Debt collection issue

daveyjoe

I received a letter from a debt collection agency on behalf of a well-known Irish web hosting company. I used the web hosting company about two years ago. I changed my credit card around renewal time and I got an email saying:

"Please be advised that the recent credit card payment due on your account has not been made.
Your account is now overdue and may be subject to suspension.

Please contact [redacted] Accounts immediately on [redacted] to update your credit card details and avoid any disruption of services."

I wasn't using the account anymore so I was happy enough for it to be suspended, I ignored the email. This is the only contact that I received from the web hosting company.

Today I received a letter from a debt collection agency on behalf of the web hosting company. I don't understand why I'm in debt, no payment was made so my account should have been suspended, that's fine. I was not under a contractual obligation to renew with the hosting company.

Where do I stand on this issue? I'd like to know before I ring up the debt collection agency.

Boggles

How much do they say you owe them?

How long were you with them?

Did you agree to a contract for a set amount of time?

Did you breach the contract?

The Davestator

Debt collection companies are usually 2 people in a room with 20 printers. They get paid a % of what they collect. (the company is used to work for used them) They rarely have any powers.

daveyjoe

Boggles wrote: »

How much do they say you owe them?

140.99

Boggles wrote: »

How long were you with them?

A year.

Boggles wrote: »

Did you agree to a contract for a set amount of time?

No. I paid for a year and the contract was for a year.

Boggles wrote: »

Did you breach the contract?

I don't believe so.

daveyjoe

Debt collection companies are usually 2 people in a room with 20 printers. They get paid a % of what they collect. (the company is used to work for used them) They rarely have any powers.

Are you saying I should ignore them? The agency's name is Intrum Justitia by the way.

Boggles

daveyjoe wrote: »

140.99


A year.


No. I paid for a year and the contract was for a year.


I don't believe so.

It was webspace you signed for? Did you access the webspace in the past 12 months, even log in?

daveyjoe

Boggles wrote: »

It was webspace you signed for? Did you access the webspace in the past 12 months, even log in?

I don't understand the first question. I logged into the control panel when I got the email just to see if it was still working and it was but I wasn't using it regularly. I just tried to log in now and it didn't work.

jor el

daveyjoe wrote: »

Are you saying I should ignore them? The agency's name is Intrum Justitia by the way.

Pretty much, yes, as long as the following is true:

Your 1 year term with them did not automatically renew, and/or you did not need to terminate in writing. Have a look at the terms and conditions from when you signed up, and see that it was just on a year by year basis, and they didn't require written confirmation of your desire to close the account.

If this is all true, then contact the we hosting company, tell them that your account closed, and you were fine with that, and that you don't owe them anything. Tell them to call off the debt collectors or you will sue them for harassment.

Boggles

daveyjoe wrote: »

I logged into the control panel when I got the email just to see if it was still working and it was but I wasn't using it regularly. I just tried to log in now and it didn't work.

Okay you paid and used the service for 12 months.

Did you log in after the 12 months were up?

daveyjoe

jor el wrote: »

Pretty much, yes, as long as the following is true:

Your 1 year term with them did not automatically renew, and/or you did not need to terminate in writing. Have a look at the terms and conditions from when you signed up, and see that it was just on a year by year basis, and they didn't require written confirmation of your desire to close the account.

I assume that they tried to charge me for a second year because they auto-renew each year, I cannot confirm this though.
I never closed the account, my payment simply bounced and the email stated that my account would be suspended, which would have been fine.

daveyjoe

Boggles wrote: »

Okay you paid and used the service for 12 months.

Did you log in after the 12 months were up?

I got the payment due email after my twelve months were up and I logged in then. So yes, I did.

Boggles

daveyjoe wrote: »

I got the payment due email after my twelve months were up and I logged in then. So yes, I did.

So you were aware you account was still active. You should have contacted them immediately I'm afraid and told them to cancel the account there and then.

daveyjoe

Boggles wrote: »

So you were aware you account was still active. You should have contacted them immediately I'm afraid and told them to cancel the account there and then.

Yes, I was aware that the account was still active. The email said to contact them to "avoid disruption of services", this was not a problem so I let the email slide.

jor el

daveyjoe wrote: »

Yes, I was aware that the account was still active. The email said to contact them to "avoid disruption of services", this was not a problem so I let the email slide.

This may come down to what your terms and conditions are.

I'm with Register365, and their policy states

* The account balance must be zero, i.e. paid in full
* The renewal date must be greater than 7 days in the future

* A written cancellation request must be communicated to Register365 via your control panel; this is to verify that the account owner/administrator is making the cancellation request.
* Please login to your control panel and click the "Technical Support" link from the left hand menu, now click on "New Support Enquiry" and select Enquiry Type as Customer Care and complete the form. We will not terminate an account without a ticket confirmation opened from your control panel.
* Within the request please specify the effective cancellation date, this can be any date up until the renewal date

I have to cancel in writing, 7 days before the renewal date. What does your's say? If you are in breech of the agreement then the debt is yours, I'm afraid.

daveyjoe

This is from the current T&C's (I'll assume that these were in the terms when I signed up too):

Hosting and domain services are provided for an initial term of 12 months (unless explicitly defined under contract) and shall automatically renew for subsequent 12 month terms, until terminated in accordance with this agreement. After the Initial Term, subscribers may terminate this agreement upon thirty (30) days written notice to [redacted].

[...]

SUBSCRIBER UNDERSTANDS THAT UNLESS WRITTEN NOTIFICATION IS RECEIVED BY [REDACTED] AFTER THE INITIAL TERM, THE SERVICE SHALL CONTINUE AND SUBSCRIBER WILL CONTINUE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYMENT OF APPLICABLE SERVICE FEES.

So it looks like that I am liable for this debt, it bugs me that the 'payment overdue' email didn't make this clear though.

So what should I do now? Pay the debt in full? Try and negotiate with the hosting company?

I'm a student and €140.99 is a substantial chunk of change for me, so if there's a way that I could avoid it or negotiate it down then that would be great.

Also, can these debt collection companies effect your credit rating in any way?

subway

afaik, they need to get a judgment against you and that will go through court etc.
im not sure theres any point contacting the hosting company as i believe they will have sold the debt to the colection agency so its between you and the debt colectors now

bfcman

daveyjoe wrote: »

Are you saying I should ignore them? The agency's name is Intrum Justitia by the way.

I switched from a phone service provider a few years ago back to Eircom and they said i owed them about €100. This was a couple of months after I changed back. I ignored them and they put the crowd mentioned above on to me. Got 2 or 3 letters from them and never heard anything else.

daveyjoe

bfcman wrote: »

I switched from a phone service provider a few years ago back to Eircom and they said i owed them about €100. This was a couple of months after I changed back. I ignored them and they put the crowd mentioned above on to me. Got 2 or 3 letters from them and never heard anything else.

I'm beginning to think that I should ignore the letter. Is bfcman's experience the norm or would these crowds usually follow through on a relatively small sum.

The letter states that there can be the following follow-up actions:
* Additional costs and interest will be added to the balance.
* A collector will call directly to your residence.
* We will proceed to Judgement and publish the disclosure in national publications such as Stubbs Gazette.

Venom

daveyjoe wrote: »

I'm beginning to think that I should ignore the letter. Is bfcman's experience the norm or would these crowds usually follow through on a relatively small sum.

The letter states that there can be the following follow-up actions:
* Additional costs and interest will be added to the balance.
* A collector will call directly to your residence.
* We will proceed to Judgement and publish the disclosure in national publications such as Stubbs Gazette.

Intrum Justitia are debt collectors who mainly deal with internet related debts. Google them to see the kind of crap they pull. They will not just give up if you ignore them imho.

bfcman

daveyjoe just saw another thread titled inturm justita in the consumer issues forum
you'll have to google it and look for the boards.ie link

LiamD

Since the email said services would be disrupted I take that to mean they would suspend the services.

The contract you supposedly had renewed was for you to pay 140.99 for 12 months web hosting. Since they cut you off, they didn't provide the 12 months web hosting. They breached the contract as well. In order for you to owe the 140.99 they would have had to provide you with the service. I used to do credit control, in situations like this where a contract was signed for advertising but the advertising wasn't provided (for whatever reason) my manager ususally told me to forget it.

I think you can ignore this. If they pursue you ask for:
Signed contract
Proof of reasonable attempt to settle the debt in reasonable amount of time
Reason for no follow up correspondence for new CC details
And most importantly ask for proof that they provided you with the additional 365 days web hosting. If they do nail you over this, only pay for the days hosting they can conclusively prove that they provided you with.

Alfasud

Venom wrote: »

Intrum Justitia are debt collectors who mainly deal with internet related debts. Google them to see the kind of crap they pull. They will not just give up if you ignore them imho.

Sky television threathened me with debt collectors about 2 years ago. I didnt owe them anything but they kept insisting I did. The statements they kept sending were deliberately complicated, I think. It was easy to sign up but very difficult to get out and cancel the package. I wrote to explain the position several times and eventually after threathening them with suing for harrassement,the overdue bills ceased. Has anybody else had problems with Sky?

Padraig Mor

I've also had a similar problem in the last few days - presumably with the same company. Are we allowed name them here? They're one of the largest Irish companies anyway.

I used them a couple of years ago to reserve a few domain names. I renewed some of them one year later (and paid for this). Come renewal time last November-ish I got a number of emails stating that if I did not renew, DOMAIN X, DOMAIN Y etc would lapse and no longer be mine. Fine, that's what I wanted at that stage. I also received an invoice last Nov for one year's service from Nov - for the princely sum of €12 (they owed me some money coz they ****ed up). This invoice made no reference anything other than the amount owed (no payment date, T+C's etc). Since that, I got a few more "domain will expire" mails for a few weeks. Nothing since then.

Until Wednesday, when I get a letter from Instrum Justitia similar to the OP. I contacted IJ to see if I now had to deal with them only (i.e. they had bought the debt). I was advised I could still deal with the hosting company, but that they may just refer me back to IJ. On delving through the hosting company website I eventually came across the T+C's (which i don't believe I was shown when signing up) which did state that accounts were auto-renewing unless cancelled in writing. Sure enough the hosting company tried initially to pass me back to IJ when I contacted them yesterday but I persisted. I explained that

* I did not ask them to renew the domain names.
* I only received one invoice from them which contained no mention of what would happen if I chose not to pay.
* I received no reminder or any other contact attempt re the amount 'owing'.
* I did not want to keep the domains, which should have been clear from my non-response.
* They had repeatedly sent me emails implying that the names would simply lapse if I didn't pay - which is what I wanted.

Anyway, they relented and agreed that I didn't owe them anything. I am now waiting confirmation of this in writing, along with confirmation that IJ have been informed of same.

daveyjoe

Thanks Padraig Mor that is a very helpful response. I didn't name the company simply because I thought it was largely irrelevant and all my other dealings with this company have went fine (in fact I have written positive blog posts about them and recommended friends to their hosting service), also they are affiliated with boards.

For those who are interested in finding out the company name then just have a look at the footer on the bottom of this page.

I'm going to try and deal with the hosting company on this one, I'll send off a letter by registered post explaining my situation.

foggy_lad

it sounds like a scam really, they dont invoice for the new years hosting only sending emails which are asking for payment or service will be stopped but they do not mention anything about what will happen if you dont pay, i would ignore them or write in telling them you are not paying because they never invoiced you properly.

mikemac

Venom wrote: »

Intrum Justitia are debt collectors who mainly deal with internet related debts. Google them to see the kind of crap they pull. They will not just give up if you ignore them imho.

In my current gaff for 1 year.
The last tenants fecked off without settling up with Eircom. Bill is about 190euro.

Every month a letter from Eircom would arrive, I think it came from collections department, something like that.
I just dumped them, weren't addressed to me. And I don't use Eircom.

For the last two months Intrum Justitia have been sending letters to "the resident".
They are threatening legal action. Again I just dump them.
I'm sure I'll get more of them too!

I suppose I should inform the landlord as if I ever decide to get Eircom my address might get flagged. I'm not sure how it works realy.
Should realy have told the landlord months ago

And now I've read in another post they might call to my door

taram

Nearly the exact same thing happened with me with an American company last year, had paid 2 years up front for a friend, then unfortunately the band I was making the site for split up, so when I got the reminder my account was about to expire, I didn't care since I had clicked the button to stop renewing my account about 6 months previous when the band split, but they still charged me for hosting on a credit card that was expired 22 months previous. Eventually I got my money back by pointing out I had not clicked to renew, had only a 24 month contract originally (it was a special offer for hosting), had not entered a valid card in 2 years and had not clicked terms and conditions etc. They gave me my money back eventually with an apology.

Elessar

daveyjoe wrote: »

* A collector will call directly to your residence.

Don't be fooled by this nonsense. IJ, like any other debt collection agency, have ABSOLUTELY NO POWERS. None. They cannot send anyone "to your residence" since they do not have the authority to seize assets.

The only thing they can legally do is forward your case onto the district court where you come in, there's a judge etc. and full legal process is done. There, depending on how the case goes, a judgement can be made against you to pay up, and/or in extreme cases a judge can grant a warrant and they can then employ the county sheriff to come and legally seize your assets.

That is only for extreme cases where a lot of money is owed. The entire process is lengthy and costs a fortune, so for a few hundred euro you won't see anywhere near a courtroom.

If you are certain you don't owe money, just ignore them. They use scary letters and lies to scare people to pay up, because nobody understands debt collection process in Ireland.

IF anyone were stupid enough to call to your door claiming to be a debt collector tell them to get off your property and/or inform the police. County Sheriffs are the only people legally able to seize assets and only with a court order.

Our man in Havana

daveyjoe wrote: »

I'm beginning to think that I should ignore the letter. Is bfcman's experience the norm or would these crowds usually follow through on a relatively small sum.

The letter states that there can be the following follow-up actions:
* Additional costs and interest will be added to the balance.
* A collector will call directly to your residence.
* We will proceed to Judgement and publish the disclosure in national publications such as Stubbs Gazette.

Standard boilerplate from a debt collector, which is meant to frighten you esp the bit about sending the boys round.

daveyjoe wrote: »

Are you saying I should ignore them? The agency's name is Intrum Justitia by the way.

Ignore them.

Venom wrote: »

Intrum Justitia are debt collectors who mainly deal with internet related debts. Google them to see the kind of crap they pull. They will not just give up if you ignore them imho.

They give up after 2 letters. If you ignore the first letter they send you a fake solicitors letter from Bill Holohan who happens to have the same address and phone number as IJ. If you ignore that nothing happens.

Debt collectors have no more powers than any citizen. All their letters are purely to frighten the uninformed and the timid into paying.

partyatmygaff

Just ignore them and if they come to your door just tell them to feck off they have no powers.