One in four South African men are rapists

anonymous_joe

amacachi wrote: »

Just like how no-one will admit that Rhodesia, despite all the trade and diplomatic barriers erected against it, was better than Zimbabwe today. Indeed it was better than probably any Sub-Saharan country today, and I don't just mean for the landowners.

It was. Morally unjustifiable though...

K-9 wrote: »

Do elaborate? Please do.

You've got a country where the president's a rapist. Senior political figures (including the president) consider aids something treatable with a shower. It's a commonly held belief that raping a virgin girl will cure AIDS.

Now I'm not saying De Klerk et al were good people, far fcuking from it, they were racist cnuts, and as I've oft quoted an ex - apartheid's the only Dutch word the whole world knows - apartheid was evil, but South Africa as a country has suffered in recent years. It's become much more violent and dangerous than it was. That's undeniable.

Tar.Aldarion

Mousey- wrote: »

LOL 1 in 4 isnt a rapist in japan....

they made a computer game about stalking women

They also have games about raping poeple and molesting poeple. ALso you can make people have an abortion in one.

Nevyn

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It was. Morally unjustifiable though...


You've got a country where the president's a rapist. Senior political figures (including the president) consider aids something treatable with a shower. It's a commonly held belief that raping a virgin girl will cure AIDS.

Those type of conditions are where female genital mutilation thrives, that is the other scary side of it. Men will want to marry a virgin thinks she won't have aids and will demand that their bride's virginity by proven protected by the fact her labia have been sew shut for him to cut open on the wedding night and it is seen as a way to protect girls from rape as a family having the money to have that done to a girl gives her status and she is less likely to be raped.

Hard to say which is worse being gang raped or having your outer lips cuts off and your clitoris sometimes with broken glass and then the the inner lips sew shut while your mother, aunts and other women hold you down.

Degsy

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It was. Morally unjustifiable though...


You've got a country where the president's a rapist. Senior political figures (including the president) consider aids something treatable with a shower. It's a commonly held belief that raping a virgin girl will cure AIDS.

Now I'm not saying De Klerk et al were good people, far fcuking from it, they were racist cnuts, and as I've oft quoted an ex - apartheid's the only Dutch word the whole world knows - apartheid was evil, but South Africa as a country has suffered in recent years. It's become much more violent and dangerous than it was. That's undeniable.

So DeKlerk and co were racists?
Whata bout Nelson Mandella and the ANC with thier "One settler,one bullet" philosopy?
They left the country to majority rule and within ten years it was a violent,crime filled pigsty having pissed away any chance of prosperity and now cities like jo'burg are no-go areas for whites.
But of course the whites who m ade the country prosperous were racists,the blacks who attack the whites and turn the place in to a hellhole are decent sorts who will return the country to its former glory,just like what happened in Zimbabwe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFj0HdW2iDs&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC8qQE4Y2Js

Dravokivich

DTrotter wrote: »

Hadn't a couple high level government official some real dodgy views on AIDs also?

Think it was their prime minister or something...

Did it with a women he know had aids... but said "It's fine i had a shower afterwards"

their really is a scary lack of info about Aids and STI's in general around Africa, not just SA.

- Drav!

positron

If only South Africa had oil.... New World's brave leader Mr. Bush would have sorted this out a very long time ago..!

< / sarcasm>

wudangclan

i simply dont believe those statistics.while there is undoubtedly a higher incidence of rape in s.a. (i visited jo'burg a couple of times last year and heard some horrible stroies about house invasions) , i dont believe that one in 4 s.a.males is a rapist.
it says in the bbc reprt that and electronic survey was used,to protect anonymity,but it doesn't give any other details of how ,where or who responded to the survey.
i dont believe the stats is all.

bronte

Thaedydal wrote: »

Those type of conditions are where female genital mutilation thrives, that is the other scary side of it. Men will want to marry a virgin thinks she won't have aids and will demand that their bride's virginity by proven protected by the fact her labia have been sew shut for him to cut open on the wedding night and it is seen as a way to protect girls from rape as a family having the money to have that done to a girl gives her status and she is less likely to be raped.

Hard to say which is worse being gang raped or having your outer lips cuts off and your clitoris sometimes with broken glass and then the the inner lips sew shut while your mother, aunts and other women hold you down.

I've read a few articles about this ****.
Jesus it's completely fubar :mad::mad:

The_Minister

Apparently it my be common among African communities in Britain too.

This black journalist backs the documentary.
He says that when he was young

I knew the terrain well. Gang rape was part of the urban culture in which I grew up. I entered my teens in a working-class ghetto in Port of Spain, peopled by gangs based on the Diggers and Stompers of America. I was a Style-Cramper and a Law-Breaker. Other gangs were Spike Jones and the Fallen Angels, the Apple Jackers and Sun Valley. We fought each other over teenage loves and territory. Gang rape initiated male virgins into sex. And if you didn't share, the others would take your girlfriend away.

My girlfriend was called Betty. There was no place to be private except a disused building. I took her there one night and the gang moved in. I went with her to the police station and gave a list of names. I was determined to put my mates to the sword. There was no anti-racist movement through which I interpreted this social behaviour, nor any feminist movement. As far as I was concerned, it was the culture of the brute.

Even Finglas isn't that bad.

The Walsho

It was a very unfortunate typo. 1 in 4 men consider gang rap to be a form of male bonding. Just like D-12 or So Solid Crew.

Personally, I'm not into all that modern bonding. A good ol' circle jerk was how we did it in my day.

Degsy

The_Minister wrote: »

Apparently it my be common among African communities in Britain too.

This black journalist backs the documentary.
He says that when he was young

Even Finglas isn't that bad.

There are no africans in finglas but white kids trying to copy thier "culture".

Fighting Irish

dr.bollocko wrote: »

AH is not the place for rape jokes folks. Nobody wants to see it and action will be taken.

Of course nobody wants to see it, but jokes are funny. If you can't take a joke there's no hope for you


But yeah Africa is obviously waaay diff than Ireland so obviously we are more shocked about this

Puddleduck

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Of course nobody wants to see it, but jokes are funny. If you can't take a joke there's no hope for you


But yeah Africa is obviously waaay diff than Ireland so obviously we are more shocked about this

What has being Irish have to do with it. I presume any decent person would be shocked by it. Seriously messed up. But is it lack of education or a sort of peer pressure?

Degsy

Puddleduck wrote: »

What has being Irish have to do with it. I presume any decent person would be shocked by it. Seriously messed up. But is it lack of education or a sort of peer pressure?

Its the way of things over there..no amount of education is going to change that sort of mindset.

I cant believe there havnt been Irish apologists creeping out of the woodwork trying to justify that behaviour yet!

SEPT 23 1989

its the white mans fault

wudangclan

wudangclan wrote: »

i simply dont believe those statistics.while there is undoubtedly a higher incidence of rape in s.a. (i visited jo'burg a couple of times last year and heard some horrible stroies about house invasions) , i dont believe that one in 4 s.a.males is a rapist.
it says in the bbc reprt that and electronic survey was used,to protect anonymity,but it doesn't give any other details of how ,where or who responded to the survey.
i dont believe the stats is all.

I'm sure that comforts all the women being raped o.O

Crash

Actually, haven't had a chance to read the original piece yet, just read re-reported versions of it - are there any racial demographics associated with that? Considering that most of those who have emigrated from SA in recent times have been white (something like 25% of the white population? Or is that a statistic i've made up somewhere) just makes me wonder.

Puddleduck

Degsy wrote: »

Its the way of things over there..no amount of education is going to change that sort of mindset.

I cant believe there havnt been Irish apologists creeping out of the woodwork trying to justify that behaviour yet!

That doesnt explain how ministers and politicians think that if you rape a virgin itll cure AIDS. I presume a minister/politician would have had some kind of education so is it just not shouted loud enough?

Seriously sick.

dfx-

PaulieD wrote: »

Are the four of you South African. Read the threads title "One in four South African Men are rapists" not "One in four men who lived in South Africa are rapists".

And even then it's 1 in 4 of the sample taken...not 1 in 4 SA men as pointed out earlier..

anonymous_joe wrote: »

What saddens me most of all is the frightening degree to which people ignore the issue, because no-one wants to admit that apartheid-era South Africa was in anyway superior to non-racist South Africa.

One person's racism is another's "affirmative action". Very easily argued that South Africa is still racist.

General Zod

They left the country to majority rule and within ten years it was a violent,crime filled pigsty having pissed away any chance of prosperity and now cities like jo'burg are no-go areas for whites.

It may be a shock to you, but it was always a crime ridden pigsty.

tallaght01

I used to work in an emergency department in south africa. I dealt with more rape victims in there than I have in the entire rest of my career. Literally dozens a day.

They said to me that girls in SA have more chance of being raped than learning to read.

But I have no doubt that the EXACT same thing would happen in Ireland given the same circumstances. Look at Johannesburg. Literally lawless. If you rape a woman, the chances of being caught are practically zero. Same with murdering someone.

You drive around all day pissed and you'll never be caught. You don't stop at traffic lights, or you'll get car jacked.

The poverty is phenomenal.

A huge proportion of blokes end up in gangs. If you're not in a gang, you're very exposed. People will literally shoot you dead for a cigarette.

If the gang tells you you're all going out to get some girls, you go. You get drugged up. Girls get raped. It doesn't matter what age they are. Youngest I saw was a few weeks old and was left in a bin.

You have to understand the sheer depravity of the environment. But the reality is this is not unique to Africa. Most war zones are lawless, so rape is endemic. I'm going to Papua new guinea in a month or 2 on a HIV programme. Was reading some of their stats the other day, and the estimate is that 40% of women get raped. What do they have in common with south africa? lawlessness and poverty.

What did the Irish clergy have in common with the above? Virtual legal immunity.

It's ****ed up, and it makes me mad even thinking about it. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking this wouldn't happen in ireland under the right circumstances.

Tchaikovsky

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, as many RACISTS will cease upon things like this to prove " a point ".

You mean "sieze upon" ?

Tchaikovsky

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

You mean "sieze upon" ?

No, he meant "seize upon".

maxwell smart

Its obviously very common in SA, even if those stats are off or not (I don't know) I do know that SA is a scary place, I went on a trade mission with Enterprise Ireland last year and was told not to step away from our security detail at any time, if I wanted to leave the hotel they would provide a driver and a "guide". Pretty freaky stuff.

It is obviously no where near as common over here in Europe,but is that because we are more civilised?
When I read the thread the first time, before the lock, I was just about to post that having read the BBC article, it reminded me (in a wierd, off tangent way) of how premiership footballers "bond", but they call it roasting.....

Acid_Violet

My name is URL wrote: »

Well poverty and rape are correlated. And the fact that its ignored mostly isn't going to reduce the number is it?

How do you make that?

WindSock

WindSock wrote: »

Well there you have it. It's rampant everywhere, but still deemed abnormal.

My name is URL wrote: »

wat?

To clarify, this is what I mean...

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's ****ed up, and it makes me mad even thinking about it. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking this wouldn't happen in ireland under the right circumstances.

It's very fcked up, by abnormal I mean rare.
It's not rare. It can just as easily happen in any country. I think I'll have to purchase a weapon.

Degsy

tallaght01 wrote: »

Most war zones are lawless, so rape is endemic

So what war is being waged in South Africa?

thelordofcheese

Degsy wrote: »

I cant believe there havnt been Irish apologists creeping out of the woodwork trying to justify that behaviour yet!

Your subscription to the most exaggerated of stereotypes never fails to amuse me.

tallaght01

Degsy wrote: »

So what war is being waged in South Africa?

The point I was making is that SA in the parts were rape is endemic is lawless. That's what it has in common with a war zone.

BUt let' be realistic..when I was there, it was the busiest A+E in the world. Moreso than most war zones. Iraq took it's place a while ago. There's certainly as much violence there as in some civil wars.

ScissorPaperRock

I'd say education is exactly what's required. But more than anything it's money.

Poverty is implicated in this, even if it's not the root cause, it's a barrier to overcoming the endemic.

If there isn't enough money to provide a proper education system people will never learn the truth about AIDS etc.
If there isn't enough money to provide medicine people will try other ways of curing AIDS in desperation.
Money is needed to mobilise discourses powerful enough to begin to offset a curtural perception (through education, media, campaigns, studies, government policy making etc)
Where poverty is rampant teenagers are always going to wind up in gangs and turn to criminal activities, whether for money, protection or something to do.

It's a result of appalling socio-economic conditions that has become intertwined with culture.

Degsy

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

I'd say education is exactly what's required. But more than anything it's money.

Poverty is implicated in this, even if it's not the root cause, it's a barrier to overcoming the endemic.

If there isn't enough money to provide a proper education system people will never learn the truth about AIDS etc.
If there isn't enough money to provide medicine people will try other ways of curing AIDS in desperation.
Money is needed to mobilise discourses powerful enough to begin to offset a curtural perception (through education, media, campaigns, studies, government policy making etc)
Where poverty is rampant teenagers are always going to wind up in gangs and turn to criminal activities, whether for money, protection or something to do.

It's a result of appalling socio-economic conditions that has become intertwined with culture.

So rich people dont commit rape????

ScissorPaperRock

Degsy wrote: »

So rich people dont commit rape????

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

javaboy

Degsy wrote: »

So rich people dont commit rape????

Do you deliberately misinterpret people and put words in their mouths for kicks? You can see what he's saying. Stop pretending you can't.

Scootay

Um Bongo wrote: »

In caveman times, men that went around raping women would've left behind more offspring than those that didn't. In the long run, men with desires to rape became the most numerous in the population.

True story.

We know practically nothing about what happened in "caveman times".

True story.

Porkpie

People will make all sorts of excuses for barbaric practises. In this case, it's a 'cultural' thing. What a load of nonsense. I pity the poor victims. Rapists should be castrated, then we'd have a better statistic like two out of every eight balls removed.

K-9

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It was. Morally unjustifiable though...


You've got a country where the president's a rapist. Senior political figures (including the president) consider aids something treatable with a shower. It's a commonly held belief that raping a virgin girl will cure AIDS.

Now I'm not saying De Klerk et al were good people, far fcuking from it, they were racist cnuts, and as I've oft quoted an ex - apartheid's the only Dutch word the whole world knows - apartheid was evil, but South Africa as a country has suffered in recent years. It's become much more violent and dangerous than it was. That's undeniable.

Jaysus, makes Bertie look ethical.

I suppose you have take account that these issues where there under apartheid and completely covered up. You'd have to compare the rape statistics from the 2 eras and see has it improved or not. Might be an impossible task.

Degsy wrote: »

So DeKlerk and co were racists?
Whata bout Nelson Mandella and the ANC with thier "One settler,one bullet" philosopy?
They left the country to majority rule and within ten years it was a violent,crime filled pigsty having pissed away any chance of prosperity and now cities like jo'burg are no-go areas for whites.
But of course the whites who m ade the country prosperous were racists,the blacks who attack the whites and turn the place in to a hellhole are decent sorts who will return the country to its former glory,just like what happened in Zimbabwe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFj0HdW2iDs&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC8qQE4Y2Js

I think some S. African whites from that era relish the way SA is now, in a "told you so, them blacks can't run anything" type of way.

There are huge problems in the country relating to poverty and lack of education, some if because of apartheid, some of it not helped by apartheid.

On the Aids issue, that was only starting to be a problem at the end of the apartheid days. I wonder how De Klerk and co would have dealt with it?

Fighting Irish

Puddleduck wrote: »

What has being Irish have to do with it. I presume any decent person would be shocked by it. Seriously messed up. But is it lack of education or a sort of peer pressure?

I'm saying some people in Africa live like animals

anonymous_joe

The_Minister wrote: »

Apparently it my be common among African communities in Britain too.

This black journalist backs the documentary.
He says that when he was young

Even Finglas isn't that bad.

Is Port of Spain not in Trinidad, dude?

Degsy wrote: »

So what war is being waged in South Africa?

General decline of law and order rather than a war. Has all the symptoms of a war zone without the war.

K-9 wrote: »

Jaysus, makes Bertie look ethical.

I suppose you have take account that these issues where there under apartheid and completely covered up. You'd have to compare the rape statistics from the 2 eras and see has it improved or not. Might be an impossible task.

Bertie's not evil, just grubby.

Apartheid probably did cover it up, but the population's gotten poorer since then, and hasn't the population gone up a lot too in poor areas? Especially with immigrants fleeing trouble in Zimbabwe etc.

I think some S. African whites from that era relish the way SA is now, in a "told you so, them blacks can't run anything" type of way.

There are huge problems in the country relating to poverty and lack of education, some if because of apartheid, some of it not helped by apartheid.

On the Aids issue, that was only starting to be a problem at the end of the apartheid days. I wonder how De Klerk and co would have dealt with it?

I used to play WoW (yeah I know ><) and one of the lads we played with was South African and every day at exactly the same time he'd disconnect because the power would fail and he'd have to go turn on his generator.

He was a proud Afrikaaner and hated the rulers of his country. And to be honest, it was hard to blame him. Apartheid may have been a factor in the trouble, but for example, Thabo Mbeki (spelling?) was very well educated. He ignored all this and allowed it to happen. That's not apartheid's fault tbh. It's too easy for us to blame apartheid and then ignore the current administration which does even less to stop these problems.

ScissorPaperRock

Porkpie wrote: »

People will make all sorts of excuses for barbaric practises. In this case, it's a 'cultural' thing. What a load of nonsense. I pity the poor victims. Rapists should be castrated, then we'd have a better statistic like two out of every eight balls removed.

It's not a matter of excuses, it's a matter of finding the roots of something. The question is why it became a cultural thing, and how to undo this, and what the barriers are to undoing it.

While the fear of castration would most likely reduce the number of rapes if it was a legitimate threat this would not address the circumstances that created the conditions that allow it to perpetuate.

As well as this, the fear of consequences such as castration should not be the reason people don't rape, but rather knowing that it's not ok to do that.

The_Minister

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I'm saying some people in Africa live like animals

All they do is sleep, and eat, and mate, and sleep, and mate...where do I sign up?

markesmith

Poverty, lack of education, cultural practice, political culture, the belief that deflowering a virgin will cure AIDS, social norms among men in South Africa, may all have something to do with it.

I was discussing this with someone at lunchtime, and they blamed the colonialists, as in a 'It's our collective fault that one in four South Africans are rapists'.

I don't want to play devil's advocate here - wait, actually I do - but is there a huge elephant in the room in this particular thread? Like a factor that everyone is thinking of, but no-one dare mention?

Nevyn

markesmith wrote: »

I don't want to play devil's advocate here - wait, actually I do - but is there a huge elephant in the room in this particular thread? Like a factor that everyone is thinking of, but no-one dare mention?

What for fear Jakkass will come romping into the thread? :pac:

TheCaveman

Apartheid ended 27 April 1994

Todays date 19 June 2009

15 years ago.

but, lets blame it on apartheid.

K-9

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Bertie's not evil, just grubby.

Apartheid probably did cover it up, but the population's gotten poorer since then, and hasn't the population gone up a lot too in poor areas? Especially with immigrants fleeing trouble in Zimbabwe etc.


I used to play WoW (yeah I know ><) and one of the lads we played with was South African and every day at exactly the same time he'd disconnect because the power would fail and he'd have to go turn on his generator.

He was a proud Afrikaaner and hated the rulers of his country. And to be honest, it was hard to blame him. Apartheid may have been a factor in the trouble, but for example, Thabo Mbeki (spelling?) was very well educated. He ignored all this and allowed it to happen. That's not apartheid's fault tbh. It's too easy for us to blame apartheid and then ignore the current administration which does even less to stop these problems.

I'm sure some sections of its society are poorer and I'm sure some sections are better off. After the initial euphoria calmed down they had to deal with the normal, everyday political problems of running a country, which in fairness are far worse than we can contemplate. It's grand slating them from a distance but they are faced with huge social and economic problems.

The wealth which was in the hands of a few has now to be spread around all. In that way it's unfair to compare apartheid days to now. It really is a different country now that what it was.

The electricity point would be related to that as well. Would be nice to think that there's a magical fix, but it will take decades to make it a supposed 1st World country again. So yes, blame the current Govt., but the symtoms of Apartheid are going to be there for decades. It's similar to NI, only on a far worse scale.

speedboatchase

markesmith wrote: »

the belief that deflowering a virgin will cure AIDS

That one's true though

MikeC101

markesmith wrote: »

I don't want to play devil's advocate here - wait, actually I do - but is there a huge elephant in the room in this particular thread? Like a factor that everyone is thinking of, but no-one dare mention?

What, that apartheid may have kept the numbers of rapes / rapists down or something? Or kept the fact that this was happening suppressed?

I doubt it.

I'd either have expected it to be spun as "1 in 4 blacks are rapists, that's why we need to be in charge", or kept quiet on a "we're maintaining law and order" theme.

Or do you mean something else?

thelordofcheese

TheCaveman wrote: »

Apartheid ended 27 April 1994

Todays date 19 June 2009

15 years ago.

but, lets blame it on apartheid.

15 years isn't a very long time at all, to be honest.

General Zod

TheCaveman wrote: »

Apartheid ended 27 April 1994

Todays date 19 June 2009

15 years ago.

but, lets blame it on apartheid.

Noones laying the blame wholly on apartheid, but it is a factor. The whole damn place is a mess.

amacachi

Apartheid has feck all to do with it. The apartheid leaders would've handed over in their own time if given the chance. Perhaps I'm alone but I reckon most of them (I'm basing this on Zimbabwe, know more about it than SA) had good intentions. They were very flawed and had some ideals that don't work now, but they seemed to genuinely be trying to do the best for all the people of country, yes putting themselves first, but not leaving everywhere else to rot.
But yeah, instead the whites were pressured out and people who had no idea how to run anything were brought in. Look at Mbeki FFS, HIV doesn't cause AIDS. Few hundred thousand died early thanks to that. But hey, beats not being allowed vote.

thelordofcheese

amacachi wrote: »

Apartheid has feck all to do with it. The apartheid leaders would've handed over in their own time if given the chance. Perhaps I'm alone but I reckon most of them (I'm basing this on Zimbabwe, know more about it than SA) had good intentions. They were very flawed and had some ideals that don't work now, but they seemed to genuinely be trying to do the best for all the people of country, yes putting themselves first, but not leaving everywhere else to rot.
But yeah, instead the whites were pressured out and people who had no idea how to run anything were brought in. Look at Mbeki FFS, HIV doesn't cause AIDS. Few hundred thousand died early thanks to that. But hey, beats not being allowed vote.

Wait, so your say that Apartheid, a system that kept black people poor and uneducated, has NOTHING to do with the current generation of south africans (most of whom would have been of schoolin' age while apartheid was still on the go) being uneducated.


Wow