Fo you support the FIA or FOTA

thegoth

Can people state who they support AND back up their stance with reasons. I will kick the ball off.

I support the FIA here. The reason is that teams who enter the F1 championship must be able to make a profit from if, and not rely on handouts from large parent companies. For example. Imagine is car sales totally collapse in the next 6-18 months. Then, you can bet that Toyota, Renault, and BMW will follow Honda out the door. RedBull start to feel the pinch as people dont have €2.50 to spend on a small can of energy drink anymore so they leave, as Benetton did. Williams, who are already in finincial trouble cannot afford F1 anymore and go bust. Toro Rossa may go as they no longer get chasis and technical support from redbull. Brawn still have no backers for next year, so how can they compete? Force India and Ferrari seem in good condition finically.

This is no exaggeration. Unless teams can make money in F1, they will be nothing more than an expensive fast billboard for the parent companies. When those companies look at cutting costs, guess what is top of the consideration list ? F1

Also, large manufacturer teams have grown very inefficent. They know if they have to stick to a very small budget, small, efficent teams will have a huge advantage over them. I am certain this is Ferraris greatest fear. I remember Gary Anderson saying before ( early 2000's I think ) "The amount of waste I have seen in on of the large formula 1 engine suppliers would actually fund an F1 team"

I see the problem with the proposed new series is that it is make up of manufacturers with little history in F1 or a history with entering and leaving F1 when it suits them. Ferrari being the exception. What will happen to this series in 3-5 years time is most of its founding teams are not in it anymore ?

Finally, I believe that a team should not be able to buy success. Success should go to the team with the best engineering/driver talent, not who gets the most money thrown at it.

I know people have given out alot about Bernie and Max, but that does not change the facts I have outlined above

All opinions, but PLEASE support what you say. We can do with statements like. "I hate the FIA. They are evil." or "Good enough for Bernie". If you want to say that, fine, but back it up

Sabre0001

It depends on how much the FOTA rules are altered and how much overtaking there is I want to see real racing again rather than everything being decided weeks after a race or a parade of cars. I would also like to see the same rules being used two years in a row perhaps.

I don't think it's right to implement all of these caps and requirements - engines must last 4 races...but now you have to keep within a budget. Tyres must last a season.....but here's $10,000 to do so. However, at the same time I would like less bells and whistles on an F1 car so that there can be real racing - I'm sick of KERS already because it allows drivers who make a mistake out of a vital corner to regain themselves at a flick of a switch......let's keep that to the Need For Speed series thanks! Same with being able to set all these limits, functions, balances in-car.

I just want proper racing (that gets coverage...and hopefully when I'm not working. Got to see one meet of the British Touring Car Championship and was very entertained! )

thegoth

Good points. I agree with them all, but the problem with this series, is that as I see it, it will be very difficult for private teams to make money in it, therefore it becomes a marketing campaign, with some racing thrown in.

I like supporting racing teams, that having a racing culture. Supporting teams who operated within contraints, like Jordan did, and seeing these teams get good results, provided me with great a great sense of furfulment

dor83

I support FOTA. I admit that I will not be happy to watch F1 die if FOTA's championship succeeds but I have grown tired of the constant hindrance put on the teams because of Max and Bernie.

The teams have agreed that there should be cost cutting measures but the main problem, imo, is that they have no say in the decision making process at all and Bernie gets too much money. The FIA bring in new rules every year that make it harder for teams. KERS is the biggest example of this, the FIA expect the teams to spend big amounts of money developing it, adding a big new cost to the teams, while reducing costs in other areas, even though the teams all agree that it is a huge waste of money. This is utter stupidity imo, they say they want to cut costs while they are also adding a big cost to the teams, would the KERS money not be better spent elsewhere?

Then there is Bernie, he takes 50% of the revenue form the F1 brand, why should he get this much for his part? The teams and drivers are what attracts the fans to the sport not Bernie, in fact he deters them, if anything, by bringing GPs to new countries and then overcharging them. The costs associated with going to a GP now are way too much, I mean who honestly thinks travelling to a race is cheap? To compare it to football, I can get a season ticket to a Serie A team for less than €200, this would be enough to get me the cheapest grandstand at Monza for the weekend and that is too much imo.

I am also hopeful that the teams will implement new rules that will encourage racing again as opposed to the FIA who seem intent on making it harder to race and overtake every year. AS sabre said, less bells and whistles on the car to help the spectacle of the sport.

thegoth

I totally agree with every single word you said regarding wasted money in KERS and Bernie taking so much money.

The reason the FIA bring in new regulations every year, is to keep the speed of the cars in check. Its the big manufacturer teams that brought in the massive budgets, not the FIA.

I think that the new series is a good idea, but it has one MAJOR flaw. It is only open to companies/teams who do not need to make a profit. Thats why Williams and Force Inida won't touch it. I have a huge problem with this to be honest. Where is the place for the small indepenent team like Jordan, Sauber, Minardi ? The new F1 regulations would introduce a nice mix of manufacturer teams and independent teams. Who do you think had more fans, Jordan, Renault, Toyota, or BMW ? I'd say it was Jordan hands down.

dor83

thegoth wrote: »

The reason the FIA bring in new regulations every year, is to keep the speed of the cars in check. Its the big manufacturer teams that brought in the massive budgets, not the FIA.

Yes but the FIA's rules seem to be making it harder and harder for the teams to get close racing with overtaking and they don't seem to be willing to listen to the teams about it. Maybe the teams, who will have more knowledge of the technical side of the sport will be able to balance it so there is overtaking but the cars aren't going too fast.

I think that the new series is a good idea, but it has one MAJOR flaw. It is only open to companies/teams who do not need to make a profit. Thats why Williams and Force Inida won't touch it. I have a huge problem with this to be honest. Where is the place for the small indepenent team like Jordan, Sauber, Minardi ?

I think we should all wait and see about this before we judge it, they have said that they were willing to help the new teams out if they had stayed in F1 and also claimed that their cost cutting measures would save more money than the FIA's in the long run. I also see the fact that Brawn has stayed with them as a good sign, they are the only FOTA team who solely rely on F1/the new championship for their business to survive. They must be getting assurances that the cost will reduced enough for them to be able to compete.

Who do you think had more fans, Jordan, Renault, Toyota, or BMW ? I'd say it was Jordan hands down

I think that would depend on what country you were in, Jordan were hugely popular in Ireland which is a very small market, whereas Renault have become very popular in Spain because of Alonso.

thegoth

Good points, except what I was saying is that Jordan had fans because of the team, similar to Ferrari. Renault has fans because of its driver. Should Alonso switch to BMW, I'd say all those yellow and white flags would become blue and white overnight !!

I would be very happy with the new series if it does foster an environment where independent teams can not only survive but have a shot at winning

amacachi

I support neither side.
There is a huge need for cost cutting, FIA are goin too far too fast, FOTA are being children about it too. Apart from anything else I can see Toyota and BMW pulling out in the next 2/3 unless the world economy is transformed in that time.

Isn't there some silly policy of giving teams in their first year no prize money?

EvilMonkey

Thread needs a poll

I support FOTA, i dont necessarily support a new series but they were left with no other option. I hope that Bernie seeing the commercial value of F1 drop by over half(FOTA have all the major sponsors along with the best drivers) can jump in and save F1
I think FOTA's demands were reasonable and they were willing to sign a new Concorde guaranteeing they would stay in F1 until at least 2014. All they wanted was a say in the rules for all the teams and some stability. They had agreed to a €100m cap even though some FOTA members didn't want a cap at all and offered technical support to new teams.

The FIA on the other hand refused to budge on the major issues and have been slinging mud blaming FOTA rather than sort this out. F1 has been mismanaged recently with far too many rule changes in quick secession.

Slutmonkey57b

Poll: Is this thread pointless without a poll?

Yes or no?

TheChrisD

I'm sorta siding with the FIA. It's about time the sport cut costs slightly, but the teams were completely unwilling to take any sort of cap.

You don't necessarily need to have a huge amount of money to run a competitive championship. Both the IRL and A1GP run fine on tiny budgets. Sure they are both spec series, but at this rate who's to say F1 2010 won't be near-spec at this rate of Cosworth engine users?

It's about time the huge money spenders figured out how to do things cheaper, or else deal with the fact they can't have such technical freedom. A little unfair being able to buy your way to competitiveness.

Slutmonkey57b

The FIA's budget cap idea is a farce to start with.
FOTA's drive to cut costs is centred around the idea that if you restrict the supply side of costs (testing), then you've got a more effective system. The "cap" (minus marketing, hospitality, promotion, drivers, key salaries, engines, "suppliers" costs etc etc...) is meaningless, and easily dodged. The reason costs went so high in F1 in the first place is because of the rise of aerodynamic importance. Which was caused by.... the FIA introducing stupid rules that limited the mechanical grip of the cars (such as grooved tyres). FOTA's solution is not only simpler, easier to police, but it's a lot more effective too.

And the FIA has no business complaining about "other people" raising costs when:
They charged new entrants a $48 million "entry fee"
They tripled the cost of F1 driver licenses.
They foisted the stupid KERS system on the teams, washing millions of development money down the drain on a hare brained fig leaf "environmental" initiative.

smellslikeshoes

Anyone any figures for what Bernie actually brings home from F1 every year? Its well over the budget cap he plans to impose I would guess :pac: He is worth 1.466 billion sterling according to the Sunday Times Rich List.

Cutting Bernie out of the equation would bring down costs a long way in itself.
As long as this new championship works hard to make it accessible for non manufacturer teams I'm all for it.

I support the teams because F1 is supposed to be the absolute pinnacle of motorsport, and if budget caps are brought in, it will cease to be, simple as that.

I still won't be sure of this whole thing happening until there is serious plans put in place and even then will still be kind of expecting it to not go ahead until I see the cars on the grid

The one thing that does have me licking my lips over is the prospect of some different venues from F1, if it can get some of the F1 gems like Monaco and Spa and some places were F1 hasn't gone or at least hasn't gone in the last few years I would be really happy.

I haven't watched F1 in a few years, all the newer regulations like the current set up for qualifying, changes to the point system and Kers completely drove me away but the prospect of a new championship is re kindling my interest in open wheeled racing, hopefully if it does go ahead it will live up to everyone's expectations and be what F1 hasn't been for the last few years.

Hagar

I support FOTA, they are the drivers, the teams, they have the cars. What do FIA bring to the party that FOTA can't do for themselves? IMHO FIA just make a lot of money out of other peoples expertise.

Slutmonkey57b

The new qualifying system is really good actually. No more cluster****s with 30 cars on the track at the same time, spreads the tension out over the full hour. I really see no reason why the breakaway series could run into trouble - they have tracks available, they have all the drivers under contract, they have the money and resources to set it up, they can just copy the current regs for next year, and all they really have to do is set up an admin arm and flog it. It'll be an easy sell too. That's why Bernie is panicking and Max is losing his cool. They know that if FOTA have the balls to follow through they've got a lot of problems

pburns

I support FOTA. They have a lot of work to do organising tracks, TV rights etc. and they will have ceed some control to an autonomous body to enforce rules (even if they have a bigger say is establishing the regulations).

However enough is enough. They have to use this opportunity to negeotiate a bigger say in how the sport is run and reduce the power of the FIA. If they can get rid of Max so much the better. I really believe they have a very strong hand at the moment. No credible team is gonna want to join a series without Ferrari, McLaren, Alonso, Hamilton et al.

Also, even though this row is with the FIA I believe many of Bernie's actions are contrary to the wishes of the teams & fans. For example moving away from the classic European tracks (and N. America) and insisting on races in Middle East backwaters just because an oil-rich sheikh has grandiose ideas about promoting his country:rolleyes:.

The teams also deserve a bigger slice of the earning from F1 than BE doles out to them (or rather doesn't according to Whitmarsh today!).

This was a long time coming. Max's willingness to use his authority to try destroy McLaren and Ron shows he is willing to use his office to pursue personal vendettas. However intelligent and articulate in interviews he can't help letting the mask slip (the loonies comment today, dissing JYS).

I really believe at this stage that FOTA at the very least can clip Max's wings and dent his power even if they can't overthrow him.

Oblomov

The FIA set the rules, supplies the officials and police the Formula one regulations, appoint stewards and time keepers, secretary to the meetings, organise the medical staff and ensure the correct calibre of technical official is appointed. The circuit organises the Marshalls and the country motor organisation organises the scrutineers, etc.

This holds not only for F1 but all FIA sponsored motor racing.

The advertising is geared from each GP to the country it is broadcast in, so if fifty countries, fifty different brands on the track side hoardings.... then franchise, then corporate entertainment, marquees etc, sponsors guests, entertainment..... team members, family, drivers etc etc....the circuit owners/ operators are charged for the ' honour' of being allowed a F! race.

The teams make a profit through their own sponsorship, advertising off circuit, merchandising, etc... even to guest speakers at functions etc... specialist functions open to trade, colleges etc...

So, take out the CVC, put in your own advertising and marketing operation, sell the track side hoardings, allow the circuit operators a slice of that income, take out operating costs and pay the teams additional monies to reduce running costs, allow the sponsors a rebate against length and size of decals on the cars, this is already costed for both size and place of signage.

The number of circuits lining up is becoming quite impressive, Bernie has had to jump in or Silverstone would have been the first to sign up.... LOL... some of the German circuits have stepped forward, Abu Dhabi want a slice.

The main reason for slowing the cars down, so that the decals can be read as the car circulates, the advertisers have brought this up over the years and it remains a very important point.

Breakaway group.... it will work, Monaco have stated they do not want Formula One without Ferrari. The only problem, will Ferrari act the bully boy and try to intimidate the other teams, the emphasis on the credit crunch, this has already been used to reduce workforces primarily to move to robotics and reduce the largest of all outgoings in any orgaisation. Labour.

The companies will emerge, just as they did from the last recession, leaner and meaner and willing to do business with the new kids on the block, China.

F1 in its new guise, marketed strongly and will the multi national compnaies helping will overshadow the FIA and become the formula to be in.

amacachi

Oblomov wrote: »

The main reason for slowing the cars down, so that the decals can be read as the car circulates, the advertisers have brought this up over the years and it remains a very important point.

Really? Would've thought they'd insist on HD in that case, which would be a quite a bit easier to implement than an array of rule changes.

Ghost Train

would support FOTA

Think the sport needs more stability, teams have been making major changes in line with the FIA, no testing, major new car design regulations, slicks etc. Work towards a budget cap and building up the grid with smaller teams... but don't totally turn the sport in to something completely different putting long established teams at a disadvantage to help bring in some smaller teams

Don't want to see a split, because it won't be good for anyone, but if it happens I'll blame the FIA for trying to change the sport from one year to the next too often

robinph

I just want to see Bernie come in a crack some heads together, you have to watch out for the little guys.

The Fota thing will only be Ferrari after a year as after the split there will be no sponsors interested as they won't be interested in covering two series, so Brawn will disappear becasue they will still have a plain white car with a yellow stripe, Prodrive won't have won any prize money or TV rights money because that is all tied up in FIA contracts, the two Red Bulls will pull out and Toyota and Renault will make the same descision as Honda and run away. Fota won't be getting the likes of a Monaco race as that will be locked in as FIA only and they can't exactly shut the streets down twice, there will be plenty of other circuits interested, but how many TV channles are going to show another series? TV channels have already paid their money to Bernie, which they will not get back, wiothout the TV channels then there is no sponsors, then there is no races.

Williams and Force India will get a couple of years of winning and the FIA prize money, then once Fota series has failed it will too and there will be nothing left at that level...

...until Flavio comes along in a few years time and takes over Bernies position as top dog and restarts a single series.

EvilMonkey

robinph wrote: »

I just want to see Bernie come in a crack some heads together, you have to watch out for the little guys.

The Fota thing will only be Ferrari after a year as after the split there will be no sponsors interested as they won't be interested in covering two series, so Brawn will disappear becasue they will still have a plain white car with a yellow stripe, Prodrive won't have won any prize money or TV rights money because that is all tied up in FIA contracts, the two Red Bulls will pull out and Toyota and Renault will make the same descision as Honda and run away. Fota won't be getting the likes of a Monaco race as that will be locked in as FIA only and they can't exactly shut the streets down twice, there will be plenty of other circuits interested, but how many TV channles are going to show another series? TV channels have already paid their money to Bernie, which they will not get back, wiothout the TV channels then there is no sponsors, then there is no races.

Williams and Force India will get a couple of years of winning and the FIA prize money, then once Fota series has failed it will too and there will be nothing left at that level...

...until Flavio comes along in a few years time and takes over Bernies position as top dog and restarts a single series.

Do you think its ok for the fia to have a meeting to decide a punishment for a team and use this to completely rewrite the rules and then tell the teams to quickly sign up and if they dont like it to **** off we can get someone to replace you. Because thats what this is about not some side show about Budget caps, manufactures pulling out or not wanting new teams.

Having thought about it i think a FOTA series would crush F1 if they got the right balance, FOTA has all the smartest engineers and strategists(Ross:)) in F1 I think they could organise a decent series I'm not saying it wouldn't be touch and go for a few years.
Anyway no point in talking about a FOTA series until they announce details and it may never happen, do you support them in their stance against the FIA?

robinph

EvilMonkey wrote: »

... do you support them in their stance against the FIA?

No.

If they have a problem with the way the sport is organised by the FIA then running away is not the way to solve it. The FIA governs the regulation of more than just F1 so the F1 teams throwing a hissy fit is not going to bring it down. They have to work with the FIA, having two series will be a disaster for all concerned, but all the teams will suffer far more than the FIA will when it all falls apart.

EvilMonkey

robinph wrote: »

No.

If they have a problem with the way the sport is organised by the FIA then running away is not the way to solve it. The FIA governs the regulation of more than just F1 so the F1 teams throwing a hissy fit is not going to bring it down. They have to work with the FIA, having two series will be a disaster for all concerned, but all the teams will suffer far more than the FIA will when it all falls apart.

Fair enough but i dont think the FIA were going to change their position as far as i can tell FOTA have tried to work with the FIA and the FIA have continually blocked them saying sign up to the new rules first then we will discus your concerns with no grantees and in the meantime the fia have repeatedly tried to split FOTA.

I dont think the teams are trying to bring the fia down they want to massively invest in F1 and have their investment protected.

The two flagship series the FIA run, F1 and WRC are hardly a shining examples of how to do things maybe their is a better way.

kierank01

I completely see the need to reduce costs, and support the 45 million budget cap.

But I support the teams desire for a level playing field. It is a crasy idea to have those on a 45 million budget have greater technical freedom than those on an unlimited budget.

All the teams were saying this a couple of weeks ago.

I do not like the idea of a new series, because it has the potential to be soleless, and as others have said, if it becomes financially unsustainable, all the teams will drop out, like Honda (but they dropped out of F1 didn't they)

Grim.

i support neither

Oblomov

Really? Would've thought they'd insist on HD in that case, which would be a quite a bit easier to implement than an array of rule changes.

How long has HD be around...?? and recieved by all? and they have been trying since the turbo monsters with the grenade quali engines.... it has not 'just happeded' .

Slutmonkey57b

Bernie demanded a wodge of extra money years ago for HD and then never delivered it. The prices he charges for standard f1 coverage is high enough as it is, I think he just isn't getting any takers and can't be bothered making the capital investment.

Oblomov

I cannot honestly see FOTA failing in promoting and running a new formula.

The whole A1GP organisation only failed becasue it failed to attract the advertising money. With the present situation the teams will have spoken to their various sponsors to determine the viability of a new formula. The marketing, the selling of the new formula, given the amount of money CVC take from the formula, won't be difficult.

The worrying thing, the wording of the press releases, the wording of Spanky seeing himself as the saviour of F1 with his initiatives to save money and in turn Formula one.... like a religous fanatic on a mission. And, that's dangerous.

robinph

Oblomov wrote: »

The whole A1GP organisation only failed becasue it failed to attract the advertising money.

...and there is obviously loads of sponsors willing to throw cash at F1 at the moment as you can see from that plain white car leading the championship at the moment. :rolleyes:

Oblomov

Psst, what make is the car?

All it usually has is SAFETY CAR written on it.

Oblomov

Ohh you mean the Virgin Brawn...

But read the conditions of the agreement with Virgin....

Gives Virgin all the media marketing rights to do with as they will....

robinph

Oblomov wrote: »

Ohh you mean the Virgin Brawn...

But read the conditions of the agreement with Virgin....

Gives Virgin all the media marketing rights to do with as they will....

But more importantly what money does it give Brawn? If it wasn't for them having all the prize money coming to them at the end of this year now then they would really be struggling to carry on for next year with the main form of income of sponsorship being virtually non existent.

It's not Virgin Brawn though is it, they have not paid enough for the title? The only teams I can think of with a title sponsor would be Vodafone Mclaren and Marlbro Ferrari, and that is pretty pointless with all the advertising restrictions. Red Bull and Torro Rosso admitedly don't need any other sponsors, but they are the exception.

ManwitaPlan

£45 mil budget cap is ridiculous imo. I also think Max Mosley is a complete egomaniac and dreadful for the sport. Hearing him call Briatore a lunatic and referring to the "looney" teams was cringeworhty.

Some budget cap is needed though but there also needs to be more emphasis placed on what is important for the fans, namely quality of racing.

Watching Button choke away in Rosbergs dirty air today with no chance of overtaking was painful.

I know one thing for sure though, any split would be a disastorous and would be a very very sad day for the sport..unfortuneately there seems to be a lot of very big personalities in F1 with their fingers on grenade pins only to willing to pull them to prove a point. A split is certainly not unimaginable.

EvilMonkey

robinph wrote: »

...and there is obviously loads of sponsors willing to throw cash at F1 at the moment as you can see from that plain white car leading the championship at the moment. :rolleyes:

Brawn dont need sponsors this year its been bankrolled by Honda. And their was a new sticker on the car this weekend. Next year the car will be covered in stickers.
The difficulty in attracting sponsors is down to the confusion about whats going to happen with F1. Once it is clear it wont be as difficult. Why would someone give Brawn 100M a year sponsorship when they keep hearing that their is going to be a 40M budget cap?
Do you think Ross would stick with FOTA if he didn't think it would/could work?
Would he have taken over the team if he didn't think he could raise the sponsorship?

Oblomov

well, Max has dropped the threat of legal action.

Brawn is quoted as saying the FIA are obliged to offer to run the 'New' formula under EU rules.

Bernie has become quiet about issuing writs to all and sundry.

Williams' CEO is impressed with Brawn's confidence in the new formula.

Charlie-Bravo

My vote is for FOTA. I am a Toyota fan, but I really hate to say this, it is really down to which series Ferr*ri is in. Which series do you think you'll watch, the one with Ferr*ri in it or the other one?! Thank the lord Toyota and Ferr*ri are on the same side. Force India and Williams are in trouble, not for submitting unconditional entries, but because they will have to race next year under the FIA F1 series.