The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

themont85

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But it's still only 1 Irish regular and a great chance for a second. That 2 players out of 26, I'm not saying it's bad as it's pretty stand I'd say for most/all other nations. I'm just sayign the jump from underage to full international is huge so I wouldn't look to much into the fact that Leinster have a lot more players in underage sides then the other provinces. Also at underage level due to the SCT having more competitive schools and a bigger competition there's probaly a bit of bias given towards them.


Copy and paste fail.

Chucky you really are looking at it the wrong way. Of course only a couple may make it through to play for Ireland, that is not bad at all. There is only 30 odd in a Irish squad at any given time. Not everybody can make it. Where are the future players coming from for Ireland? If only 2 or 3 out of 26 make it for Ireland(and a few more provincially) and the make up of the squad is almost half full of Leinster players, then eventually Leinster will have more quality players than the rest.Rugby is becoming more and more honed at youth level. Unfortunately, and this is something I personally lament, the days of a John Hayes taking the game up at 18 are going to be extremelly rare. People not making it at 20/21 at their age grade provencially or internationally will likely never make it.

Size=everything

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But it's still only 1 Irish regular and a great chance for a second. That 2 players out of 26, I'm not saying it's bad as it's pretty stand I'd say for most/all other nations. I'm just sayign the jump from underage to full international is huge so I wouldn't look to much into the fact that Leinster have a lot more players in underage sides then the other provinces. Also at underage level due to the SCT having more competitive schools and a bigger competition there's probaly a bit of bias given towards them.


Copy and paste fail.

In fairness I wasn't the one to bring up the underage players I was referring to the young players who actually start regularly for Leinster and other provinces in the ML i.e Toner,Healy,Sexton,McFadden,Kearney,Fitzgerald,Heaslip,Keatley,Fionn Carr, Sean O'Brien

If I wanted to mention underage players well then theres tons from Leinster (10 out of 15 Irish U20s World cup squad are Leinster) but I'm not because as you said usually only 2-3 players will ever make it to international level from that stage but I wasn't the one to bring up underagers (though if 2-3 make it per squad and the squad is mostly Leinster then most likely most of the players that do make it will be Leinster) another poster mentioned Munster's talent from AIL but I countered none of those players are proven unlike the Leinster players I mentioned. Of the young players I mentoned 3 are currently Lions, 2 are set to make the Irish 22 for the RBS 6nations, one is top try scorer in the Magners League and the other 2 are regulars for Connacht and Leinster respectively. I could also mention how Felix Jones will 100% be starting for Munster by the end of the season but I wont as that isn't proven.

Chucky the tree

themont85 wrote: »

Chucky you really are looking at it the wrong way. Of course only a couple may make it through to play for Ireland, that is not bad at all. There is only 30 odd in a Irish squad at any given time. Not everybody can make it. Where are the future players coming from for Ireland? If only 2 or 3 out of 26 make it for Ireland(and a few more provincially) and the make up of the squad is almost half full of Leinster players, then eventually Leinster will have more quality players than the rest.Rugby is becoming more and more honed at youth level. Unfortunately, and this is something I personally lament, the days of a John Hayes taking the game up at 18 are going to be extremelly rare. People not making it at 20/21 at their age grade provencially or internationally will likely never make it.

But the even the rest of the 7 professionals aren't close to an Irish team. I disagree that people at 20/21 who don't make it an international grade will fail. Look at soccer, it's been proffessional and has always had academies etc but still players who play at under 21's for their countries and below still struggle to make the break to the first team. People are underestimating the growth/development people have from 21-24.

Size=everything wrote: »

In fairness I wasn't the one to bring up the underage players I was referring to the young players who actually start regularly for Leinster and other provinces in the ML i.e Toner,Healy,Sexton,McFadden,Kearney,Fitzgerald,Heaslip,Keatley,Fionn Carr, Sean O'Brien

If I wanted to mention underage players well then theres tons from Leinster (10 out of 15 Irish U20s World cup squad are Leinster) but I'm not because as you said usually only 2-3 players will ever make it to international level from that stage but I wasn't the one to bring up underagers (though if 2-3 make it per squad and the squad is mostly Leinster then most likely most of the players that do make it will be Leinster) another poster mentioned Munster's talent from AIL but I countered none of those players are proven unlike the Leinster players I mentioned. Of the young players I mentoned 3 are currently Lions, 2 are set to make the Irish 22 for the RBS 6nations, one is top try scorer in the Magners League and the other 2 are regulars for Connacht and Leinster respectively. I could also mention how Felix Jones will 100% be starting for Munster by the end of the season but I wont as that isn't proven.

Toner - Would he dislodge DOC or POC? I certainly don't think so. Having an aging MOK to slip in behind is the main reason he gets game time.

Sexton - If Conter's didn't get injured we'd still have the same question marks over him.

McFadden - I don't know if I'd call him a regular after 6 games.

As I said this can easily be put down to a golden patch for Leinster and not due to them being some much better at producing talent. It's not like the Irish team is/was always dominated with Leinster players.

themont85

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But the even the rest of the 7 professionals aren't close to an Irish team. I disagree that people at 20/21 who don't make it an international grade will fail. Look at soccer, it's been proffessional and has always had academies etc but still players who play at under 21's for their countries and below still struggle to make the break to the first team. People are underestimating the growth/development people have from 21-24.
.

Rugby is not soccer, it is far more system orientated. We only have 4 professional provinces. The provinces will drop you from their acadamies/sub acadamies if you don't make Ireland/your province at that age. And it is their acadamies where they look for players not the AIL. I know of several players dropped for not making Ireland ect. That is the way it is going, unfortunately.

Chucky the tree

themont85 wrote: »

Rugby is not soccer, it is far more system orientated. We only have 4 professional provinces. The provinces will drop you from their acadamies/sub acadamies if you don't make Ireland/your province at that age. And it is their acadamies where they look for players not the AIL. I know of several players dropped for not making Ireland ect. That is the way it is going, unfortunately.

While they might get dropped from Leinster you'll find those players starting to make the break through from AIL or going to england. Look at trimble, he made all the Irish under aged schools, then the full Irish team and has just nose dived since. Most of the underage players will go the same way as him expect they won't even get as many caps as he did. Unfortunatly we both have a long wait to find out who's right.

You're right that soccer mightn't be rugby but there isn't one sport in the world where the great underage players transfer up into great professionals and I can't see rugby being the one to somehow break that mold.

Size=everything

Off topic but in fairness to Trimble he has been out injured most of this season and was in the 2008 6 nations squad.

Size=everything

Size=everything wrote: »

Off topic but in fairness to Trimble he has been out injured most of this season and was in the 2008 6 nations squad.

There was actually an article which I think interviewed the current under 20s coach.He was talking about how Irish youths lacked the basic skills that their sh counterparts had.

He selected out Trimble for special treatment saying "he wouldnt mind"
He then went on to say how he had bad hands,had defensive weaknesses and said he had no kicking game to speak of and that because of this the ELV;s had destroyed his game because of the kicking skills required and forced him out of the Ireland setup.

7mountpleasant

One thing that might go to explaining the disparity in the acedemy systems is that if you look at the ages of the people who have made the big breakthrough (earls aside) from the munster system (Fla , DOC, TOL) is that they have been considerably older than there leinster counterparts when they made there breakthrough (Healy, Fitz and Toner) so while looking this from this point in time the standout youngsters at the moment are all wearing blue , but in 4-5 years time the ratio of acedemy players actually getting capped could be much much more even.

Madworld

Just wondering does anybody know what happened to that huge prop Lovic from Belvo last year. Is he still playing

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

Its irrelevant. My point is where are the young players Munster have produced that are good enough to warrant starting for a province other than Cronin, Earls and Holland?

The Munster players playing in AIL are still not good enough to warrant starting regularly for a provincial team unlike Fitzgerald,Heaslip,Sexton,Toner,Healy,Sean O'Brien, McFadden,Kearney,Cave,Keatley,Fionn Carr etc.

If these players were capable then they would be getting game time for Munster or would be signed up by another province.

Jeez, considering Munster had 10 or 12 players in the Grand Slam squad and 9 Lions, who do you think we should drop to bring through players? I'm not sure why you keep missing this, but Munster don't need to bring through as many players...

I'm confident the talented players are biding their time in the AIL like Flannery and TOL did.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Guys like Donncha Ryan or Denis Fogarty could step in to the team now without a huge collapse in Munster's form. It remains to be seen what will become of Buckley, we'll see if Gert Smal has made something of him over the last few weeks.

Really? My impression is that Ryan especially has gone backwards as a player precisely because of his lack of game time. He is quite a step down from POC/DOC now. Though that does add weight to the "settled team" theory I guess.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You keep mentioning Earls as though he's the only player in Munster at the minute.

Look at Munster's second team.

Hurley (Con)
Fogarty (Con)
Buckley (Shannon)
Ryan (Shannon)
Foley/Nagle (Boh's/UCC)
Holland (Con)
O'Donnell/Grace (Boh's/Shannon)
O'Mahony (Con)
Williams (Con)
Manning/Burke (Con/Garryowen)
O'Boyle (Garryowen)
Gleeson (Con)
Earls (Y. Munster)
D. McCarthy (Garryowen)
Hurley (Con)

While I understand and appreciate your point, I don't agree with the sentiment. Yes, Munster have a somewhat decent second team, but they couldn't just pop in and replace the incumbents and even if they did there is a noticeable drop in quality. Moreso, some of them aren't even all that young.

I'm taking a massive Leinster slant on this comparison given my background but here goes.

Hurley - Healy is two years younger and got 3 times as much game time last year before he was first choice and about 10 times more this year.
Fogarty - He's almost 26, that's older then Rory Best.
Buckley - isn't young and there is a decent chance he still won't fulfil anything close to his potential.
Ryan - Great prospect
Foley/Nagle - In fairness, I don't know a lot about them (though a cursory glance tells me Toner had about 6 games under his belt at their age and they have none)
Holland - Fair enough, though SOB is younger and got a hell of a lot more game time this year
O'Donnell/Grace - know nothing about them so will leave it be
O'Mahoney - He was almost born in the 90s, that's disturbing (this is an irrelevant comment)
Williams - Older than POD with precisely zero game time.
Manning/Burke - Manning isn't much of a prospect due to him being ****. Nor was he much of a Munster product. Don't know enough about Burke to comment
O'Boyle - He's 25....
Gleeson - Fair enough (though McFadden is younger and has more game time and is far closer to the Leinster and Irish squads).
Earls - Yup
McCarthy - dunno who this is
Hurly - Older and not as good as Jones (or Kearney or Fitz for that matter). Mind you Jones has yet to prove/disprove anything at a high level.

Munster have a settled team, I get that. It makes it harder to break through, and those that do are excellent players. But I dont get how it doesn't worry you that a lot of Munster players will be retiring or hitting their waning years soon and there is no obvious home grown replacement for them. For nearly everyone you have mentioned there is a Leinster player who is further along in their development and most of the time they are younger as well. Sexton was behing Conters, yet get got gametime. SOB gets gametime. Healy gets gametime. McFadden gets some gametime and is breaking through. Toner gets gametime. Timmy Ryan is leaving Munster cause he isn't getting it.

Carr, Keatley and Jones left Leinster because other young players were in their way.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It is telling that guys like Reddan and Ross can go from being way down the list in Munster to first choice in other teams. I really think people under-estimate the AIL.

I agree that people underestimate the AIL, but these players flourished after a lot of commitment from their clubs abroad. It wasn't as if they were ready made to drop in as first choice elsewhere.

thehighground wrote: »

Sorry, I don't go along with your charade that this isn't a "Leinster is better than Munster" thread. That is all you are trying to prove. It is quite obvious from the title of the thread, which I didn't start.

A more neutral title might have been: "Where is all the Irish rugby talent being nutured'.

Just one other point - it is possible to have all the talent at underage etc., but its the top 2 inches that count. Plenty of time for all of those you mention to fail yet. Think of it - out of the group that won the U-19 World Cup - only ones playing pro rugby are BOD, DOC & Paddy Wallace.

First of all, this isn't about the talent from the U19 WC 10 years ago, its about now. Secondly, its plain to anyone to see that Leinster are dominating the underage set up in Ireland at the moment. The real question is why. A look at the senior teams says it can't really be that Leinster simply produce better players, so the more pertinent question is why, over the last few years, have underage teams and ultimately young professional players, been so Leinster centric. Its potentially merely swings and roundabouts, but I get the impression that it isn't.

thehighground wrote: »

Kearney seems to have hit a wall - hopefully he will come through;
Heaslip is on a high at the moment - think he is the real deal.
Sexton: Jury still out - he has not played at international level yet (Denis Hurley had a great couple of games for Munster then went backwards at the rate of knots).
Healy: Looks to be the real deal.

Sexton is already way way ahead of where Hurley can only hope to dream of being at the moment. He still has a lot to prove at international level, but that comparison is silly. Kearney and Heaslip are Lions. Healy is currently the best loosehead in Ireland.

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

He was mentioned here recently. Everyone mentions that game when they refer to him and he was brilliant in it but since then he has failed to make the Munster under 20s squad and didn't make the Irish Under 20s squad for the World Cup. I think what was most telling was when Nevin Spence got injured for the Irish Under 20s and Barnes his garryowen teammate was called up instead of him. I saw him last season playing and he seems to have fizzled out but at his age theres plenty of time to regain form I hope!!

Barnes plays for UCC, ffs.

McCarthy has been playing and scoring tries for the Garryowen senior team. He's been in great form for one of the best teams in the AIL. The only issue is he's not sure if he wants to go pro.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Jeez, considering Munster had 10 or 12 players in the Grand Slam squad and 9 Lions, who do you think we should drop to bring through players? I'm not sure why you keep missing this, but Munster don't need to bring through as many players...

It is possible to give players game time while not "dropping" the incumbents.

Also, of the 11 Munster players who lined out for Ireland's XXII, the youngest was TOL at 25. 5 of them were over 30 and 2 were 29. Only BOD and Murphy were 30 or over of the others. Most were under 25.

Amazotheamazing

Chucky the tree wrote: »

And most of them don't play at a high level underage for Ireland. I'm not hugely for munster or Ireland, look back at all the underage world cups and only 3 or 4 ever make it to the full irish team on a regular basis. Go through all of the Irish underage teams who've shown some success and most of the players are complete unknowns.

2005 Under 21 World cup squad:
Forwards: John Andress (Harlequins),
Ryan Caldwell (Ulster),
Stephen Ferris (Ulster),
Chris Henry (Ulster),
Ronan Loughney (Connacht),
Kevin McLaughlin (Leinster),
Mark Melbourne (Released by Munster this season),
Joseph Merrigan (Connacht),
Ross Noonan (Playing Division 1 in England),
Stuart Philpott (Ulster),


Backs:
Daniel Riordan (Released by Connacht),
Jonathon Sexton (Leinster),
Gareth Steenson (Playing in Div One in England),
Andrew Trimble (Ulster),
Cillian Willis (Ulster).

The above are still playing pro, afaik. I presume Melbourne and Riordan will move to some clubs.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is possible to give players game time while not "dropping" the incumbents.

Also, of the 11 Munster players who lined out for Ireland's XXII, the youngest was TOL at 25. 5 of them were over 30 and 2 were 29. Only BOD and Murphy were 30 or over of the others. Most were under 25.

It's not really though, is it? For example, much of this year was spent integrating Earls and Warwick into our backs, we couldn't chop and change to bring anyone else in, not really.

In the forwards we gave gametime to Hurley, Fogs, Buckley, D. Ryan, T. Ryan, Dave Ryan, Holland, O'Donnell and Ronan, as well as giving our entire pack to Ireland, there's only so many games to go around.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's not really though, is it? For example, much of this year was spent integrating Earls and Warwick into our backs, we couldn't chop and change to bring anyone else in, not really.

In the forwards we gave gametime to Hurley, Fogs, Buckley, D. Ryan, T. Ryan, Dave Ryan, Holland, O'Donnell and Ronan, as well as giving our entire pack to Ireland, there's only so many games to go around.

But like - you just said it! You're entire pack plays for Ireland! So how come other teams get to blood youngsters more frequently?

In the Heineken Cup final, Leinster played Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Cian Healy and Johnny Sexton. All of those guys are really young.

Settled team's too easy an excuse - Paul O'Connell barely plays in the Magners League, it's Mick 'old, not really good enough' O'Driscoll. Ronan O'Gara doesn't have an alternative, at full back you've got Paul Warwick or Denis 'I'm surprisingly shít for someone whose been a professional as long as I have' Hurley. The wingers are oooooold. Or shít. Howlett's 30, and great as he is, his pace is slowly but surely eroding, while Ian 'I hate Leinster because Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie are rubbish I swear' Dowling is, well, Ian Dowling. Why isn't there some young kid challenging him for his place?

This is the first season I can remember Munster taking the Magners League seriously, and yet, in the seasons prior to that I've no real memory of youngsters being played.

A Munster fan I know is in fact really annoyed that Keith Earls is so far behind Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald in game time and blames the Munster set up for that.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

Secondly, its plain to anyone to see that Leinster are dominating the underage set up in Ireland at the moment. The real question is why. A look at the senior teams says it can't really be that Leinster simply produce better players, so the more pertinent question is why, over the last few years, have underage teams and ultimately young professional players, been so Leinster centric. Its potentially merely swings and roundabouts, but I get the impression that it isn't.

This is where I think you're missing the point.

It's no mystery that Leinster, with a greater population and more rugby schools, will have more players. What is a mystery is why all these underage players peter out. Next year, the entire of Leinster will have four top AIL clubs, Clontarf, Mary's, Belvedere, and Blackrock. Four teams, the same as Limerick....

So, and this has been my point, if there's so many players coming through, why are the Leinster clubs so bad?

My theory is that Munster clubs are not as hung up on underage success and take a long term view, they don't care how good a player is when he's under 20, if he has the potential to be good at senior. Hence you see Munster players coming through at a later age.

It is the clubs that will be the future of Munster rugby. Three of the best prospects in the Academy came through the Munster youths, from clubs away from the main schools, Foley, O'Donnell and Grace.

Like I said, Leinster should have more underage players, it's what happens when they turn senior that should worry any Irish fan.

I'm willing to bet now that even if less players come through from Munster, the ones that do come through will be good enough to keep Munster among the top teams in Europe.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

But like - you just said it! You're entire pack plays for Ireland! So how come other teams get to blood youngsters more frequently?

In the Heineken Cup final, Leinster played Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Cian Healy and Johnny Sexton. All of those guys are really young.

Settled team's too easy an excuse - Paul O'Connell barely plays in the Magners League, it's Mick 'old, not really good enough' O'Driscoll. Ronan O'Gara doesn't have an alternative, at full back you've got Paul Warwick or Denis 'I'm surprisingly shít for someone whose been a professional as long as I have' Hurley. The wingers are oooooold. Or shít. Howlett's 30, and great as he is, his pace is slowly but surely eroding, while Ian 'I hate Leinster because Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie are rubbish I swear' Dowling is, well, Ian Dowling. Why isn't there some young kid challenging him for his place?

If you'd watched ML rugby this year, you'd have realised our Int players were available to play for most of the games, unlike other years. Unfair on MOD btw, he's a top class squad player. I'm not sure why we don't have wingers, or why we produce so many top class locks or hookers, it's just how it goes.

Amazotheamazing

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If you'd watched ML rugby this year, you'd have realised our Int players were available to play for most of the games, unlike other years. Unfair on MOD btw, he's a top class squad player. I'm not sure why we don't have wingers, or why we produce so many top class locks or hookers, it's just how it goes.

I have stayed out but for god sake admit it when you are wrong.

You have no where near as much talent coming through and you are resorting to poaching players.

What top locks and hookers are you bringing through?
None.

Niall Ronan a Leinster poach who is crap and old,Tony Buckley who is 29 and crap and old and Donnacha ryan who is crap and old.
Felix Jones is most likely the only youth player that will break through this year and hes from Leinster,as are the whole backline and packs of the youth setups.

Munster are producing jack **** as are connacht and Ulster.

For every Dennis Hurley you name we have 10 players better in the same position.

Its not dick waving,its fact.

Felix Jones couldnt make the Leinster setup as we have at least 4 better back 3 players in the academy but he will probably start for Munster soon enough,that says it all.

Stop making excuses and make valid arguments.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If you'd watched ML rugby this year, you'd have realised our Int players were available to play for most of the games, unlike other years. Unfair on MOD btw, he's a top class squad player. I'm not sure why we don't have wingers, or why we produce so many top class locks or hookers, it's just how it goes.

Donncha Ryan's like 25? I'm unaware of any other lock.

The only hookers I know of are Cronin at Connacht and the Fogartys who are pretty much all in their mid-20s?

As for MOD, squad player, meh, fcuk that. He's too old to be at Munster. If he had ambition he'd be leading the line for another club because he's good enough to start for most non-amazing top division teams.

Munster have no young out-halves, no wingers, one centre and no full backs. Nor are there props, second rows or flankers. That's ludicrous!

Munster should produce half the talent Leinster or Ulster do and they're not doing that. That's a coaching problem...

Amazotheamazing

Salvatore Mammoth Wig wrote: »

What top locks and hookers are you bringing through?

Apart from POC, DOC, MOD in the Irish squad and Ryan (capped this year), we have Foley and Nagle coming through, both seriously talented players.

At hooker, we have Flannery, Fogs, Varley (back from Wasps), Slattery, Essex, Sherry, and Cronin (the best of them) in Connacht. A munster oldboy, John Fogarty is playing with Leinster.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Donncha Ryan's like 25? I'm unaware of any other lock.

The only hookers I know of are Cronin at Connacht and the Fogartys who are pretty much all in their mid-20s?

As for MOD, squad player, meh, fcuk that. He's too old to be at Munster. If he had ambition he'd be leading the line for another club because he's good enough to start for most non-amazing top division teams.

Munster have no young out-halves, no wingers, one centre and no full backs. Nor are there props, second rows or flankers. That's ludicrous!

Munster should produce half the talent Leinster or Ulster do and they're not doing that. That's a coaching problem...

I'll give you the back three, but up front we're well stocked up.

It's nothing to me if you don't watch enough AIL to rate players like Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland, O'Donnell or Grace, but they are all serious prospects.

Anyhow, why are the leinster clubs so bad if there's all this talent washing around Leinster?

Amazotheamazing

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'll give you the back three, but up front we're well stocked up.

It's nothing to me if you don't watch enough AIL to rate players like Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland, O'Donnell or Grace, but they are all serious prospects.

Anyhow, why are the leinster clubs so bad if there's all this talent washing around Leinster?

Because we identify them and actaully bring them through the academy,instead of calling them AIL prospects and letting them rot in the AIL.The best Munster prospects play in the AIL the best Leinster ones dont,hence the division in standards.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Apart from POC, DOC, MOD in the Irish squad and Ryan (capped this year), we have Foley and Nagle coming through, both seriously talented players.

Well then we have O'Kelly,Cullen,Toner and Casey.At least 2 of whom should be in the Irish squad.

Amazotheamazing

Salvatore Mammoth Wig wrote: »

Because we identify them and actaully bring them through the academy,instead of calling them AIL prospects and letting them rot in the AIL.The best Munster prospects play in the AIL the best Leinster ones dont,hence the division in standards.

It's more than just that though, the small number of players Leinster cream off the top shouldn't lead to the Leinster clubs being so poor, what with the massive pool of players and all....

Like I've been saying, Munster don't see it as letting players rot in the AIL, they are learning their trade. You mightn't like it, but it's proven extremely good for developing players.

Size=everything

I think the difference is whilst amazo is naming underage players who may or may not make it (some of whom werent even deemed good enough to make the Irish under 20s squad!) I and others have named well established young players from Leinster. Players who have already shown they are good enough to stay professional. Amazo says McCarthy wasn't picked for the Irish under 20s because 'he isnt sure whether he wants to go pro or not' well I can catergorically say for a fact that isnt true he went to the training sessions and was ****e tbh. Barnes another player mentioned by amazo only got called up to the Irish under 20s when Spence got injured ffs! And Nagle was nowhere near the squad! Yet these are the players being mentioned when amazo talks of Munsters best prospects. Now I think we can all see theres a difference between players such as Healy,Toner,Sexton,Heaslip,O'Brien,Kearney,Fitzgerald,Heaslip,McFadden,Keatley,Fionn Carr, Felix Jones etc. and the players mentioned by amazo who cant even make the Irish youth squads.

Like honestly you are mentioning players who can't make the Irish under 20s squad against : the best loosehead in Ireland right now, arguably the most in form outhalf, 3 lions players, the best prospect at 6 in the country, the top try scorer in the Magners League etc.

And you tell me you can't see the difference in class? You tell me that Munster are on a similar pegging to Leinster in regards to development? Come off it. The fact that players such as Buckley (28), Ryan (26) are mentioned as prospects says a lot.

Honestly how anyone can argue that Munster are anywhere near Leinster in youth production is beyond me. Its a problem and some posters here are letting their provincial bias get in the way

danthefan

Blackrock and Clontarf were hardly bad this season, to be fair. I know the club game has been dominated by Munster clubs anyway.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'll give you the back three, but up front we're well stocked up.

Well currently Leinster have the best loosehead in the country at 21, a current Lion test starter, the biggest prospect backrow player in Sean O'Brien and the biggest prospect at second row in Toner. All these players have ML, Heinken Cup and International experience and don't ply their trade in the AIL by the way.

Anyhow, why are the leinster clubs so bad if there's all this talent washing around Leinster?

Because Leinster brings its talent through the academy. I know lads in the academy that find it hard to play AIL on top of all the training sessions they have to do. The fact is Leinster's academy concentrates on it's players far more than any other province and I have feeling thats why we have seen such great talents emerge as of late.

Size=everything

danthefan wrote: »

Blackrock and Clontarf were hardly bad this season, to be fair. I know the club game has been dominated by Munster clubs anyway.

Whats funny is St.Marys and Clontarf won the same amount of games as their Munster counterparts the league actually came down to point difference. Meanwhile Blackrock won 10 games to the winners 11 games. Hardly the massive gulf that is being made out by some here in the AIL

And thats ignoring the fact that most of the club's best young players can't play regularly due to regular trainings and matches for Leinster Academy.

And theres a lot more players Leinster clubs have lost due to the players being deemed good enough to play provincial rugby than in Munster. Munster clubs lost Keith Earls in the last few years meanwhile Leinster clubs lost : Healy,Toner,McFadden,Sexton,Sean O'Brien,Keatley,Fionn Carr,Kearney,Fitzgerald,Heaslip and thats excluding the fact that whilst Munster A play people like MOD, Nick Williams, Horgan, Puccirieallo etc. Leinster A mainly play their youth so you can add Madigan,McKinley,Paul O'Donaghue,Felix Jones, Royce Burke Flynn,Jamie Hagan, Harris Wright, Keating, Ryan, McGrath etc. to that list. Now honestly tell me Munster clubs have lost that kind of class.

danthefan

Size=everything wrote: »

Whats funny is St.Marys and Clontarf won the same amount of games as their Munster counterparts the league actually came down to point difference. Meanwhile Blackrock won 10 games to the winners 11 games. Hardly the massive gulf that is being made out by some here in the AIL

And thats ignoring the fact that most of the club's best young players can't play regularly due to regular trainings and matches for Leinster Academy.

This season that's true but if you look at the past winners:

1991 Cork Constitution
1992 Garryowen
1993 Young Munster
1994 Garryowen
1995 Shannon
1996 Shannon
1997 Shannon
1998 Shannon
1999 Cork Constitution
2000 St Mary's College
2001 Dungannon
2002 Shannon
2003 Ballymena
2004 Shannon[a]
2005 Shannon
2006 Shannon
2007 Garryowen
2008 Cork Constitution
2009 Shannon[c]




I know a lot of that isn't wholely relevant to this discussion because it's to do with academy structures (which have developed over time since professionalism) but there's only 1 Leinster winner in there.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's more than just that though, the small number of players Leinster cream off the top shouldn't lead to the Leinster clubs being so poor, what with the massive pool of players and all....

Just to answer this:

Youth players are rarely going to win titles in any sport. Whether Arsenal in football or UCD in rugby. Experience matters a lot more in rugby than most sports. A lot of big Munster clubs have good teams.

I'd also be curious about the numbers in the clubs themselves.

ANd didn't Clontarf do really well this season, with Leinster's O'Donohue being outstanding?

Like I've been saying, Munster don't see it as letting players rot in the AIL, they are learning their trade. You mightn't like it, but it's proven extremely good for developing players.

The AIL's a solid-ish league, but my take on the issue would be this - Leinster and Ulster both have young players who are capable of getting into the team, and not just into empty positions.

Shane Horgan and Girvan Dempsey are Ireland internationals, Luke Fitzgerald and Rob Kearney are 21/22. That's not a case of a team with space.

You've mentioned how Munster have a more 'settled' team, but Munster have a backline this and last season for the first time I'm aware of. The only Munster boys playing in the Munster backline (not the halfbacks) are Murphy, Hurley, Earls and... Lifemi O'Mafi? Rua MacTipoki? That's where there's an issue.

It may come as a surprise to some, but most non-Munster fans don't want to see you lot fcuked when everyone retires in 2011. Is Donncha Ryan really good enough to replace DOC and POC right now? Is there someone to replace Horan? Will Cronin come back for Flannery? Who replaces Wallace and Quinlan? John Hayes? Don't tell me Buckley can replace Hayes, Hayes is a class above him. Those are problem areas, and unless Munster are just going to sign in foreign talent, what'll they do?

Stev_o

Hopefully though this Anglo-Celtic club competition will help to give the quaility players in Div 1 high exposure to more demanding games.

RuggieBear

Size=everything,

Tone it down a bit please. if you mention provincial bias one more time i will ban you for hypocrisy.

It's all swings and roundabouts. IMO, Munster has stronger clubs thus their players take a little longer to come through as the proper training, conditioning and effort occurs a little later than in the leinster/Ulster systems where the strength is in practically professionally set up at school level.

So of course leinster players are going to shine quicker but look at the leinster A team which is full of youngsters and fringe players...it was soundly beaten by Munster A this season.

Leinster have a good few players coming through at the moment but then previous years have seen munster and/or ulster dominate at the underage level.

Another point is that Munster (and leinster tbh) probably have their "golden generation" at the moment...where there have never been so many good/great players all at the same time. That will always make it more difficult to break thru.

Stev_o

RuggieBear wrote: »

Size=everything,

Tone it down a bit please. if you mention provincial bias one more time i will ban you for hypocrisy.

It's all swings and roundabouts. IMO, Munster has stronger clubs thus their players take a little longer to come through as the proper training, conditioning and effort occurs a little later than in the leinster/Ulster systems where the strength is in practically professionally set up at school level.

So of course leinster players are going to shine quicker but look at the leinster A team which is full of youngsters and fringe players...it was soundly beaten by Munster A this season.

Leinster have a good few players coming through at the moment but then previous years have seen munster and/or ulster dominate at the underage level.

Another point is that Munster (and leinster tbh) probably have their "golden generation" at the moment...where there have never been so many good/great players all at the same time. That will always make it more difficult to break thru.

I say the problem for Munster (which has been said a few times but not fully) is that while they dominate the AIL they aren't taking advantage of this dominance and progressing these players through the ranks. Now of course let's not get carried away with ourselves we all know that very few people will end up playing for their province on a regular basis and only a select few make it through each year. Leinster seem to have the conveyor belt going while Munsters clearly just have theirs in a circle with no real drop off point.

Size=everything

RuggieBear wrote: »

Size=everything,

Tone it down a bit please. if you mention provincial bias one more time i will ban you for hypocrisy.

It's all swings and roundabouts. IMO, Munster has stronger clubs thus their players take a little longer to come through as the proper training, conditioning and effort occurs a little later than in the leinster/Ulster systems where the strength is in practically professionally set up at school level.

So of course leinster players are going to shine quicker but look at the leinster A team which is full of youngsters and fringe players...it was soundly beaten by Munster A this season.

Leinster have a good few players coming through at the moment but then previous years have seen munster and/or ulster dominate at the underage level.

Another point is that Munster (and leinster tbh) probably have their "golden generation" at the moment...where there have never been so many good/great players all at the same time. That will always make it more difficult to break thru.

I am only mentioning provincial bias because I am astounded that posters are actually trying to counter players such as Kearney,Fitzgerald and Heaslip with young lads who didnt even make the Irishunder 20s!!! But I will keep my opinions to myself fro now on. However if the players are taking longer to come through due to the club game then surely thats a problem? Its shortening their careers and taking them longer to develop. If Earls was at Leinster I'd hazard a quess he'd be along the lines of Fitzgerald in terms of developnment. And yes Munster A beat Leinster A but Munster A start players such as MOD, Nick Williams, Puc, Lewis etc. all old experienced players to Leinsters youngsters

danthefan

RuggieBear wrote: »

Another point is that Munster (and leinster tbh) probably have their "golden generation" at the moment...where there have never been so many good/great players all at the same time. That will always make it more difficult to break thru.

I think on that point, Munster have had a 'golden generation' much moreso than Leinster. The Munster pack has been virtually the same for about 5 or 6 years now (Foley out, Leamy in), along with ROG, which is what all their success has been built on. Leinster have had huge changes throughout the team, pack and backs alike.

I think the loss of Hayes, Quinlan, Wallace, ROG will have a much bigger effect on Munster than the loss of say Hickie, Jackman, Contepomi, MOK will have on Leinster.

Size=everything

danthefan wrote: »

I think on that point, Munster do much moreso than Leinster. The Munster pack has been virtually the same for about 5 or 6 years now (Foley out, Leamy in), which is what all their success has been built on. Leinster have had huge changes throughout the team, pack and backs alike.

In fairness though two of the best players in the world were at Leinster last season and Leinster still allowed gametime for Sean O'Brien and McFadden. Fitzgerald and Kearney got gametime ahead of Irish internationals. Toner even started games ahead of MOK (even when MOK was fit and didnt have a big game coming up) etc.

Leinster trusts its youngsters, Munster don't. Even Ulster put a lot of trust in their youngsters last season to their credit.


anyways im off to watch the lions beat SA!

danthefan

Size=everything wrote: »

In fairness though two of the best players in the world were at Leinster last season and Leinster still allowed gametime for Sean O'Brien and McFadden. Fitzgerald and Kearney got gametime ahead of Irish internationals. Toner even started games ahead of MOK (even when MOK was fit and didnt have a big game coming up) etc.

Leinster trusts its youngsters, Munster don't. Even Ulster put a lot of trust in their youngsters last season to their credit.

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, Hickie retired and Fitz stepped up. Kearney forced his way in. Sexton is stepping up for Contepomi. O'Brien will have a massive career, as will Healy. We don't have depth in all positions obviously (2nd row and hooker are bad especially) but BOD is the only 'irreplaceable' player in the Leinster team now.

Stev_o

danthefan wrote: »

I think on that point, Munster have had a 'golden generation' much moreso than Leinster. The Munster pack has been virtually the same for about 5 or 6 years now (Foley out, Leamy in), along with ROG, which is what all their success has been built on. Leinster have had huge changes throughout the team, pack and backs alike.

I think the loss of Hayes, Quinlan, Wallace, ROG will have a much bigger effect on Munster than the loss of say Hickie, Jackman, Contepomi, MOK will have on Leinster.

True Munter pretty much built their team on those players and sadly they were all around the same age meaning that in a few years time they ll be past it or gone. Leinster are lucky in the sense that their squad has had varied age groups in it and they'v introduced alot of very young players over the past 3 years, though they ll feel the effects of loosing Cullen, BOD, D'Arcy and co in the years to come.

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

I am only mentioning provincial bias because I am astounded that posters are actually trying to counter players such as Kearney,Fitzgerald and Heaslip with young lads who didnt even make the Irishunder 20s!!!

You don't seem to grasp the fact that playing for the Irish u-20's means nothing or next to nothing in determining how a player will turn out. Munster have more players in the Ireland squads, more Lions, more top AIL clubs, by far the best record in the AIL since it started, and for nearly all that time, Leinster have had loads of players playing u-21 and latterly, u-20, for Ireland.

Like I keep saying, judge the players on how they do week-in, week-out in a league packed with experienced players. For all the players you're talking about now, I could have listed Des Dillon, Brendan Burke, Gary Browne, James Norton etc a few years back. Most of the u-20's will not go on to have top class careers as pro's, a good number won't even have top class careers in the AIL, and that's not to mention guys like Gibney, McKenna and Scally who had to retire due to injury. If underage success meant anything, Ulster would be the best team in Europe.

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

I think on that point, Munster have had a 'golden generation' much moreso than Leinster. The Munster pack has been virtually the same for about 5 or 6 years now (Foley out, Leamy in), along with ROG, which is what all their success has been built on. Leinster have had huge changes throughout the team, pack and backs alike.

I think the loss of Hayes, Quinlan, Wallace, ROG will have a much bigger effect on Munster than the loss of say Hickie, Jackman, Contepomi, MOK will have on Leinster.

Clohessy, Keith Wood, Frankie Sheahan, Mick Galwey, Langford, Jim Williams, Eddie Halvey, David Corkery. Every time one of them left we were told Munster were done for, we'd no talent to bring through etc. This prediction has been running around since the AIL started, it hasn't come through yet.

GymJim

Size=everything wrote: »

So what if they're mostly backs and anyway Toner,Healy, Sean O'Brien and Heaslip are all forwards so thats 4 of the potential eight forwards coming from Leinster. It used to be Leinster dominated backs and Munster dominated forwards but the way things are going its going to be simply Leinster dominated. Staunton never played as regularly as Fitzgerald, Kearney, Healy, Sexton, Keatley, Fionn Carr, Heaslip, Sean O'Brien etc. and proved his worth at provincial level week in week out like the players above did. I'm not saying the Leinster young players I've listed have made it (Though I think its very safe to say Kearney,Heaslip,Fitzgerald,Healy,O'Brien and Sexton have) merely that the prospects to do so are currently all Leinster bar a few Ulster men and Earls.

Staunton was Munster's first choice full back for 2 years. He played in a HEC final and played with Ireland. To say he never played as regularly as any of the above (possibly besides Heaslip at this stage) is just plain wrong. Fitz has had one season first choice and the rest have been ML players besides Healy who has had a good few HEC games this year.

Staunton looked every bit as much of a prospect as Sexton at the same age and had a few good games in HEC. Then he just didn't seem to follow through on his potential. Yes these are all good prospects but I wouldn't jump the gun and say they'll definitely be Irish regulars for years to come (besides Heaslip, Kearney and Fitz).

We all agree Leinster have many good prospects coming through but to say they will all follow through on this long-term is not a certainty. Lads like Norton and Brown in the past have never made it above ML level and have fallen off the radar despite being underage stars and having plenty of ability.

llcoolj14

Size=everything wrote: »

He was mentioned here recently. Everyone mentions that game when they refer to him and he was brilliant in it but since then he has failed to make the Munster under 20s squad and didn't make the Irish Under 20s squad for the World Cup. I think what was most telling was when Nevin Spence got injured for the Irish Under 20s and Barnes his garryowen teammate was called up instead of him. I saw him last season playing and he seems to have fizzled out but at his age theres plenty of time to regain form I hope!!

Id suggest you check you sources...he decided to take a year out last year and instead once he got back fit,focussed on playing for Garryowen in the AIL, scoring a number of tries and bascially as good as anyone his age in the AIL...recently played for an Irish u-20 development side(essentially everyone was u-19) V France (this is the squad that has been earmarked as out u-20 team next year).

FridaysWell

Leinster have an excellent youth system. I know, I was almost part of it. Injury and my name let me down anywho they really take the rugby and coaching seriously. The Leinster branch have an excellent schools system in place, with most if not all of the players mentioned above coming from schools. The schools system is very good, produces very high standard of player, BUT Leinster don't concentrate at all on a huge untapped pool. The clubs youth teams. There are a huge amount of really good players that are just waiting to come through the system but they are being let down by Leinster mis-managing and not taking their tournaments seriously. Leinster need to start developing the Underage club youth system alot more. They have kind of started but more work is needed in my humble opinion.

Tim Robbins

FridaysWell wrote: »

BUT Leinster don't concentrate at all on a huge untapped pool. The clubs youth teams. There are a huge amount of really good players that are just waiting to come through the system but they are being let down by Leinster mis-managing and not taking their tournaments seriously. Leinster need to start developing the Underage club youth system alot more. They have kind of started but more work is needed in my humble opinion.

Yes more work needed in youth system. There's a lot of numbers of refs in Leinster as well and it can be more difficult to get noticed it you are not from a well known club. They should use metrics like official fitness tests and multiple choice exams for all refs.

OldJay

Quite the charge there and in my experience, entirely baseless.

Tim Robbins

Justind wrote: »

Quite the charge there and in my experience, entirely baseless.

Go on then. Elaborate?

I know a number of refs from junior clubs who would agree with me. The branch could use more objective processes such as they do in other organisations e.g. New Zealand. But they don't.

OldJay

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Go on then. Elaborate?

You brought up this claim in the first place so I would say that should involve backing it up as well.

Tim Robbins

Justind wrote: »

You brought up this claim in the first place so I would say that should involve backing it up as well.

Justin mate, it's a fact they don't use fitness tests and written mutliple choice exams. They do have occasional fitness tests at the higher levels (AIL and up) but they don't use below that for which there are about another 5 levels.

If they brought in some objective process you could then know your fitness and law knowledge were at specific levels and that your being objectively scored against your peers.

buck65

Munster's academy and upcoming players didn't look too shabby on Friday did they?

Riskymove

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Justin mate, for the third time, it's a fact they don't use fitness tests and written mutliple choice exams. They do have occasional fitness tests at the higher levels (AIL and up) but they don't use below that for which there are about another 5 levels.

I know a number of refs who aren't happy and I also have seen a number of refs jump ahead of other refs they are no better than because they have connections or because they are with a club which has a number of people on the right committees.

If they brought in some objective process you could then know your fitness and law knowledge were at specific levels and that your being objectively scored against your peers.

worrying stuff, becoming a ref is something I have toyed with recently and as I live in leinster, the leinster branch is the obvious choice

this sort of insight is offputting to say the least, especially as I am not currently attached to a club