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Lisbon Mk 2 Predictions

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13

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    #62
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I have no interest in trying to convince you of anything, Oscarbravo.
    Clearly.
    You point, however, is still a bullshit one.
    No, my point is a perfectly valid one. The fact that you can't seem to actually refute it tends to lend credence to it.
    Do you really believe that given the choice, the people of Europe would rather not have a say on whether a treaty goes ahead or not?
    I believe that if the people of Europe wanted to have a referendum on every treaty they could and should initiate whatever processes are necessary within their respective constitutional arrangements to make that possible.

    I still maintain that whether or not they do is none of our business. How would you feel about people from other member states telling us that we shouldn't have a referendum?


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    #63
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Nonsense.


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    #64
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Can you develop that post a little? I don't really understand the point you are making.


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    #65
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Can you develop that post a little? I don't really understand the point you are making.
    In fairness, he's said it twice. That must count for something.


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    #66
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I think it's very clear P. Breathnach.

    Simply washing ones hands of the subject and saying it's of no concern how other European nations pass treaties is a nonsense point.

    Treaties, such as Lisbon, which will affect the lives of Europeans, should be put to the vote of those Europeans.

    Simply saying "...whether or not they do is none of our business" is a bullshit statement. Nothing more.


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    #67
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I think it's very clear P. Breathnach.

    Simply washing ones hands of the subject and saying it's of no concern how other European nations pass treaties is a nonsense point.

    Treaties, such as Lisbon, which will affect the lives of Europeans, should be put to the vote of those Europeans.

    Simply saying "...whether or not they do is none of our business" is a bullshit statement. Nothing more.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    1. It is not for us to decide how other states arrange their affairs.
    2. All sorts of decisions get made at political, legislative, and administrative levels every day. Some of them might have more impact on your life or mine, or that of Juan or Anya or Hans, than the Lisbon treaty. We or they do not vote directly on them.

    One of the greatest threats to any right we have is the abuse of that right. Those who are voting no to the Lisbon treaty for any reason other than the terms of the treaty itself are abusing their democratic right. That includes people who vote no because they think other countries should have different constitutional arrangements.


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    #68
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Simply washing ones hands of the subject and saying it's of no concern how other European nations pass treaties is a nonsense point.

    Treaties, such as Lisbon, which will affect the lives of Europeans, should be put to the vote of those Europeans.
    So Germany, Austria, Italy, the Netherlands, etc. should be forced to amend their constitutions (where necessary) to allow for the ratification of international treaties by popular referenda?


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    #69
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    1. I think we should damn well voice our opinion on the matter when the decisions that other Nations make affect us directly...or does that just work the other way round?

    2. That's neither here no there. Just because something is happening in a particular way doesn't mean it's ok for it to happen across the board.


    And dismissing a Nations vote on an issue and forcing them to vote again, when they have already answered is an even bigger abuse of so-called "democracy."

    It's truely amazing the lengths of absolute nonsense that the 'Yes' camp will go through in their arguments to push Lisbon through.


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    #70
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So Germany, Austria, Italy, the Netherlands, etc. should be forced to amend their constitutions (where necessary) to allow for the ratification of international treaties by popular referenda?
    More to the point, they should be required to do so because some random Irish people say they should?


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    #71
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So Germany, Austria, Italy, the Netherlands, etc. should be forced to amend their constitutions (where necessary) to allow for the ratification of international treaties by popular referenda?

    Why not ask the people of those Countries is they wish to have a referendum on the issue?


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    #72
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tony EH wrote: »
    And dismissing a Nations vote on an issue and forcing them to vote again, when they have already answered is an even bigger abuse of so-called "democracy."
    So "forcing" Irish people to vote on Lisbon a second time is wrong, but forcing the whole of the EU to hold a referendum is ok?


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    #73
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Why not ask the people of those Countries is they wish to have a referendum on the issue?
    Given that a number of constitutions would need to be altered before we get to that stage, my question remains; should constitutional ammendments be forced on EU member states because we say so?


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    #74
    carveone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭carveone


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So Germany, Austria, Italy, the Netherlands, etc. should be forced to amend their constitutions (where necessary) to allow for the ratification of international treaties by popular referenda?

    We could ask. As another addition to the set of demands, sorry, clarifications made by Ireland. I would pay to see that reaction, especially from Germany whose last referenda were for the remilitarisation of the Rhineland and the absorbtion of Austria. The whole plebicite thing hasn't been all that popular since.

    Anyway, I think it's the height of Irishness to ask are whether you are sure you won't go for a nice treaty. The only time we say Yes the first time is when there's a huge stack of money attached. There was no problem saying Yes that time.

    This is the way normal pub conversations in this country go according to the No camp:

    Bob: Will you have a pint?
    Bill: No I'm grand
    Bob: Are you sure?
    Bill: You're infringing on my democratic rights by asking. I've made my position clear on the previous occasion.
    Bob: WTF!?


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    #75
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So "forcing" Irish people to vote on Lisbon a second time is wrong, but forcing the whole of the EU to hold a referendum is ok?

    Dismissing the peoples vote, because the power structue didn't get the answer they were looking for is wrong, yes absolutely.

    But what's "wrong" with putting Lisbon to vote of European people? I doubt that the people of Euorpe would reject the chance to have a referendum on the matter.


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    #76
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Why not ask the people of those Countries is they wish to have a referendum on the issue?
    If the people of those countries wanted to alter their constitutional arrangements for the ratification of treaties, I'm sure they'd initiate the process themselves. They are sovereign states, you know.


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    #77
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Dismissing the peoples vote, because the power structue didn't get the answer they were looking for is wrong, yes absolutely.
    Except that the people's vote wasn't dismissed: Ireland has not ratified the treaty.
    But what's "wrong" with putting Lisbon to vote of European people? I doubt that the people of Euorpe would reject the chance to have a referendum on the matter.
    What's "wrong" with it is that it's none. of. our. business. how another sovereign state ratifies an international treaty.

    What gives you the right to demand that another country change its constitutional arrangements to suit your personal vision of democracy?


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    #78
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If the people of those countries wanted to alter their constitutional arrangements for the ratification of treaties, I'm sure they'd initiate the process themselves. They are sovereign states, you know.

    They're not getting the chance and you know that.


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    #79
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    What's "wrong" with it is that it's none. of. our. business.

    Nonsense. There, I've said it again.

    It's very much our business when the decsions made affect our Country.

    I and I'd wager the vast majority of people don't want the likes of Sarkozy and his ilk to make decisions on such matters without the consent the people.


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    #80
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tony EH wrote: »
    They're not getting the chance and you know that.
    They're not getting a chance to amend their respective consitutions? How so?


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    #81
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Tony EH wrote: »
    They're not getting the chance and you know that.
    You seem to be asserting that the citizens of other EU member states have no influence over the running of their countries, and that something needs to be done about that. By whom, exactly?

    Maybe we should invade them?
    Tony EH wrote: »
    Nonsense. There, I've said it again.
    Well done. If you say it four more times, it will magically become true.
    It's very much our business when the decsions made affect our Country.
    Equally, our decision not to ratify Lisbon affects the other member states. Does that mean they should get a say in how we ratify the treaty?
    I and I'd wager the vast majority of people don't want the likes of Sarkozy and his ilk to make decisions on such matters without the consent the people.
    You can wager all you want - if the people of France want to change their constitutional arrangements so as to require that every treaty be ratified by referendum, they can take such steps as are necessary to do so.

    How would you feel if Sarkozy said "I'd wager the majority of Irish people would rather not have to vote on EU treaties"?


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    #82
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Dismissing the peoples vote, because the power structue didn't get the answer they were looking for is wrong, yes absolutely.

    So we should not have a second chance to ratify the treaty?
    But what's "wrong" with putting Lisbon to vote of European people? I doubt that the people of Euorpe would reject the chance to have a referendum on the matter.

    But everybody else must get one and use it?

    Nonsense.


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    #83
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    djpbarry wrote: »
    They're not getting a chance to amend their respective consitutions? How so?

    You know what I mean.


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    #84
    Jellab
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Jellab


    With a bit of luck everyone will be fed up being asked to vote again and vote no in even bigger numbers.
    Let the voters who didn't come out last time come out now in droves and vote no.


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    #85
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Well done. If you say it four more times, it will magically become true.

    It's already true. Your position is nonsense.


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    #86
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    So we should not have a second chance to ratify the treaty?

    You wouldn't be so nonchalant, if we voted 'Yes' last year, but were ignored and asked to vote again.


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    #87
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    Interesting quotes from Le Monde and Nicolas Sarkozy:

    - Former French President V.Giscard D’Estaing, who helped to draw up the EU Constitution which the French and Dutch rejected in their 2005 referendums and which is now being implemented through the Lisbon Treaty, Le Monde, 14 June 2007
    “Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly … All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”


    - French President Nicolas Sarkozy,at meeting of senior MEPs, EUobserver, 14 November 2007
    “France was just ahead of all the other countries in voting No. It would happen in all Member States if they have a referendum. There is a cleavage between people and governments … There will be no Treaty if we had a referendum in France…”


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    #88
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Tony EH wrote: »
    You wouldn't be so nonchalant, if we voted 'Yes' last year, but were ignored and asked to vote again.

    But you want the people in all the states that have adopted it to have another go. I note you didn't attempt to reconcile your two positions.

    I am far from nonchalant: I fear the prospect of lunatics running the asylum.


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    #89
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    bill_ashmount wrote: »
    Interesting quotes from Le Monde and Nicolas Sarkozy:
    ...

    You came across this stuff today?


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    #90
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    But you want the people in all the states that have adopted it to have another go. I note you didn't attempt to reconcile your two positions.

    I am far from nonchalant: I fear the prospect of lunatics running the asylum.


    The PEOPLE haven't adopted it.

    That's the point you and some others seem to be struggling with.


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    #91
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The PEOPLE haven't adopted it.

    That's the point you and some others seem to be struggling with.
    And the point that you seem to be struggling with is that there is no constitutional requirement in other member states for the people to adopt it. You are falling into the trap of assuming that our approach to ratifying EU treaties is intrinsically superior to everyone else's, and that they should be forced (by whom?) to do things our way.

    No matter how you slice it, that's just arrogant.


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