lisbon - irish budget

conchubhar1 · 18-06-2009 2:08am #1

Would one need a knowledge of the irish constitution to read and understand the lisbon treaty?

how much is changed in the constitution?

i think i should just open a lisbon questions thread lol

''This means that any national government may veto such a proposal''

that was in reference to the council - does that mean cowen has the oppurtunity to veto it?
or does it work differently? ah nm, seems it needs to be agreed by the dáil and the seanad

''High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.''
who is this? how are they elected>?

nm - ''One Commissioner will hold the position of the newly created High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.''

are all areas of law etc to be voted on using qmv, double majority or anominity?
or are there other methods of voting?

''EU exclusive competence
The Lisbon Treaty states that the EU has exclusive competence in a number of areas including the customs union, the establishment of the competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market and monetary policy for the Member States whose currency is the Euro.''

are those the only areas the eu has exclusive competence?

on a side note - what is the importance of the council of europe?
why did belarus not join in 1993 or since?
since russia is a member, is it likely they will join the eu in the future?
140 million - wow. that wuld vastly change the eu - not to mention it is a global power and would be a huge step in friendliness and healing old wounds etc

how exactly nd where does the veto work?
how is this changed in lisbon

why cant the lisbon treaty be explained like all budgets are

ie - voting changes from blah to blah
human rights chartered introduced etc....

i am aware it is vastly more complicated - but not immpossible to explain whats different and whats new

PopeBuckfastXVI · 18-06-2009 10:27am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i was just thinking there

why cant the lisbon treaty be explained like all budgets are

ie - voting changes from blah to blah
human rights chartered introduced
etc....

i am aware it is vastly more complicated - but not immpossible to explain whats different and whats new

Yes it has been done, it was done for the first one. Unfortunately some on the 'no' side pretty much accused the referendum commission of lying, or 'covering up' changes, or not fully describing changes etc.

http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/

Also have a look at the Lisbon Treaty microsite from the EU themselves.

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/index_en.htm

PopeBuckfastXVI · 18-06-2009 10:31am

Also here's a nice youtube video going through the changes to the Parliament that Lisbon makes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCUF5t1kRlI

conchubhar1 · 18-06-2009 2:41pm

well

i would like it to be done by those who debated and help draft the treaty - at least on the irish side

like i dont want harney explaining a finance bill - for example

who made up that commission?

PopeBuckfastXVI · 18-06-2009 2:45pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well

i would like it to be done by those who debated and help draft the treaty - at least on the irish side

like i dont want harney explaining a finance bill - for example

who made up that commission?

I'd be perfectly happy with Harney explaining a finance bill, if she explained it accurately.

You can read about refcom here:
http://www.refcom.ie/en/

PopeBuckfastXVI · 18-06-2009 2:52pm

Also, for what it's worth, the Minister for Finance doesn't generally sit down and 'explain' the budget, he only lists its measures.

The media then generally puts together reports about what's changing etc, in an easy to understand format, and publishes them.

Hitman Actual · 18-06-2009 2:57pm

This White Paper is probably the closest you'll get to what you're looking for.

conchubhar1 · 18-06-2009 4:12pm

cheers

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 3:40am

few new questions at the start - if anyone would care t answer them

i would be grateful

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 5:55am

''Rules and general principles concerning mechanisms for control by Member States of the Commission's exercise of implementing powers

EU laws are made by the Council alone or by the Council and the European Parliament. Those laws must then be implemented by the Member States and the institutions of the EU. The Commission is the main institution with implementing powers. The Treaties provide for the control by the Member States of the Commission's exercise of its implementing powers. This means that the Council lays down the rules and general principles about how the Commission exercises its implementing powers. At present, these rules and general principles must be agreed unanimously. The Treaty of Lisbon proposes that they be agreed by QMV.''

what?

again if anyone can explain this - no snarky smart ass comments you know who ye are - i would be grateful

thanks

Hitman Actual · 19-06-2009 11:05am

conchubhar1 wrote: »

''Rules and general principles concerning mechanisms for control by Member States of the Commission's exercise of implementing powers

EU laws are made by the Council alone or by the Council and the European Parliament.

EU legislation is proposed by the Commission (not stated there, obviously). This either gets debated and finalised by the Council (of Ministers) on its own, or by the Council (of Ministers) and the Parliament working in tandem (the co-decision procedure, renamed the Ordinary Legislative Procedure).

conchubhar1 wrote: »

Those laws must then be implemented by the Member States and the institutions of the EU.

Self-explanatory.

conchubhar1 wrote: »

The Commission is the main institution with implementing powers.

When the law is finalised, it goes back to the Commission who are tasked with deciding how the law is to be implemented (these are the 'implementing powers').

conchubhar1 wrote: »

The Treaties provide for the control by the Member States of the Commission's exercise of its implementing powers. This means that the Council lays down the rules and general principles about how the Commission exercises its implementing powers.

The 'implementing powers' of the Commission are controlled by the member states through the Council. This is basically a kind of safe-guard over the scope the Commission has in implementing the law.

conchubhar1 wrote: »

At present, these rules and general principles must be agreed unanimously. The Treaty of Lisbon proposes that they be agreed by QMV.''

The 'implementing power' rules that the Council sets for the Commission are presently decided by unanimity in the Council. In Lisbon, this changes to QMV.

I hope this helps. BTW, please let us know what documents or Articles you're getting your text from; it will make it easier to answer.

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 12:05pm

yes - it clears it up

seems there are a lot of safehguards - where every bit is watching over the other
which is very good

please look to the first post where i edited it with a few other questions
cheers

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 12:49pm

again - with the lock thread that were useless pushing this down i feel the need to bump it

it actual has questions that i personaly would love answers for and woud stimulate discussion?

Hitman Actual · 19-06-2009 1:04pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

Would one need a knowledge of the irish constitution to read and understand the lisbon treaty?

how much is changed in the constitution?

i think i should just open a lisbon questions thread lol

You don't really need to know the all of the Constitution, but I guess everyone should know it anyway? Here's a decent summary of the changes anyway.

conchubhar1 wrote: »

''This means that any national government may veto such a proposal''

that was in reference to the council - does that mean cowen has the oppurtunity to veto it?
or does it work differently? ah nm, seems it needs to be agreed by the dáil and the seanad

''High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.''
who is this? how are they elected>?

nm - ''One Commissioner will hold the position of the newly created High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.''

are all areas of law etc to be voted on using qmv, double majority or anominity?
or are there other methods of voting?

Wikipedia again gives a good summary of Voting in the Council. QMV and unanimity are the main methods. Double Majority Voting is an extension of QMV (see the link), but it's not due to come in until 2014, dependent on Lisbon passing.

conchubhar1 wrote: »

''EU exclusive competence
The Lisbon Treaty states that the EU has exclusive competence in a number of areas including the customs union, the establishment of the competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market and monetary policy for the Member States whose currency is the Euro.''

are those the only areas the eu has exclusive competence?

Here's a list. At the bottom it says what changes in Lisbon.

conchubhar1 wrote: »

how exactly nd where does the veto work?
how is this changed in lisbon

Any place in the Treaty where it says decisions are taken by unanimity, that's the veto that a country has. In Lisbon, a few new areas move from unanimity to QMV. These are listed at the end of that White Paper I linked already above.

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 1:08pm

ah so its just voting against it - its not a particular veto per-se

so, to stop a certain law going through in qmv - at least 4 states have to disagree?

thanks!

K-9 · 19-06-2009 4:54pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

so, to stop a certain law going through in qmv - at least 4 states have to disagree?

Yes, the reason being it avoids 3 large countries like Poland France and Germany blocking something based purely on the population condition. Its a safeguard for smaller countries.

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 6:33pm

but france,germany, italy and holland would do......

K-9 · 19-06-2009 6:51pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

but france,germany, italy and holland would do......

Yes. Usually there'd be good reasons they would agree on opposing things.

It's very rare it happens as it nearly always is about consensus.

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 7:00pm

yes good for them

turgon · 19-06-2009 7:02pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

yes good for them

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 7:07pm

well, ironicaly eneough, it does exactly what it says the tin.

turgon · 19-06-2009 7:11pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well, ironically enough, it does exactly what it says the tin.

Another fairyland statement. Your debating style isn't what I'd describe as convincing.

K-9 · 19-06-2009 7:12pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

yes good for them

And great for us as we've never had to use our veto as compromise and consensus is what the EU is about.

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 7:13pm

how is it fairyland?

it describes what the statement does - i cant simlify a simple statement

i cant simplify the staement anymore
get a childs dictionary - in fairness there is not ambiguity or hard words

oscarBravo · 19-06-2009 7:21pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

how is it fairyland?

it describes what the statement does - i cant simlify a simple statement

i cant simplify the staement anymore
get a childs dictionary - in fairness there is not ambiguity or hard words

No, just random collections of words masquerading as sentences. It can be very hard to figure out what you're trying to say.

conchubhar1 · 19-06-2009 7:26pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

yes good for them

yes - positive statement

good - as in not bad

for them - for the purposes of them, them being the 4 states

christ - for a four word sentence you still find it hard to grasp
again - nice point bravo - you should be on the yes side just attacking claims and not adding to debate much.....

lisbon - irish budget

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