Has the world gone mad or am i too soft?

time lord

I carry out enforcement work for a large Local Authority.

Today I was told to go into a house who had a car for sale in their front garden. Only one. With small home made for sale sign in windows.

I was to inform them that this selling/advertising of a car was against planning and to cease such activiety.

I told the boss I thought this was barmy but i wasn't given any discretion. It is a private house and technically he is right but thats besides the point i think.

The pressure for this course of action was apparently comming from a large garage who was threating non payment of rates.

Not the only one today either! I want a mask. Worse than being a clamper.

Is it madness or am I too soft? I think if they pursued it the local judge would feck out the case anyhow..

Matt Simis

Youre telling us a local Car Dealership raised a compliant against a private individual's car sale? What do you mean the garage was threatening "non payment of rates".. what rates?

mike65

Local business rates, businesses pay rates you know.

time lord

Matt Simis wrote: »

Youre telling us a local Car Dealership raised a compliant against a private individual's car sale? What do you mean the garage was threatening "non payment of rates".. what rates?

They pay rates like a big tax to the Local Authority. It is set every year at the elected council meeting and non payment by business' is always pursued.

The garage owner represents a lot of garages but I didnt take the call from him. I was the consequence of the call

unkel

mike65 wrote: »

Local business rates, businesses pay rates you know.

But this was clearly a private sale? Although I suppose one just cannot erect a for sale sign without permission...

pcardin

Local mafia dictates the rulles! :cool:

Matt Simis

mike65 wrote: »

Local business rates, businesses pay rates you know.

Yeah, but we allow a business, a on-the-brink financially car dealership for gods sake to dictate if, when and terms of their rates? Cant be doing well at all if a single person selling one car in their own garden is a threat to them. Pathetic.

Senna

Your boss is a spineless tool.
The garage threatened him with not paying their rates, they cant fecking choose not to pay rates, its not a donation, its a Tax.
I cant choose not to pay my taxes because they'll just be given to Anglo! Which is a far better reason than a private car sale advertised on private property near a commercial property, legal or not.

mike65

I wasn't defending garages just pointing out a fact.

robtri

I believe, that you had no right to do that, if this was in their own private property, and the signs where in the window of the car, no planning laws where broken or any legal laws....

Seth Brundle

I agree with robtri. I'm not aware of any legal mechanism that would allow you to do this and I certainly can't think of one under the planning acts!

briana7214

if you need planning to put a for sale sign in your car window then surely you need planning to put up a for sale sign outside your house!!!!!!
"so get all estate agents to remove all their signs first" i would say to you sir if you came to my house!!
Have 2 cars in my yard with for sale signs, Bring it on !!! LOL

sparklepants

time lord wrote: »

I carry out enforcement work for a large Local Authority.

Today I was told to go into a house who had a car for sale in their front garden. Only one. With small home made for sale sign in windows.

I was to inform them that this selling/advertising of a car was against planning and to cease such activiety.

I told the boss I thought this was barmy but i wasn't given any discretion. It is a private house and technically he is right but thats besides the point i think.

Running a car sales business in a private residence without planning permission is illegal. Selling your own private car in your driveway on the other hand, with or without a "for sale" sign does not constitute a car sales business and is not against any law. Your post is unclear about this. If your post is genuine, then the private house was being used to run a business and the car you saw was just one of many. Local authorities have no interest in pursuing private sellers with one car for sale parked on private property.

The pressure for this course of action was apparently comming from a large garage who was threating non payment of rates.

Hogwash. Businesses must pay rates without preconditions. No local authority would act on such a threat from a car dealer.

Not the only one today either! I want a mask. Worse than being a clamper.

Is it madness or am I too soft? I think if they pursued it the local judge would feck out the case anyhow..

As I said above, if this work is genuinely being carried out on behalf of a local authority you should proceed with a clear conscience. Businesses must observe the law.

alo1587

If the car is on private property and the owner doesn't sell cars for a living,you have no right to tell him to take down his signs.its his private property,he can do what he likes.If you had a 'dog for sale' sign in your front garden,do you think your local pet shop would be entitled to complain and tell you to take down your sign?

time lord

sparklepants wrote: »

Running a car sales business in a private residence without planning permission is illegal. Selling your own private car in your driveway on the other hand, with or without a "for sale" sign does not constitute a car sales business and is not against any law. Your post is unclear about this. If your post is genuine, then the private house was being used to run a business and the car you saw was just one of many. Local authorities have no interest in pursuing private sellers with one car for sale parked on private property.
Hogwash. Businesses must pay rates without preconditions. No local authority would act on such a threat from a car dealer.
As I said above, if this work is genuinely being carried out on behalf of a local authority you should proceed with a clear conscience. Businesses must observe the law.

Not hog wash. You cant speak for all L.A's and definately not the one I work for.
Up until yesterday they didn't have an interest. Now mine does.
L.A.'s will chance their arm on a regular basis. I dont want this to turn into a legal thread. I've attended court for over a decade to represent the council and still see many court appearances as a roll of the dice; like who is sitting today, what mood is the judge in. You can win easily one day and the next day the same case would be thrown out.
And as for the legality of rates, when you have tea with the people who set the initial rates you soon see how many figures are plucked from the sky.

mickdw

time lord wrote: »

Not hog wash. You cant speak for all L.A's and definately not the one I work for.
Up until yesterday they didn't have an interest. Now mine does.
L.A.'s will chance their arm on a regular basis. I dont want this to turn into a legal thread. I've attended court for over a decade to represent the council and still see many court appearances as a roll of the dice; like who is sitting today, what mood is the judge in. You can win easily one day and the next day the same case would be thrown out.
And as for the legality of rates, when you have tea with the people who set the initial rates you soon see how many figures are plucked from the sky.

You are not intitled to tell the home owner to take it down. I suggest you tell your boss this and refuse to carry out this action. If the car was in public place yes or possibly on parking area outside of house boundary fence but parked in the drive, you must be joking.
You would have to form the opinion that he is carrying out a business activity. If the owner can show that this car is registered to him for any reasonable period f time, you cannot reasonably form this opinion.
Has he got numerous cars on Site?
Numerous cars reg'd to him?
Different car for sale each week?

If none of the above, I woud refuse to visit that house. The country is gone mad.
Even if you did decide to go ahead and issue a notice to cease to the home owner, what could you realistically do about it?

crocro

briana7214 wrote: »

if you need planning to put a for sale sign in your car window then surely you need planning to put up a for sale sign outside your house!!!!!!
"so get all estate agents to remove all their signs first" i would say to you sir if you came to my house!!
Have 2 cars in my yard with for sale signs, Bring it on !!! LOL

Housing for sale signs are exempted development as specified in Planning and Development Regulations, 2001. 2nd Schedule, Part 2, Class 9

Advertisements relating to the sale or letting of any structure or other land (not being an advertisement structure) on which they are exhibited.

Class 10 seems to exempt advertisement for general goods for sale, where the premises is not normally used to sell goods

Advertisements relating to the sale on or before a date specified therein of goods or livestock, and exhibited on land where such goods or livestock are situated or where such sale is held, not being land which is normally used, whether at regular intervals or otherwise, for the purpose of holding sales of goods or livestock.

The OP is right that going to court is a lottery. The LA will have more money to gamble on legal fees than any individual.

mickdw

Lookin through those regulations as linked above, a small sign advertising sale of goods on site is allowed provided a business activity is not being carried out.
It again comes back to the opinion of whether the home owner is carrying out a business. I think it would be both foolish and reckless of any local authority to pursue this in court. Public money being wasted etc

sparklepants

time lord wrote: »

Not hog wash. You cant speak for all L.A's and definately not the one I work for.

You say that the actions that you've had to undertake were as a result of a business threatening to withhold outstanding payments - this is hogwash. Not paying your rates results in a court summons - it certainly doesn't spur a local authority on to take action in your interests. One would want to be naive to believe that a local authority could somehow be won over by not paying them what they're owed.

I dont want this to turn into a legal thread. I've attended court for over a decade to represent the council and still see many court appearances as a roll of the dice; like who is sitting today, what mood is the judge in. You can win easily one day and the next day the same case would be thrown out.

This is a completely a different issue. You're now referring to the inconsistency of court rulings which has nothing to do with your OP.

And as for the legality of rates, when you have tea with the people who set the initial rates you soon see how many figures are plucked from the sky.

That these charges for businesses can be arbitrary and unfair is perhaps true, but there you're drifting way off topic again.

As I said, if you've genuinely visited these private houses that you speak of, then it's because the local authority believes that car sales businesses are being conducted there, and therefore their actions are justified. I note that you haven't denied that this is their view.

Beta Ray Bill

Isn't that the same as not paying tax?

It is my opinion that as soon as they threaten not to pay tax as "leverage" to get their own way, that the business, property and stock should be seized by the local authority. If don't pay VRT my car gets seized if businesses don't pay business taxes then the business is seized... simple.

that is pathetic

If I was told to take down a for sale sign in the window on the request of a Garage I would ask; what garage?

I'd pay them a visit myself, and make their life as "difficult" as possibly could.

OP can you give us the name of the local Garage so as that I can be sure to NEVER use them! EVER!

sparklepants

mickdw wrote: »

Lookin through those regulations as linked above, a small sign advertising sale of goods on site is allowed provided a business activity is not being carried out.
It again comes back to the opinion of whether the home owner is carrying out a business. I think it would be both foolish and reckless of any local authority to pursue this in court. Public money being wasted etc

I agree, which is why I believe that it only happens when the local authority has evidence that the home owner is conducting a car sales business.

I've never heard of anyone being brought to court by a public authority for trying to privately sell his/her second-hand car on his/her own property. Time Lord suggests that his local authority would bring such a private seller to court to "chance their arm" but doesn't refer to any such cases.

No offence to you op but if it were me that warning would go in ear and out the other. What I do on my private property is my business and no one elses.

I would say a judge would throw out the case and give the L.A an ear full for wasting court time, he would be much more interested when the dealership came before him for failing to pay tax though.

Seth Brundle

time lord wrote: »

Not hog wash. You cant speak for all L.A's and definately not the one I work for.
Up until yesterday they didn't have an interest. Now mine does.
L.A.'s will chance their arm on a regular basis. I dont want this to turn into a legal thread. I've attended court for over a decade to represent the council and still see many court appearances as a roll of the dice; like who is sitting today, what mood is the judge in. You can win easily one day and the next day the same case would be thrown out.
And as for the legality of rates, when you have tea with the people who set the initial rates you soon see how many figures are plucked from the sky.

OK then - what offence (as in which section of which Act, etc.) were they committing?
In your original post, there was no mention that they were a dealer and in fact it points towards a private sale. You also mention that the offence they were not allowed to sell or advertise a car in their garden (the sign being inside the car).
I put it to you that you are talking/writing crap and I look forward to you proving me wrong!
All that I can see is that you are seemingly harassing members of the public. I do hope that the instructions from your boss are in writing as otherwise it will be your ass on the line when the complaints are made.

time lord wrote: »

I carry out enforcement work for a large Local Authority.

Today I was told to go into a house who had a car for sale in their front garden. Only one. With small home made for sale sign in windows.

I was to inform them that this selling/advertising of a car was against planning and to cease such activiety.

I told the boss I thought this was barmy but i wasn't given any discretion. It is a private house and technically he is right but thats besides the point i think.

The pressure for this course of action was apparently comming from a large garage who was threating non payment of rates.

Not the only one today either! I want a mask. Worse than being a clamper.

Is it madness or am I too soft? I think if they pursued it the local judge would feck out the case anyhow..

time lord

kbannon wrote: »

OK then - what offence (as in which section of which Act, etc.) were they committing?
In your original post, there was no mention that they were a dealer and in fact it points towards a private sale. You also mention that the offence they were not allowed to sell or advertise a car in their garden (the sign being inside the car).
I put it to you that you are talking/writing crap and I look forward to you proving me wrong!
All that I can see is that you are seemingly harassing members of the public. I do hope that the instructions from your boss are in writing as otherwise it will be your ass on the line when the complaints are made.

Replys like this make me laugh. When people say things like "I put it to you" etc ha ha.
When you are the lower rung on a ladder you do what your told. I guess I wouldn't be able to prove night or day to your goodself.
Its not the army and nobody gets instructions written down bar texting. I do what I'm told and will contiue to do so. Saying no to a manager in our place is job suicide. Now carrying out a job in a crap fashion is usually the way out.
Whether they were a dealer or not is not decided by me; again I'll carry out given tasks in good faith.
Personally I think it is a silly endevour but there you go.

time lord

Beckett Deep Vessel wrote: »

No offence to you op but if it were me that warning would go in ear and out the other. What I do on my private property is my business and no one elses.

I would say a judge would throw out the case and give the L.A an ear full for wasting court time, he would be much more interested when the dealership came before him for failing to pay tax though.

Very true but when youre in the bosses office you dont let him see your true reaction.

time lord

sparklepants wrote: »

You say that the actions that you've had to undertake were as a result of a business threatening to withhold outstanding payments - this is hogwash. Not paying your rates results in a court summons - it certainly doesn't spur a local authority on to take action in your interests. One would want to be naive to believe that a local authority could somehow be won over by not paying them what they're owed.
This is a completely a different issue. You're now referring to the inconsistency of court rulings which has nothing to do with your OP.
That these charges for businesses can be arbitrary and unfair is perhaps true, but there you're drifting way off topic again.

As I said, if you've genuinely visited these private houses that you speak of, then it's because the local authority believes that car sales businesses are being conducted there, and therefore their actions are justified. I note that you haven't denied that this is their view.

A threat doesn't have to be valid to be said. I told you what was said, your reaction or opinion to it does not change what was said.
I never said my managers decision was definately right, I asked "was the world gone mad" etc...

Seth Brundle

time lord wrote: »

Replys like this make me laugh. When people say things like "I put it to you" etc ha ha.
When you are the lower rung on a ladder you do what your told. I guess I wouldn't be able to prove night or day to your goodself.
Its not the army and nobody gets instructions written down bar texting. I do what I'm told and will contiue to do so. Saying no to a manager in our place is job suicide. Now carrying out a job in a crap fashion is usually the way out.
Whether they were a dealer or not is not decided by me; again I'll carry out given tasks in good faith.
Personally I think it is a silly endevour but there you go.

Hang on a second - you are the one harassing people. You call to their house and try to intimidate people into doing what your boss says and you don't question it? At all? Someone, sometime is not going to react the way you want. What kind of company do you work for (don't particularly want names).
As for my "I put it to you" comment, I was making fun of your court experience!

Anyhow, you still haven't answered my question regarding the specific law being broken (seeing as you were so sure of your position in post #15). Until you can list the law, I will assume that you are talking crap!

CDfm

time lord wrote: »

I carry out enforcement work for a large Local Authority.

Today I was told to go into a house who had a car for sale in their front garden. Only one. With small home made for sale sign in windows.

I was to inform them that this selling/advertising of a car was against planning and to cease such activiety.

Is it madness or am I too soft? I think if they pursued it the local judge would feck out the case anyhow..

Its your job to do it and it is what you are paid to do. If the people dont take the sign down then its up to your boss to take appropriate action and not you and prosecute.

Your report should reflect that it appeared to be a private sale. However - if you were asked to go to the same house next week and next month and there are different cars there then you will feel a complete plonker if you dont follow the procedure first time and record the facts.

20/20 vision is great but you are an officer of the Local Authority.

My last house had a truck park outside nightly and a cresh withweird parking. I complained to the Council and got the run around though it was a cul-de-sac. So do your inspections and enforce.

antodeco

OP, what is the actual point of this thread?

Are you complaining about your job?
Are you complaining about your boss?
Are you stating that the owner of the car was acting in an illegal fashion?
Are you saying L.A. laws are against the 'little person'?

IM sorry, but I am very confused as to what this thread is actually about.

time lord

time lord wrote: »

Very true but when youre in the bosses office you dont let him see your true reaction.

I was referring to the person you were warning about the car rather than when you were getting orders from your boss.

time lord

kbannon wrote: »

Hang on a second - you are the one harassing people. You call to their house and try to intimidate people into doing what your boss says and you don't question it? At all? Someone, sometime is not going to react the way you want. What kind of company do you work for (don't particularly want names).
As for my "I put it to you" comment, I was making fun of your court experience!

Anyhow, you still haven't answered my question regarding the specific law being broken (seeing as you were so sure of your position in post #15). Until you can list the law, I will assume that you are talking crap!

It will be a rare day when I know all the planning laws. I think you dont know what it is to be told to do somthing and just like to tell people they are talking crap. I passed on the message given to me to pass on word for word. As for making fun of someones experience, thats a rare gift you have.
ps you havent got a beemer for sale in your front garden have you? ha ha

time lord

antodeco wrote: »

OP, what is the actual point of this thread?

Are you complaining about your job?
Are you complaining about your boss?
Are you stating that the owner of the car was acting in an illegal fashion?
Are you saying L.A. laws are against the 'little person'?

IM sorry, but I am very confused as to what this thread is actually about.

Has the world gone mad or am I too soft?

Matt Simis

No, the world is the same as ever, people blindly following instructions as they want to keep themselves secure. ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ and all that..

One day you will be held accountable and "just following orders" isnt going to cut it.


PS: Please multi quote in the same reply, not in 5 different ones.

time lord

Matt Simis wrote: »

No, the world is the same as ever, people blindly following instructions as they want to keep themselves secure. ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ and all that..

One day you will be held accountable and "just following orders" isnt going to cut it.


PS: Please multi quote in the same reply, not in 5 different ones.

Evil yeah right.

CDfm

time lord wrote: »

Evil yeah right.

You laugh now - but will you laugh when the tar and feathers come out.

time lord

CDfm wrote: »

You laugh now - but will you laugh when the tar and feathers come out.

Time to depart now from the offers of bondage however tempting, bye bye.

Churchy

I think you've just been trolled folks.

He spends a decade as a professional in court yet responds with "ha,ha".

---

Dont pay your rates in the North and they'll have you in court , cant see it being any different over the border. Its a tax - you pay it or else.

Seth Brundle

time lord wrote: »

It will be a rare day when I know all the planning laws. I think you dont know what it is to be told to do somthing and just like to tell people they are talking crap. I passed on the message given to me to pass on word for word. As for making fun of someones experience, thats a rare gift you have.
ps you havent got a beemer for sale in your front garden have you? ha ha

So you pretend to have been representing the LAs for a decade in court but have no idea of what law you are enforcing.
Secondly, if an LA wanted to enforce something then they usually send out a letter rather than the village idiot someone who just knocks on a door and says "you have to stop selling that car" with no knowledge of why they should.
Thirdly, I know what it is like to be told what to do. however, I have the intellect to know that if I am putting myself in a position that could endanger me or my career, I would be sure to have proof that it was not my decision.
Fourthly, I have several gifts. making fun of people isn't a gift, its a hobby!
Lastly, actually I have a beemer for sale in my garden. Please come around and tell me that I can't sell it. What with my hobby of making fun of people and your lack of knowledge of peoples basic legal rights, it would be fun to see you run off with your tail between your legs!

I still stand by my point that you are talking crap. I'm not going to lock this thread for trolling because it will be fun to see you in time trying to post here on a seriosu matter and nobody taking you seriously!

galwaytt

time lord wrote: »

....... When you are the lower rung on a ladder you do what your told. ....... Whether they were a dealer or not is not decided by me; again I'll carry out given tasks in good faith.
Personally I think it is a silly endevour but there you go.

.....doing what 'you're told', even if that's at the very least morally wrong, but also quite possibly illegal, will be no good, and no defence to you if, the person you're harassing either attacks you, or takes you to court. We'll see where you're boss stands, then. So I'd be saving all those texts, if I were you, you might just need them in your defence of a civil suit. Or from a hospital bed.

If there's a management issue here, go to your union, and let them point out to management that you won't be carrying out any dodgy practices, no matter what their pay-grade.