"Pride"

LegacyUser

I am in no way trying to be incendiary, this is a genuine question. Why celebrate "pride"? What is there to celebrate about being gay? It is simply a sexuality, an aspect of a person, like their hair colour (heh, more complex socially of course). I do not see, nor do I want to see being gay as a defining thing in my life, why do others? Why make it almost political? Is it some form of perceived social rebellion, cultural cultivation, post-liberation celebration, simply an excuse to party, or an attempt to attract attention to gay rights (if so, how does a merry parade help?...there is no detectable serious tone). Ill accept any answer, and I have no problem with any of them, or pride itself, its just seems odd to me why people would show "pride" in the first place.

L1011

Dublin Pride started as a protest against a homophobic murder in Fairview Park IIRC; and in a society which is still unequal there is still a place for it on those grounds. Ireland still has deep inequalities.

Its also a great excuse to go out on the lash, which is the main reason anything is done in Ireland...

oisindoyle

Do gay people have equality ? NO they dont so this years PRIDE march is about equality as far as I know ...
Pride Day is fantastic its great fun for ALL..Plus its the only day of the year where I can walk through town holding my partners hand without fear of abuse .
Until I get equality and can walk freely anywhere in Ireland holding my partners hand ;I think Pride marches will continue

Trance

The fact that we're still running around screaming about how we're gay, at this stage, is only prolonging the diminishment of the stigma attached to homosexuality. If we want to show people that being gay is completely normal why are we at the same time parading about it?

Your sexual preference is nothing to be proud of. It's not an achievement. Gays just can't seem to grasp that concept though. The fact that we feel the need to mince around the streets shouting, screaming and celebrating our sexuality antagonizes straight people. By doing it still we're only further differentiating and ostracizing ourselves.

The jaded equality arguement that we use I will admit is the perfect excuse. By using it, we cause anyone in this county with any sort of power to be absolutely terrified to speak out and say something negative about Pride. We could cause uproar and crucify them for trying to infringe on our rights.

Nevyn

It's not just about being gay it is also about different sexual and gender diversity.
IT is about being seen and I think we still need that atm in this country but there will come a time when it is more celebration then demonstration.
I do think that Pride needs to be more inclusive, got called a breeder a few years back when I was in town with my kids by a section of the parade was not impressed.

unreggd

Trance wrote: »

The fact that we're still running around screaming about how we're gay, at this stage, is only prolonging the diminishment of the stigma attached to homosexuality. If we want to show people that being gay is completely normal why are we at the same time parading about it?

+1

Excessive "pride" isnt the only alternative to shame
It's like sayin "if ur not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" it's bullsh;t

As was said above, its not an achievement
If it is, then I shall be headlining eyeball pride 2009, woo
"They're here, they let me see, DEAL WITH IT"

and Gender ID + sexuality shouldn't be in the same category tbh

Dark Artist

It's not really about being proud. It's more about not being ashamed. There are still thousands of gay people in Ireland scared to come out because we still live in an imperfect society where people are mocked and discriminated against because of their sexuality.

I've said this before - there's no 'straight' parade because straight people have never felt the inescapable despair and entrapment that every gay person feels at some stage.

Of course sexuality in itself isn't an achievement. The achievement that's being celebrated is the achievement of the gay person who is brave enough to just be themselves, which is still an extremely difficult thing to do.

Aard

oisindoyle wrote: »

Until I get equality and can walk freely anywhere in Ireland holding my partners hand ;I think Pride marches will continue

So let me get this right: At the parade, you go around holding your partner's hand, amidst rainbow flags and drag queens, then for the other 364 days of the year, you don't even give him/her a peck on the cheek?


Where's the "pride" in that?

seanybiker

Although us straight people dont have marches and all that to celebrate being straight, I can imagine if we did it would be classed as us being homophobic.
March away and enjoy yourselfs. Your not harming anyone and as somebody already said, ye can show love without feeling weird. I can find people flaunting their sexuality annoying, mainly because I couldnt give a fiddlers if your heterosexual, homosexual even Asexual (lol). So dont understand why people feel the need to tell everyone what sexuality they are. Saying that, I imagine this pride march to be a right laugh for all involved. My twin brother is gay but doesnt go to marches because he finds all the flaunting a bit ott. Horses for courses I suppose. Anyways enjoy yourselves and have a drink for me.:)

dan719

oisindoyle wrote: »

Pride Day is fantastic its great fun for ALL..Plus its the only day of the year where I can walk through town holding my partners hand without fear of abuse .
Until I get equality and can walk freely anywhere in Ireland holding my partners hand ;I think Pride marches will continue

I'm just curious but what convinces you that you would be abused? I would often hold another guy's hand in Dublin and no-one bats an eyelid. Even if they did, who cares?

Also agree with the poster(s) that stated that doing small things like holding hands in public etc would do far more for the de- stigmatisation* of homosexuality than divisive and often annoying 'pride' marches.

*May not be a word but I'm still hungover from last night.

dny123456

We need to have a pride day to show that our society and political system is (and continues to be) inclusive enough to allow it. We also need pride to show solidarity to the many billions who are not as fortunate as us to enjoy such freedom and acceptance...

that... and its a great excuse to enjoy yourself, get pissed, meet friends.

Bit like Paddy's day

Aard

dny123456 wrote: »

We need to have a pride day to show that our society and political system is (and continues to be) inclusive enough to allow it.

Wow. The first thing that comes to mind is those Americans who say, "I have a gun because it's a constitutional right to have one."

Just because our society is inclusive, doesn't mean that we have to parade through the city waving flags and wearing Speedos.

dny123456 wrote: »

We also need pride to show solidarity to the many billions who are not as fortunate as us to enjoy such freedom and acceptance...

I take it you're refering to places where homosexuality is illegal. I'm at a loss as to how a parade shows solidarity with them. Is it that the leaders of such countries will hear about it and go, "Well if Ireland allows it, why not Iran?" I don't think so. If anything, it will just incense them more; Pride Parade is not representative of all gay people - just the look-at-me, we're-here-we're-queer types.

LegacyUser

This is my take on the purpose of pride -1. It's supposed to be a pan-sexual procession, who says straight people can't come and show their support!? surely pride is supposed to be an inclusive event, and 2. visibility- so that other gay (l.g.b.t) people can be aware of the various social, support groups in the community. 3. Political- There is always a speaker at the end of the procession, some have been more intelligent speakers than others. sometimes they have some interesting points to make on important gay issues...marriage, bullying etc... also some positive steps that have been made over the past year pertaining to certain issues.

Cabbage Brained

Jeez, lighten up a bit will you OP?

dny123456

Aard wrote: »

Pride Parade is not representative of all gay people - just the look-at-me, we're-here-we're-queer types.

I'm not a 'look-at-me', we're-here-we're-queer' type and have never worn speedos or waved a flag through the city centre! If you actually go to the pride march, most of the people you will see, quietly walk the route. The news reports and videos you see on the net are full of that, but most people are just, what you would probably conside, 'normal', walking down the road and having a laugh.

Aard wrote: »

Is it that the leaders of such countries will hear about it and go, "Well if Ireland allows it, why not Iran?" I don't think so.

No, of course not, but it may give the gay people (and gay supportive) in those countries the courage to self organise and realise that not all societies treat them as freaks.

It also gives our own politicians an opportunity to express where they stand on LGBT rights. For example Eamon Ryan marched last year... I didn't see any speedos!

Remember, while we have it pretty good in this country and have a lot to be thankful for, civil union has not yet been legislated for and there is still quite a lot of homophobia in our little country. A lot done, but a little bit left to do.

Happy pride

pepsi1234

I'm against how these people hijack our sexuality and reinforce a negative gay stereotype. No wonder the general public are against gay adoption. Someone walking the streets in a leather costume does not exactly paint a picture of responsibility or maturity.
If doctors had such a parade 'just for being doctors' and carried on in the same manner, do you think they would gain or lose respect from the general public?

dny123456

pepsi1234 wrote: »

I'm against how these people hijack our sexuality and reinforce a negative gay stereotype. No wonder the general public are against gay adoption. Someone walking the streets in a leather costume does not exactly paint a picture of responsibility or maturity.
If doctors had such a parade 'just for being doctors' and carried on in the same manner, do you think they would gain or lose respect from the general public?

Have you actually been to the pride festival?

oisindoyle

Trance wrote: »

The fact that we're still running around screaming about how we're gay, at this stage, is only prolonging the diminishment of the stigma attached to homosexuality. If we want to show people that being gay is completely normal why are we at the same time parading about it?

Your sexual preference is nothing to be proud of. It's not an achievement. Gays just can't seem to grasp that concept though. The fact that we feel the need to mince around the streets shouting, screaming and celebrating our sexuality antagonizes straight people. By doing it still we're only further differentiating and ostracizing ourselves.

The jaded equality arguement that we use I will admit is the perfect excuse. By using it, we cause anyone in this county with any sort of power to be absolutely terrified to speak out and say something negative about Pride. We could cause uproar and crucify them for trying to infringe on our rights.

What a load of Tosh!

Aard

oisindoyle wrote: »

What a load of Tosh!

Care to elaborate?

ixoy

I was reading an article (more of an opinion piece) on the Scientific American website that said that many straight people, who will believe perfectly well in gay people's right, maystill feel an inner sense of revulsion if they saw two gay men kiss, that it's something often caused by seeing something that deviates from their perception of normal as it doesn't fit into the context of their daily lives.

Now with that in mind, surely a more pro-active idea (as the article suggests) would be if people were that bit braver and held their partner's hand in public and showed them more affection. I believe that would be far more beneficial than a singe day's actions, that's less a political statement than an excuse to have a day out.

oisindoyle

ixoy wrote: »

I was reading an article (more of an opinion piece) on the Scientific American website that said that many straight people, who will believe perfectly well in gay people's right, maystill feel an inner sense of revulsion if they saw two gay men kiss, that it's something often caused by seeing something that deviates from their perception of normal as it doesn't fit into the context of their daily lives.

Now with that in mind, surely a more pro-active idea (as the article suggests) would be if people were that bit braver and held their partner's hand in public and showed them more affection. I believe that would be far more beneficial than a singe day's actions, that's less a political statement than an excuse to have a day out.

Very few gay /lesbian people will hold hands in public due to in some incidences "cat Calls" from passers by or worse still physical attack ..YES attacks STILL happen in Dublin ,in fact I know of a guy who was badly beaten up on Francis St in at 1030 am in the morning !

Bottle_of_Smoke

oisindoyle wrote: »

Very few gay /lesbian people will hold hands in public due to in some incidences "cat Calls" from passers by or worse still physical attack ..YES attacks STILL happen in Dublin ,in fact I know of a guy who was badly beaten up on Francis St in at 1030 am in the morning !

yeah that's a tough one alright. In london/paris homo couples walk around linking hands and no-one cares

Maybe homo-couples here should do it in safer areas like grafton/nassau/kildare/dawson street. Could understand someone being wary to do so on henry street/all of north city centre with exception of maybe henry street.

LookingFor

I definitely see both sides of the argument on this.

Though I've lately been leaning more toward the side that says "pictures of guys in drag in the irish times at pride doesn't do much for the image of all gay people", tbh. But then I also see the 'cultural value' some gay people see in that.

As a political statement, or as an effort towards equality, I'm really not sure how effective pride is today. Pride is not viewed as a political protest, so no one takes it as such, IMO. I think the gay community does need to become more organised politically to more actively protest certain issues, but I'd be more inclined to draw inspiration from the 'grey protests' over the medical card, for example, than I would from pride as it currently is. I don't think pride is as widely inclusive as it might like to think it is, I think there's an awful lot of gay people who just don't relate to it and who don't take it as a reflection of themselves or their interests, but rather reflects the personality and interests of a smaller, more vocal and more active group. IMO, if equality and such is the goal, we should be looking at ways to involve and 'activate' the more silent majority of gay people.

Otaku Girl

unregistered wrote: »

I am in no way trying to be incendiary, this is a genuine question. Why celebrate "pride"? What is there to celebrate about being gay? It is simply a sexuality, an aspect of a person, like their hair colour (heh, more complex socially of course). I do not see, nor do I want to see being gay as a defining thing in my life, why do others? Why make it almost political? Is it some form of perceived social rebellion, cultural cultivation, post-liberation celebration, simply an excuse to party, or an attempt to attract attention to gay rights (if so, how does a merry parade help?...there is no detectable serious tone). Ill accept any answer, and I have no problem with any of them, or pride itself, its just seems odd to me why people would show "pride" in the first place.

I am neither proud nor ashamed to be bisexual or transexual in the same way I'm neither proud nor ashamed that I have white skin and blue eyes.I was born with such qualities and inclinations so there is no achievement involved.

unreggd

oisindoyle wrote: »

Very few gay /lesbian people will hold hands in public due to in some incidences "cat Calls" from passers by or worse still physical attack

This happens to loads of people, for different reasons!
Size, race, appearance etc

The kind of people who slag passers-by are irrelevant ignorant wastes of people!

How the hell do you think an OTT march once a year will resolve this?

As was said, be proactive, but wary

Stop victimising yourself

oisindoyle

unreggd wrote: »

This happens to loads of people, for different reasons!
Size, race, appearance etc

The kind of people who slag passers-by are irrelevant ignorant wastes of people!

How the hell do you think an OTT march once a year will resolve this?

As was said, be proactive, but wary

Stop victimising yourself

It may well happen to loads of people but it happens to gay and lesbian people ,,,thats the fact of the matter ...
As for your comment OTT march ,,,i suggest you go on the march and see ALL participants ...Not just the ones the media seem to focus on ,,,The vast majority of those who march are ordinary Joe Bloggs and Mary Bloggs,,,The marches of late have a political slant ,,this one for example is to do with EQUALITY....
I fail to see how your comment "stop victimising yourself" has any relevance ...Its rather stupid if I may say so ,,,,The facts are gay/lesbian people are still victimised in this society whether you believe it or not or like it or not and beaten up becasue of their sexuality ,,,Plus they are classed as second classed citizens

unreggd

If you act like a rebel one day a year, in an overshadowed event, then cower away for the other 364 days, you wont get anywhere

And that's why the hate is still there, because its not a common thing to see
The more common it is, the more accepted it would be

The only person stopping you holding hands in public is you

You're marching in a parade saying how proud you are, but then you're acting like you're ashamed

Do you not see the irony of your approach?

oisindoyle

unreggd wrote: »

If you act like a rebel one day a year, in an overshadowed event, then cower away for the other 364 days, you wont get anywhere

And that's why the hate is still there, because its not a common thing to see
The more common it is, the more accepted it would be

The only person stopping you holding hands in public is you

You're marching in a parade saying how proud you are, but then you're acting like you're ashamed

Do you not see the irony of your approach?

Yup I totally understand your logic ,,Firstly,though ,I wot be acting a rebel on Pride day ,I'll walk with 100s of other gay and lesbian people and we will have a laugh ,We always do ,its great fun ....
At no time am I ashamed of who I am ,but there are times when I will not hold my partners hand in public if I sense there could be trouble and believe me ,thats a very real fear even today 2009
I do tend to hold my partners hand at the best of times (except if we're argueing !!!!)

shoegirl

Visibility has been an important political tool since the late 60s and early 70s. It was realised that a human face made it much harder to deny rights than being a nameless and faceless minority. Early pride parades showed that numerically we were a much bigger grouping than previously thought and that more of us wanted to be heard than previously thought. If as a private citizen, I put an X on a ballot paper nobody knows my sexuality.

The invisibility that surrounded us for years enabled a lot of mythologies to be generated regarding our lives - and still does. Ignorance is death as the old anti HIV slogan used to say.

I agree that some prides are much more commercial events than political but there is a kind of balance I think between commercial, political and social when you consider a lot of big bars could have made a lot more money had they dumped their gay clientele and gone "straight" (Turks Head Chophouse anyone?) I do see this in places like Maspalomas where the vast majority of the local "gay community" appear to be ex-pats with commercial interests in the gay scene.

Of course breaking the stigmas and shame is still important, especially to help people to be more open and thus less stigmatised in smaller communities. One thing I see a lot and its really sad is very very identifiably gay people living a life that they think is in the closet but everyone around them seems to recognise it but keep silent. Thats sad I think.

shoegirl

pepsi1234 wrote: »

I'm against how these people hijack our sexuality and reinforce a negative gay stereotype. No wonder the general public are against gay adoption. Someone walking the streets in a leather costume does not exactly paint a picture of responsibility or maturity.
If doctors had such a parade 'just for being doctors' and carried on in the same manner, do you think they would gain or lose respect from the general public?

I hear a lot of people these days talking about negative gay stereotypes - cross dressers, sexual fetishists, promiscuity, Tom of Finland types, mannish radical lesbian separatists, sauna/darkroom users. But all of these have equivalents on the hetero communities in some form or another and people are changing there too. I this we need to practice tolerance within our own community - how otherwise can we expect to find it outside? We don't all look like respectable middle class couples and people come from all lots of backgrounds and mindsets.

kisaragi

Pride this year is mostly about campaigning against the civil partnership bill. Campaigning for equal rights.

It's also a celebration of your sexuality, who you are, and being yourself. Why is this necessary? Because so many people feel ashamed of their sexuality still. And many people think we should be ashamed of it too. I think the different aspects of gay culture are well represented. I'll be marching with a flag but other than that I'll just be a normal guy walking! I personally like the drag queens and anyone else who shows up in whatever costume. It's a party in a way.

If you hate how flamboyant gays, leather bears and drag queens are "hijacking" your sexuality then go and march yourself.