joke as i saw fit
and the said Mod had a fit instead and gave me a yellow card
along with deleteing my post

From a mod's point of view, what you did was to deliberately go into a thread where someone was trying to sell a bit of equipment and decide yourself that that thread was worthless and that you'd have a bit of fun with it. Which is (a) a bit arrogant towards the original poster on that thread and (b) breaking the forum charter ("3. No Thread Spoiling" and "7. this service is for selling / buying items, it is not for chit-chat."). You did that in a forum which is somewhat unique on boards.ie - only Shooting and Airsoft, as far as I know, have their own for-sale section and that only because of the legal quirks of our equipment.

So basicly, you stomped all over the rules in a sensitive part of the forum; and all you got was the evidence erased and a warning (not even an infraction - the very lowest sanction a mod can give on this site).

But somehow, this equates to the mod having a fit, and while you don't want his testes fastened to the ground with a metal spike, you do want him sacked for having the audacity to give you the very mildest wrist-slap he's allowed give you when you deliberately broke the rules because you thought the forum belonged to you.

Yeah, I'm not thinking your case has much merit if that's the kind of evidence you have on your side.

Stercus Accidit

One case of questionable merit < A whole forum of posters with legitimate grievance

moggser

Sparks wrote: »

Well, take this bit for an example:


From a mod's point of view, what you did was to deliberately go into a thread where someone was trying to sell a bit of equipment and decide yourself that that thread was worthless and that you'd have a bit of fun with it. Which is (a) a bit arrogant towards the original poster on that thread and (b) breaking the forum charter ("3. No Thread Spoiling" and "7. this service is for selling / buying items, it is not for chit-chat."). You did that in a forum which is somewhat unique on boards.ie - only Shooting and Airsoft, as far as I know, have their own for-sale section and that only because of the legal quirks of our equipment.

So basicly, you stomped all over the rules in a sensitive part of the forum; and all you got was the evidence erased and a warning (not even an infraction - the very lowest sanction a mod can give on this site).

But somehow, this equates to the mod having a fit, and while you don't want his testes fastened to the ground with a metal spike, you do want him sacked for having the audacity to give you the very mildest wrist-slap he's allowed give you when you deliberately broke the rules because you thought the forum belonged to you.

Yeah, I'm not thinking your case has much merit if that's the kind of evidence you have on your side.

hold your horses there fella
look in this thread and see how dead the thread was
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=60461827

its a sale thread where the op was never gonna reply in there and in my humour i posted this which was deleted

Quote:
Originally Posted by *DOBBY*
Hello Wendel.... Calling Wendel... Are you out there.
You shouldn't post something up for sale and then fall off the planet. Not very polite.
My last time for asking .. is the scar still up for sale.


just imagine the tune (arrested development )

mr. wendal, that's his name
no one ever knew his name cuz he's a know one
never thought twice about spending on an old bum
until i had the chance to really get to know one
now that i know 'em to give him money isn't charity
he gives me some knowledge, i buy him some shoes
and to think blacks spend all their money on big colleges
still most of you come out confused
go ahead mr. wendal
go ahead mr. wendal


now i thought that was a attempt at humour on my end
as the thread was dead and thats why i did it and ill admit it i
did piss all over the thread but was no need for that reaction was there ??

and NO I DID NOT FFN THINK I OWNED THE FORUM thank you very much
and i never once asked to have him outed did i???

"he should
calm down abit or just give up "

is what i said so stop trying to put words in my mouth im happy enough doing that my self

if your finished trying to nail me to the cross for having a opinion i'll bid you a good day:)

TheDoc

Sparks wrote: »

As evidenced by the comments on this thread...

I think that is going a bit far. Everyone understands moderation is a happless thankful job. I did it myself for years on other lively forums around europe and have done some work as a journalist where I get absolutey mauled for comments. ( When your reporting on a starcraft tournament and say the best player in the world had a limp performance you essentially get crucified)but if there is one thing I always did was take feedback I got from users and see if its feasible. I have done that with everything in life. Ignoring criticism is the height of arrogance.

I know that there is obviously moderation brotherhood kind of thing going on as with every walk in life. But some things just need to be looked at and reflected on. Its called savy and cop on. The situation should have been looked at carefully, the thread is dead, its over, the seller has dissapeared, and moggser a regular joker and comedian of the board made a joke.

Its about taking a second to weight the options and picking the most efficent one that keeps things in balance. Instead of the post deleted and an infraction, why not follow moggsers post with " Well this seller has gone awol so I'm going to lock this, if the seller wants it re-opened, please pm me and we will open it up to continue, and moggsers post will be deleted to keep the thread clean"

This way moggser cracks a joke, we all get our laughs, the op has the option of re-openening his thread should he re-surface, and moggser is aware that his post may be deleted for the sake of cleaning up the thread which he would be fine by.

There is a choice, where one completely pisses someone off, and a choice that gives benefit to everyone and no one gets pissed off.

In relfecltion to moggsers incident it was harmless, he quoted lyrics from a song reflecting the same name as the OP, from a sale thread that was seriously outdated and it was funny and harmless. If lemming didn't see fit to sort it then he must have found it harmless and humerous also.

Even the leaving cert thread.

Why not let it run for more then the master to get his thanks in. I would have liked to publicly give my wishes since I'd say a large proportion of the community are youngsters sitting exams. That thread could have been let go, gather a huge amount of best wishes, and giving some young guys a little smile when they read the forum, seeing all the best wishes. Then when the exams start lock it up, or it it goes insanely ****ty lock it.

Debating has always been a touchy one on the forum, whenever an iaa, iaa vs iasra, or doj thread appears its a hotspot for moderation with mods keeping eyes like a hawk. I love when threads are left to develop in a civil manner and healthy debate ensues. But I'd fear putting forward any topics for debate with the fear it would get locked.

I think a lot has to be said that this topic has been brought to your attention by a prevelant airsofter and boards user. And has been replied to by active boards users and active skirmishers. This isnt some troll having a mad whinge because he got banned for calling someone a ****. This is something that is generally felt as a problem, and as visitors to the site, and alot of us customers with paying subscriptions, would your company director (i.e devore) or whatever admin is in charge of this type, prefer that these things were left unsaid and the problem develop to a point that the forum turns into a ghost town?

We could let it turn into ghost town and have people ask " **** what happend to the forum, it was always hopping mad with stuff"

Or would you rather address the situation before it gets anymore serious?

I notice the master hasnt posted here yet. He may have alot to digest. I for one would be all up for giving him more time. It may be a case he thought that what he was doing was cool since we only brought this up now publicly and maybe the other mods havnt had input. He may have taken our pm's to him as " whingers with tears".

I for one would be all up for letting him continue and see how he reacts (along with the other mods) to the points being put here.

Sparks

moggser wrote: »

its a sale thread where the op was never gonna reply in there

Which isn't any of your business. It certainly isn't up to you to decide that, nor to decide to "fill the void" with humour against boards.ie rules. You might not like that, but that's how it is.

ill admit it i
did piss all over the thread but was no need for that reaction was there ??

No. You should have been infracted at least, not merely warned. You deliberately set out to break two of the charter's rules, it wasn't some accident or oversight or newbie mistake. And you were in return given the lowest possible sanction - and since the post was deleted, you didn't even get that sanction in public, it was private.

If anything, The Master was lenient.

NO I DID NOT FFN THINK I OWNED THE FORUM thank you very much

Yes, you did - you just don't seem to have realised that that's what you did. But your lack of realisation doesn't change what you actually did.

and i never once asked to have him outed did i???

Yes, you did - you want him to give up unless he acts more leniently towards you. Frankly, I don't see how he could have in that thread without actually failing to be a mod.




Stercus, I'll grant you that's true, but I think this particular example is a pretty good demonstration of the difference between what the average poster sees and what a moderator sees. And also of the degree of indignation the average poster displays when corrected, no matter how lightly over how obvious an offence or mistake. That's why you'd have to make your case a bit more thoroughly than the "all my mates say he's crap" argument others have put forward.

Sparks

TheDoc, saying a moderator's actions are unpopular with the posters is insufficient reason to criticise that moderator - because half the time, the job by definition entails doing something that won't be popular. Sufficient reason would be to show that the moderator did the wrong thing - whether that be breaking the charter himself, or being overly unbalanced (a small amount of bias is only human, no matter how hard you try to be even-handed), or for that matter, failing to be sufficiently harsh where it's required. A moderator who's so afraid to be unpopular that he doesn't act when he should and gets boards.ie a lawsuit as a result has failed and may cause the loss of the entire forum - that's something that seems to be forgotten a lot in here.