Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Care to share a personal concern about Lisbon

Options
2»

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    netron wrote: »

    How can we tolerate an EU Commission made up of failed unelected politicians like Neil Kinnock?

    Thats just not on - we need an ELECTED EU Commission.

    If a USE (United States of Europe) is offered to me - i'd vote for it. I really do NOT like this political class lawyer bollocks of Lisbon. They want to create a superstate without any democratic accountability - i will vote No to that.

    Amen, brother.


  • Options
    #33
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    netron wrote: »
    How can we tolerate an EU Commission made up of failed unelected politicians like Neil Kinnock?

    Thats just not on - we need an ELECTED EU Commission.
    That's just empty rhetoric. Why do we need an elected commission? What are the distinct advantages of electing the posts? Can't you think of any disadvantages?

    Or are you one of those democratic fundamentalists who subscribe to the idea that anything that's voted on is intrinsically and unchallengably superior to anything that's not?
    I really do NOT like this political class lawyer bollocks of Lisbon.
    "Political class lawyer bollocks"? Now you're just making up stuff to object to.
    They want to create a superstate without any democratic accountability - i will vote No to that.
    Who, exactly, wants to create that?


  • Options
    #34
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Are you one of those democratic fundamentalists who subscribe to the idea that anything that's voted on is intrinsically and unchallengably superior to anything that's not?

    You don't think that the head of state should be elected - thus you favour dictatorship. That's a valid position; there have been numerous people who have argued in favour of dictatorship, totalitarian or not.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    'They want to create a superstate without any democratic accountability - i will vote No to that.'
    Who, exactly, wants to create that?

    You do, by definition. Unless you believe that there is some merit in the weak, disjointed Parliament...


  • Options
    #35
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    RandomName2 wrote:
    You don't think that the head of state should be elected - thus you favour dictatorship. That's a valid position; there have been numerous people who have argued in favour of dictatorship, totalitarian or not.
    What nonsense, you say the EU is a dictatorship because all of the institutions are not elected ?
    Let me ask you thin, Is the Irish senate elected ? No.
    Do we live in a Dictatorship ? No.
    RandomName2 wrote:
    You do, by definition. Unless you believe that there is some merit in the weak, disjointed Parliament...
    So why then do you oppose a treaty that gives more power to the Parliament at the expense of the Commission ?


  • Options
    #36
    Mario007
    Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭Mario007


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    You don't think that the head of state should be elected - thus you favour dictatorship. That's a valid position; there have been numerous people who have argued in favour of dictatorship, totalitarian or not.



    You do, by definition. Unless you believe that there is some merit in the weak, disjointed Parliament...

    ok firstly you go for democracy and in the next few lines you say that parliament is disjointed and weak...parliament being the corner stone of democracy:confused:

    on the note of the dictatorship, is brian cowen a dictator, cos he wasnt elected by the people to be a taioseach? is the general secretary of the un a dictator? is the pope a dictator? is vaclav klaus, a man who all you anti-lisbon people love, a dictator seeing that he was elected to be a president by the czech parliament and the czech senate?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Mario007 wrote: »
    ok firstly you go for democracy and in the next few lines you say that parliament is disjointed and weak...parliament being the corner stone of democracy:confused:

    on the note of the dictatorship, is brian cowen a dictator, cos he wasnt elected by the people to be a taioseach? is the general secretary of the un a dictator? is the pope a dictator? is vaclav klaus, a man who all you anti-lisbon people love, a dictator seeing that he was elected to be a president by the czech parliament and the czech senate?

    The Parliament in the eu is bogged down with problems. It should be much stronger than it is.

    Brian Cowen probably should have been specifically elected Taoiseach - but it doesn't really matter because:
    1. He's Irish. 2. He was elected as the second most important FF member (as far as I know) - hence Tanaiste if there was no coalition 3. In the next general election the public can vote him out. (Note the big problems in the uk about Brown's lack of legitimacy and not deciding to call an election after becoming PM)

    UN - just a loose weak military organisation. It's not as if they set any tax rates.

    Vatican - technically a dictatorship (indeed it has been termed the least democratic monarchy in the world by a number of historians). But - who cares? Mugabe could be elected Pope and it wouldn't make that much difference - no legislative authority outside Vatican City... although some significant influence over the flock in general I suppose.

    Czerch President - No legislative power I know of. Has the power of veto (like Irish President and UK monarch). Why Czech President is capable of using the veto and Irish President wouldn't be... I don't know. Not much of a dictatorship though.


  • Options
    #38
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The Parliament in the eu is bogged down with problems. It should be much stronger than it is.
    If only there was some way we could boost the Parliament's influence...


  • Options
    #39
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That's just empty rhetoric. Why do we need an elected commission? What are the distinct advantages of electing the posts? Can't you think of any disadvantages?

    Or are you one of those democratic fundamentalists who subscribe to the idea that anything that's voted on is intrinsically and unchallengably superior to anything that's not? "Political class lawyer bollocks"? Now you're just making up stuff to object to. Who, exactly, wants to create that?

    I know it's redundant, but should it be strictly necessary to ask for obviously imagined claims to be proved. It seems that in most, if not all cases, the claim is abandoned, and at some point another false claim is made. How much weight should an obviously false claim be afforded, even in an open forum such as this?


  • Options
    #40
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    well would you be opposed to an elected body as opposed to an unelected body?

    why?


  • Options
    #41
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    well would you be opposed to an elected body as opposed to an unelected body?

    why?
    I would be opposed to an elected Commission, yes. Directly-elected commissioners would necessarily pander to their respective electorates, and as such would have a direct conflict of interest with their oath to act in the interests of the Union as a whole.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    like the council of ministers and the leaders council (offical name?) ????


  • Options
    #43
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    ...pander to their respective electorates...
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    like the council of ministers and the European Council

    Yes, you are right. Like those bodies. However the nature of our democracy is that politicans advocate for those who elect them. No one is saying that the system is perfect. As long as they act reasonably and fairly the system works.

    The question you raised is whether a directly elected commission would work better, and I like many others think not. Remember we do have an elected commission, just not a directly elected one. The EU operates on consensus. Surely everyone would agree that is a good thing? A directly elected commission would end up bickering over which states got the most benefit from any decisions.

    Actually in a way the EU commission has some parallels with the US cabinet, though we have much greater oversight of it's functions and it has much less power.

    Ix


  • Options
    #44
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    well things need to be done to raise turnout in elections

    one issue brought up was lack of knowledge and care for the eu

    they vote an mep - and that mep while they can do alot is only one part of the whole


  • Options
    #45
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    Rb wrote: »
    Sorry Pope Buckfast, but a considerable amount of mainland Europeans don't even consider Ireland to be part of Europe.

    Similarly, a considerable amount of Irish people don't want to be "European".


    When the smoking ban was introduced, bars and clubs decided to build a smoking area... many of which were simply a decked area with a roof.

    A pub near my area was so proud of the fine job that the carpenters did that they actually advertised the smoking area in the local papers and on a bill-board on the way into the town, which read

    '****'s Bar, Main Street, come and see our European style veranda'

    It was if to say, these are the kind that they have over in Europe.


  • Options
    #46
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    One of my first real awakenings regarding the Lisbon Treaty was when I watched this 3 minute video of a Danish MEP expressing his concerns about the lack of transparency of the document, I found it eye opening:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kr0Foq3CQE


  • Options
    #47
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    the_dark_side wrote: »
    One of my first real awakenings regarding the Lisbon Treaty was when I watched this 3 minute video of a Danish MEP expressing his concerns about the lack of transparency of the document, I found it eye opening:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kr0Foq3CQE

    Jens-Peter Bonde has opposed every single EU treaty. It's not a case of him being in any way neutral - it's only a question of what he chooses to find wrong with them.

    I did retain some respect for him (although much reduced after his 'accidental' mention of abortion when talking about Lisbon) until the 'Libertas bagman' episode, where he was flying around Europe with Ganley's cash, buying up political parties for the Euro elections.

    Still, whoever you choose to trust is up to you.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Options
    #48
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    that would be jans peter bonde though

    he founded Eudemocrats and was claimed to be a leading architect in the forming of libertas.

    He may be an mep but he was also the presentable face of the euroskeptic movements within the european parliament until he left.

    EDIT:

    DAMNIT SCOFFLAW!


  • Options
    #49
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    like the council of ministers and the leaders council (offical name?) ????

    I think you are missing OBs point conchubar.

    There is a huge difference between the Council/Parliament and the Commission.

    The Commission has an individual looking after a particular area of policy. That one person, if elected, would pander to his/her base on that policy.

    The Council and Parliaments are elected and will to a degree pander to their base, however they are groups voting on policy areas and so are all pandering in different directions on the same issue and so have to come to a consensus. No such consensus would occur in an elected Commission.


  • Options
    #50
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    An elected commission would likely bring in the sort of clientism we, unfortunately, experience with our Ministers more than looking after their constituencies. So if the Minister for Transport is elected by Galway West, Galway gets itself a spanking new motorway, needed or not. To the detriment of all other constituencies.

    Now you might think, hey, that's cool, cause if the Commissioner for transport infrastructure (if such existed) came from Ireland, and had to be responsible to that electorate they might give us a nice motorway or two, great. However if they came from Lithuania, you'd have to think they'd do the same, to the detriment of Ireland, fair enough you say, because we'd be at the same thing ourselves, and we'll get our chance. But with 27+ different commissionerships to be filled, every 5 years, it's likely as not that it might take us 30 or 40 years to get our hands on the transport one, which means 30 or 40 years of neglect, as the transport commissioner is trying to please his own electorate in his own country.

    Now given that, the advantages of a biased and elected commissioner soon start to be outweighed by the disadvantages. Therefore it can be seen how an unelected and therefore unbiased Commissioner tasked with addressing the need of the people, wherever they may be, could be taken as a better setup.

    I think our ministerial system stinks of clientism, and I'd hate to see the same thing happen to the EU.

    Edit: Of course, to be painfully obvious, none of this is affected by the Lisbon treaty, one way or another.


  • Options
    #51
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    the_dark_side wrote: »
    Bonde is still a well respected serving MEP.
    Nope. He resigned last year.

    I'm not sure how "well respected" he is, either - by whom? My Danish girlfriend doesn't have much time for him.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Nope. He resigned last year.

    I'm not sure how "well respected" he is, either - by whom? My Danish girlfriend doesn't have much time for him.

    Ive just deleted that post, I totally picked up Scofflaw the wrong way...

    *note to self: re-read before you reply :o


Advertisement