Pro-Lisbon Treaty group launched

Run_to_da_hills

I started this topic in AH but it was suggested that this was the correct forum for it.

Reading the RTE news it looks like we will be bombarded with Pro Lisbon propaganda for the next 5 months leading up to Lisbon 2.

Now with Ganley completly out of the political picture it looks like it is all going to be one sided from now on.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0621/eulisbon.html

Euro_Kraut

In what sense is the EU 'backing' this? Please provide a link to support your claim.

nesf

Thread title edited to something more accurate.

Run_to_da_hills

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

In what sense is the EU 'backing' this? Please provide a link to support your claim.

We will know by the quality and quantity of the bill board posters.

Dinner

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We will know by the quality and quantity of the bill board posters.

Ah, so you don't actually have anything to back up a sensationalist thread title. Why am I not surprised.

Also, taken from his AH thread.

Anyone that is seen resisting the Pro Lisbon lobby group could possibly be treated as dissidents and be harassed by the authorities.

It might even become illegal to speak out against the Lisbon treaty.

...

Euro_Kraut

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We will know by the quality and quantity of the bill board posters.

Haven't seen many out so far - so you don't know. Didn't stop you posting as 'fact' it in two forums.

Anyways thread title is amended now. Personally I an glad to see a Yes campaign led by non-politicians. The issue supersedes all party politics.

MikeC101

Anyone that is seen resisting the Pro Lisbon lobby group could possibly be treated as dissidents and be harassed by the authorities.

It might even become illegal to speak out against the Lisbon treaty.

Anyone seen as opposing the Anti Lisbon lobby group might possibly be abducted and tortured by mutated Libertas controlled chimps, maybe.

It could maybe even become illegal to wear pants that aren't the same colour as the paper the treaty is printed on, perhaps.

It's about as valid an argument really.

Seriously, the level of hysteria in that post is just amazing.

Iwasfrozen

It's nice to see another pro lisbon group, things are looking good for the referendum.

brianthebard

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Haven't seen many out so far - so you don't know. Didn't stop you posting as 'fact' it in two forums.

Anyways thread title is amended now. Personally I an glad to see a Yes campaign led by non-politicians. The issue supersedes all party politics.

Is Pat Cox not a politician?

I guess we shouldn't be surprised that such a group has been set up, I wonder who will take up the slack left by Libertas on the No side? I didn't like the organisation, but there is a need for some opposition.

Iwasfrozen

I guess we shouldn't be surprised that such a group has been set up, I wonder who will take up the slack left by Libertas on the No side? I didn't like the organisation, but there is a need for some opposition.

Hopefully no-one we don''t need any real opposition to the treaty.
It will be nice to see an RTE debate with members of Choir and the People before Profit Alliance sitting together on the No side.
Maybe then people will see just how looney the No side is.

PopeBuckfastXVI

brianthebard wrote: »

Is Pat Cox not a politician?

I guess we shouldn't be surprised that such a group has been set up, I wonder who will take up the slack left by Libertas on the No side? I didn't like the organisation, but there is a need for some opposition.

Coir have more than enough lies to go round...

Euro_Kraut

brianthebard wrote: »

Is Pat Cox not a politician?

True, he used to be. Former President of the European Parliament. I would have preferred a complete outsider from the political system to head it up.

Having said that he will know the treaty inside out.

nesf

brianthebard wrote: »

I guess we shouldn't be surprised that such a group has been set up, I wonder who will take up the slack left by Libertas on the No side? I didn't like the organisation, but there is a need for some opposition.

I'd welcome any opposition who fight the campaign on the facts not on fearmongering lies. I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen though.

brianthebard

nesf wrote: »

I'd welcome any opposition who fight the campaign on the facts not on fearmongering lies. I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen though.

I would hope the Yes campaign sticks to the same standards.

nesf

brianthebard wrote: »

I would hope the Yes campaign sticks to the same standards.

Indeed. However, as with the last referendum, many Yes minded posters on here will point out such lies by the Yes campaign if they happen.

P. Breathnach

brianthebard wrote: »

... I wonder who will take up the slack left by Libertas on the No side? I didn't like the organisation, but there is a need for some opposition.

No, there is no unqualified need for opposition. Thee is a need for critical scrutiny of what is proposed and if what is proposed has significant flaws, then there is need for opposition.

I am convinced that most of those who opposed Lisbon 1, and who will probably oppose Lisbon 2, do so because they are Eorosceptic (I'm giving some the benefit of the doubt; describing them as Eurosceptic is kinder than calling them wreckers). Now, it's okay to be Eurosceptic, just as it is okay for me to disagree with that position. What I particularly dislike is that they won't actually say what their position is. The standard line is "I am pro-Europe, but ..."

brianthebard

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No, there is no unqualified need for opposition. Thee is a need for critical scrutiny of what is proposed and if what is proposed has significant flaws, then there is need for opposition.

I am convinced that most of those who opposed Lisbon 1, and who will probably oppose Lisbon 2, do so because they are Eorosceptic (I'm giving some the benefit of the doubt; describing them as Eurosceptic is kinder than calling them wreckers). Now, it's okay to be Eurosceptic, just as it is okay for me to disagree with that position. What I particularly dislike is that they won't actually say what their position is. The standard line is "I am pro-Europe, but ..."

If there's no need for opposition why do you need a pro-lisbon lobby?

P. Breathnach

brianthebard wrote: »

If there's no need for opposition why do you need a pro-lisbon lobby?

Because of the unnecessary opposition provided mainly by Eurosceptics, opportunists, wreckers, and religious bigots, along with opposition provided by a few honest people who I think have made a bad judgement.

tonycascarino

brianthebard wrote: »

If there's no need for opposition why do you need a pro-lisbon lobby?

Now to the best of my knowledge isn't Dave Evans (The Edge) a tax exile and Robbie Keane employed by a foreign plc to play association football in another country. None of them pay tax here or contribute to society here except for the sales of their products and the taxes garnered from sale of same items. And we used to criticise Declan Ganley? You couldn't make it up. Bad move by the Pro-Lisbon side if you ask me.

netron

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Because of the unnecessary opposition provided mainly by Eurosceptics, opportunists, wreckers, and religious bigots, along with opposition provided by a few honest people who I think have made a bad judgement.

bad judgement?

I want a democratic and fully accountable European Union - Lisbon does not provide that. I voted No.

And I will vote No again because of that.

President of the European Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Council

Unelected.


President of the European Commission
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Commission

Unelected

The European Commission
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

The executive branch of the European Union.

Unelected.


European Foreign Minister
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Representative_of_the_Union_for_Foreign_Affairs_and_Security_Policy

Unelected



Thats enough powerful people who are "unelected" for my liking.
I will be voting No again until these people finally get the message.

P. Breathnach

netron wrote: »

bad judgement?

I want a democratic and fully accountable European Union - Lisbon does not provide that. I voted No.

Thats enough powerful people who are "unelected" for my liking. I will be voting No again until these people finally get the message.

We don't elect our Taoiseach or our Ministers (or our dog wardens).

I think yours is a bad judgement.

Iwasfrozen

All of the people you mentioned appointed by europes elected politicians, if people didn't trust their politicians they wouldn't have elected them in the first place.
Would you rather we held pan-european elections ? That would require a constitution, something I believe the Irish rejected in 2004.

netron

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We don't elect our Taoiseach or our Ministers (or our dog wardens).

I think yours is a bad judgement.

Dont be such an eejit. I know how it works.
the Taoiseach is a TD who is elected. He can lose his seat in an election.


Who voted for Peter Mandelson to be EU Trade Comissioner? Could Mr Mandelson lose his role because of a public vote? No , of course not.

netron

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

All of the people you mentioned appointed by europes elected politicians, if people didn't trust their politicians they wouldn't have elected them in the first place.
Would you rather we held pan-european elections ? That would require a constitution, something I believe the Irish rejected in 2004.

Yes i would have pan european elections.

And the Irish did not reject the consitution. That failed in France and Holland and the vote was postponed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_Constitution_Ratification_Map.svg


We rejected Lisbon.

Mario007

netron wrote: »

Dont be such an eejit. I know how it works.
the Taoiseach is a TD who is elected. He can lose his seat in an election.


Who voted for Peter Mandelson to be EU Trade Comissioner? Could Mr Mandelson lose his role because of a public vote? No , of course not.

first of all stop being abusive, there are tons of swear words i could throw on you for your opinions but i'm trying my best not to do so, so please do the same.

taoiseach is a TD but you dont elect him as the taoiseach! would you rather that we get an eu commissioner out the MEP we sent to brussels?

in other eu countries, for example, the prime minister doesnt have to be an MP, to be honest it's better that way, and if he is an MP then he looses his MP seat so he can concentrate solemmly on the issues he faces in the office. the same goes for the ministers...you cant just force the irish way of life onto the rest of the europe...just cos you like it...

Mario007

netron wrote: »

Yes i would have pan european elections.

And the Irish did not reject the consitution. That failed in France and Holland and the vote was postponed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_Constitution_Ratification_Map.svg


We rejected Lisbon.

i love your wikipedia links...they're very legitimate and show a lot of credibility for a website that can be altered by anybody...

oh so you want one party to win the majority in the eu(like libertas wanted) cos then that wouldnt be a dicatorship, right?

RandomName2

Mario007 wrote: »

i love your wikipedia links...they're very legitimate and show a lot of credibility for a website that can be altered by anybody...

oh so you want one party to win the majority in the eu(like libertas wanted) cos then that wouldnt be a dicatorship, right?

Is the EPP a dictatorship?

netron

Mario007 wrote: »

first of all stop being abusive, there are tons of swear words i could throw on you for your opinions but i'm trying my best not to do so, so please do the same.

taoiseach is a TD but you dont elect him as the taoiseach! would you rather that we get an eu commissioner out the MEP we sent to brussels?

in other eu countries, for example, the prime minister doesnt have to be an MP, to be honest it's better that way, and if he is an MP then he looses his MP seat so he can concentrate solemmly on the issues he faces in the office. the same goes for the ministers...you cant just force the irish way of life onto the rest of the europe...just cos you like it...

jesus.. didnt mean to be offensive - "eejit" down my way in Cork is a term of mild banter amongst friends.

apologies if it offended you. didnt mean that.

regarding the leader of a country - well in Britain , the PM doesnt have to be an MP - that is true. The majority party that is elected can select a member to be PM.

But politically, it is impossible for a non-MP to be elected as PM. Precisely because the members voting for the PM have all been elected themselves and are accountable to the electorate.

And the electorate would not stand for an unelected PM - the party that did that would probably lose the next election.

The key point here is that in democracies you have a political class that is fearful of the electorate - and acts accordingly.

And rightly so. That is entirely the correct way to act.

What the EU introduces is a political class that is INDIFFERENT to the whims of the electorate - because it is appointed by political class peers rather than by the electorate - and is thus, by definition undemocratic.

And that is what i object to.

netron

Mario007 wrote: »

i love your wikipedia links...they're very legitimate and show a lot of credibility for a website that can be altered by anybody...

oh so you want one party to win the majority in the eu(like libertas wanted) cos then that wouldnt be a dicatorship, right?

if i started using non-wikipedia links , i'd get called out for "bias" in my linkage.

which is true - it is generally recognised by all sides that Wikipedia tries to be politically neutral.

i tend to link to wikipedia, because then the links dont get argued over. its neutral territory. and i'm just saying "make your own mind up"...

netron

Mario007 wrote: »

oh so you want one party to win the majority in the eu(like libertas wanted) cos then that wouldnt be a dicatorship, right?

i dont understand how electing EU "Senators" could be linked to a party dictatorship.

we'd probably do what they do in America - vote for one party in the Senate elections , and the other party in the Parliament (House of Rep. ) elections.

Keeps the checks and balances going.

And then there's a third election in the U.S. - the President.

We should vote on that too.. ( EU President)

Mario007

RandomName2 wrote: »

Is the EPP a dictatorship?

EPP is not a majority;)

netron wrote: »

jesus.. didnt mean to be offensive - "eejit" down my way in Cork is a term of mild banter amongst friends.

apologies if it offended you. didnt mean that.

regarding the leader of a country - well in Britain , the PM doesnt have to be an MP - that is true. The majority party that is elected can select a member to be PM.

But politically, it is impossible for a non-MP to be elected as PM. Precisely because the members voting for the PM have all been elected themselves and are accountable to the electorate.

And the electorate would not stand for an unelected PM - the party that did that would probably lose the next election.

The key point here is that in democracies you have a political class that is fearful of the electorate - and acts accordingly.

And rightly so. That is entirely the correct way to act.

What the EU introduces is a political class that is INDIFFERENT to the whims of the electorate - because it is appointed by political class peers rather than by the electorate - and is thus, by definition undemocratic.

And that is what i object to.

ha weird...i live in cork as well, and it means something totally different down here

to your point in the czech republic for example they have a government full of experts in their fields and its working out amazingly great so far. the parliament is still the institution that has to pass all the laws and can make new ones and it answers to the public...so the elected peolpe actually make the decissions still....something like the eu to be honest, after the lisbon...right now the ep cant really do much to the commission