Roundup

cL0h

Hi all,
I've been reading through the Gardening sub forum here and am amazed at how many people advocate using Roundup to blast weeds before planting veg etc.
I think people should be aware that Roundup kills healthy soil bacteria, impairs the growth of earth worms and has been shown in tests to affect human and animal physiology including destroying placenta cells and affecting hormone levels.
Even if you are not going to eat produce from the garden it is a GM product. The makers Monsanto have claimed patents on their genetic alterations and in fact when you buy Monsanto seeds you only license their use and don't in fact own them.
Sure it will nuke your weeds but be aware its nasty stuff.

Sonnenblumen

Come on, the active ingredient in Roundup is used in several systemic weedkillers and I would be interested in any pointers to your claims of side effects using such weedkiller.

I'm always suspicious of advocates of natural methods only, on what basis? There are hundreds if not thousands of natural occuring substances/events which can cause problems to humans. You can start with the sun and work your way down to microbes.

Nobody is advocating irresponsible use, on the contrary, controlled and responsible use is by most findings not injurious to plants, man or pets.

Not everyone is prepared to cover the earth with black PVC or has the time to prick or pick weed.

Conscientious use yes, but lets be practical. If anyone working in a garden anywhere in Ireland believes they can make a difference to the global environmental issues, well that's fine by me, but honestly speaking it's a bit like peeing against the wind.

old boy

it is the same as ireland using only envoirenmetly friendly everything, and china and india opening a coal driven power plant weekly, a waste of time put at least ithe previous poster will get some of his own back, i.m.o. some green measures are only a cover for extra taxation.

Dr Galen

i'd also like to see any real info on the by-products and breakdowns of weedkillers such as Roundup. I'll have a hunt around on google myself and post anything interesting, but OP I'd like to know what you have been reading?

@Sonnenblumen

I'm no big save the earth head, but I do take the attitude that every little bit helps. I'm well aware of that the growth of countries like China and India outstrips most of the measures the the whole of the EU states are putting forward regarding pollution and climate change, but still we have all to do our bit regardless of what others are or aren't doing.

On a more local level, having lived on or been around farms most of my life, I've seen the localised damage that misuse of pesticides, poor effluent management etc can do.

I'd agree with you no-one is advocating misuse of such chemicals (here anyways) and I wouldn't want to be advocating a big bad agri-business CT type thread. I would still like to see some of the data looking at both sides of things though

CJhaughey

The worst thing about chemicals like roundup is that when they are used to kill weeds you are left with a load of yellowed dead looking vegetation that looks worse than the weeds did when they were growing!
It is down to sheer laziness.
Strimming and pulling will deal with most weeds.
Fine if you want to spray your own patch to death but I have seen it used in school playgrounds while kids are in school!
http://www.chem-tox.com/pesticides/

Degsy

In the words of Ice-T.."get yourself a hoe".
Hoe your garden once a week and weeds wont get a foothold..ten minutes work is all it takes.

monke

round up was taken of the market for awile in doing so they came up wit a less harmfull mix. if you were going into a garden to re do it, would you use a hoe, i dont think so. round up is the only way. oh and everybody stop driving your cars cause you are harming all the animals and people wit your fumes............not likely

Degsy

monke wrote: »

round up was taken of the market for awile in doing so they came up wit a less harmfull mix. if you were going into a garden to re do it, would you use a hoe, i dont think so. round up is the only way. oh and everybody stop driving your cars cause you are harming all the animals and people wit your fumes............not likely

My point was an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The Sweeper

This is true, but it's a different story if you have an overgrown block. I'm building up a garden from scratch now the house is built. I had gorse bushes that'd come up to your hip on this property. I'm not going to fix that with a hoe.

I decided not to fix it with roundup either though, and hired a bloke with a kanga to strip the land. I now have an enormous compost-type heap in the corner of the garden, and the rest is stripped. Still full of roots and bits and pieces, but I intend to build my garden upwards over it, so from NOW a hoe might help.

Dr Galen

it looks like there are two points being made here

One about RoundUp and the like and the other regarding environmental issues etc.

In a case like yours MAJD I'd be inclined to go a similar route as yourself, and that might involve, as suggested, the conscientious use of such weedkillers. Like I said though I'd like to see more data backing up the OP's point of view

skywalker_208

Degsy wrote: »

In the words of Ice-T.."get yourself a hoe".
Hoe your garden once a week and weeds wont get a foothold..ten minutes work is all it takes.

surely that depends on the size of the garden? I would have presumed anyone who goes to the trouble of purchasing expensive roundup has quite an area of weeds to cover

Gordon Gekko

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Conscientious use yes, but lets be practical. If anyone working in a garden anywhere in Ireland believes they can make a difference to the global environmental issues, well that's fine by me, but honestly speaking it's a bit like peeing against the wind.

You of all people (being a gardening pro) should know the difference even one patch of chemical-free land can make. I look at my garden compared to my neighbours' gardens (with their grass monoculture) and am constantly amazed by how much more 'alive' my garden is with all sorts of wildlife. So yes, I genuinely believe I'm making a difference. Is it miniscule in the global scheme? Absolutely. Is it worth the extra work on my part? I reckon so. Am I making a difference in terms of (a) promoting decent habitat for wildlife and (b) not further polluting the local environment? I think so.

Roundup etc. are 'safe' today so far as we know. Plenty of things we once 'knew' to be safe have been proven to be anything but safe. I'd rather not take the chance of trusting global chemical corporations or the 'independent' testers they pay to tell us their products are safe.

I realise you're in a different position as you don't have the time to clear ground by hand (nor are your clients willing to pay the labour costs I'm sure) but I think domestic gardeners should try not to use chemicals. What's the rush in using chemicals to get a 'quick fix'? A little patience in clearing ground never killed anyone. Domestic gardeners don't need instant results, livelihoods don't depend on a garden being weed free.

I think people need to chill out and go with the flow, and realise that nature is never going to be pristine or weed free.

Organicguy

Hi. My friend in Galway has been approved by the Dept of Agriculture to Manufacture Organic Weed-Killer. He was banned from here for advocating it. I guess the Chemical guys got the better of him.

Sonnenblumen

GG

I respect your viewpoint and that's fine but Nature is rarely fine and dandy, in fact within the garden area, Nature is full of conflict and control measures whatever methodology is applied is effectively thwarting Nature.

If you believe your methodolgies and net results make a difference, that's also fine. But many gardeners do not subscribe to the wild and natural look, in fact the vast majority are burdened with the demands of maintaining a cultivated look offering certain aesthetics. Again all very subjective, but ultimately the greatest challenge confronting Nature within the 'garden' area is not the use/over-dependence on the use of chemical weed control, although the zealot regulatory bureaucrats makes one think otherwise, but the demise of green areas. Anything that makes green areas more efficient, more manageable and therefore more useable is the ultimate differentiator.

SB

The Sweeper

Organicguy wrote: »

Hi. My friend in Galway has been approved by the Dept of Agriculture to Manufacture Organic Weed-Killer. He was banned from here for advocating it. I guess the Chemical guys got the better of him.

I strongly doubt that your friend was banned for advocating organic weed killer. What he probably WAS banned for was registering and promoting his product with his first post. If he'd read his sign-up email properly he'd have seen that we specifically ask you not to register to this site just to promote yourself, your products, your services or your business generally. If you want to advertise, use adverts.ie.

Your friend may be permitted to talk about his product if he asks the mods in advance if he can mention it and answer people's questions on it on a specific thread, and if they approve that request.

If you like, PM me and I'll look at reinstating your friend's account, if he agrees to abide by the rules of the website.

Dr Galen

Organicguy wrote: »

Hi. My friend in Galway has been approved by the Dept of Agriculture to Manufacture Organic Weed-Killer. He was banned from here for advocating it. I guess the Chemical guys got the better of him.

I don't remember seeing any posts recently about and organic weedkiller made in Ireland on this forum?

If your friend wants to get in touch with myself and the other Mods of this forum following any conversation with the Admins of this site we can have a discussion regarding how he can talk about his product and answers users questions etc, and still be within the site-wide rules of boards.ie.

bugsntinas

i use round up and am very impressed with it.ok it might not be "enviromently friendly" but it works.i can't hoe my drive where the weeds come up and we have half an acre of land that consists of grass,dock weed,brambles and bloody buttercups.i'll use it on all the nasties as and when but next year i am having a special area just for the wildlife so that'll be my bit.

cL0h

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

I said though I'd like to see more data backing up the OP's point of view

Sorry for the delay

Here's a few sources I read about the adverse effects of roundup.

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/GTARW.php

http://www.springerlink.com/content/d13171q7k863l446/fulltext.html

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7728/7728.html

I realise that not everyone can hoe every day and to be honest my initial point was about personal health (as in your wife and kids if you're growing veg) and local ecology (run off into streams, your water table etc.) as opposed to "saving the planet".
As Mystik Monkey said you can be conscientious without going over the top.

As for SonnenBlumen rubbishing my opinion I believe he is a commercial gardener in a Rec.Gardening forum. As the seanfhocal goes: "I tír na ndall is ea fear na leath shúile ina rí" - In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

Dr Galen

cL0h wrote: »

Sorry for the delay

Here's a few sources I read about the adverse effects of roundup.

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/GTARW.php

http://www.springerlink.com/content/d13171q7k863l446/fulltext.html

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7728/7728.html

I realise that not everyone can hoe every day and to be honest my initial point was about personal health (as in your wife and kids if you're growing veg) and local ecology (run off into streams, your water table etc.) as opposed to "saving the planet".
As Mystik Monkey said you can be conscientious without going over the top.

As for SonnenBlumen rubbishing my opinion I believe he is a commercial gardener in a Rec.Gardening forum. As the seanfhocal goes: "I tír na ndall is ea fear na leath shúile ina rí" - In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

Thanks for the references. I'll have a read of them when I get a chance

On your other point regarding commercial gardeners on the forum. Well the way I see it, as long as everyone who posts here stays within the charter, and the general site rules of boards.ie, I'm not for caring who they are or what they do in real life. Everyone's opinion when expressed properly is valid, and open for discussion.

Sonnenblumen

cL0h wrote: »

Sorry for the delay

Here's a few sources I read about the adverse effects of roundup.

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/GTARW.php

http://www.springerlink.com/content/d13171q7k863l446/fulltext.html

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7728/7728.html

I realise that not everyone can hoe every day and to be honest my initial point was about personal health (as in your wife and kids if you're growing veg) and local ecology (run off into streams, your water table etc.) as opposed to "saving the planet".
As Mystik Monkey said you can be conscientious without going over the top.

As for SonnenBlumen rubbishing my opinion I believe he is a commercial gardener in a Rec.Gardening forum. As the seanfhocal goes: "I tír na ndall is ea fear na leath shúile ina rí" - In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

I would like to clarify that I did not rubbish your opinion, unless of course a view which is contrary to your view to be 'rubbishing'. I am not a 'commercial gardener' but am professionally engaged in landscape garden design & construction etc.

Perhaps at this point you require more research than folklore to make a point?

Cabaal

After watching the world according to Monsanto I don't think I'll ever use roundup and for that matter I will be more mindful of whats used in general http://wideeyecinema.com/?p=105

I'd recommend watching it, its streamed on the above link

John mac

is there an alternative to roundup?

ie one that will nuke everything. or one that will kill everything bar grass?


i use roundup around the fence line of my site (200M) .

zulutango

Being new to gardening, I wasn't aware of the possible adverse effects of round-up. A few people who I thought knew their stuff insisted i should use round-up on certain areas.

So, I picked out one area where I hope to grow vegetables in the future. It killed pretty much everything, and I was pretty impressed, until it occured to me that there must be more to this than meets the eye. Hence, I checked this forum for a discussion about it.

Having read this thread, I'm a bit concerned about sowing vegetables in the area mentioned. I was thinking of putting raied beds there, so if i got some good, uncontaminated topsoil for the raised beds, would this make it safe?

Does round-up stay in the soil, or does it bio-degrade over time? I've no interest in anything that will permanently contaminate the soil.

Sonnenblumen

zulutango wrote: »

Being new to gardening, I wasn't aware of the possible adverse effects of round-up. A few people who I thought knew their stuff insisted i should use round-up on certain areas.

So, I picked out one area where I hope to grow vegetables in the future. It killed pretty much everything, and I was pretty impressed, until it occured to me that there must be more to this than meets the eye. Hence, I checked this forum for a discussion about it.

Having read this thread, I'm a bit concerned about sowing vegetables in the area mentioned. I was thinking of putting raied beds there, so if i got some good, uncontaminated topsoil for the raised beds, would this make it safe?

Does round-up stay in the soil, or does it bio-degrade over time? I've no interest in anything that will permanently contaminate the soil.

You seem to have made up your mind about Roundup despite still having some unanswered questions and asserting that the chemical has adverse effects on soil?

Discodog

This is an endless problem. Years ago I worked for a huge chemical corporation. I applied massive amounts of Gramoxone (Paraquat) onto test sites & monitored the consequences for wildlife. It proved to be virtually impossible to apply enough to have an effect.

I am not prepared to assume that Monsato or Roundup are the enemy or that GM is necessarily wrong. Organic may be better but plenty of organic products are toxic & many herbicides/pesticides are derived from organic (natural) sources.

Most manufacturers give very detailed instructions which are usually ignored & this can have a big influence on the safety of the product. I too am a professional & there are plenty of situations where the only real option is a systemic herbicide.

zulutango

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

You seem to have made up your mind about Roundup despite still having some unanswered questions and asserting that the chemical has adverse effects on soil?

No, I haven't made up my mind about it. That's why I am here asking the question. I don't want to grow vegetables on an area where i've used it if it's likley to be harmful. I just don't know if that's the case or not.

And I don't want to use something that will not biodegrade. Does Roundup biodegrade over time? If so, how long do I have to wait before the soil is safe again?

Sonnenblumen

zulutango wrote: »

No, I haven't made up my mind about it. That's why I am here asking the question. I don't want to grow vegetables on an area where i've used it if it's likley to be harmful. I just don't know if that's the case or not.

And I don't want to use something that will not biodegrade. Does Roundup biodegrade over time? If so, how long do I have to wait before the soil is safe again?

Roundup is safe, biodegrades on contact with soil and I would have no hesitation growing on treated soil after 7-10 days. If building Raised Beds, the fresh soil layered on top will if necessary would allow me to work the treated area sooner.

zulutango

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Roundup is safe, biodegrades on contact with soil and I would have no hesitation growing on treated soil after 7-10 days. If building Raised Beds, the fresh soil layered on top will if necessary would allow me to work the treated area sooner.

thanks for that. So, effectively, it biodegrades and there is no trace of it after some time? If that's the case, I can't see the problem with it either.