Pro-Lisbon Treaty group launched

Scofflaw

conchubhar1 wrote: »

possibly so

or people who want local government - but as the eu is here and for the forseeable future you might aswel do as much as possible to make it as good as possible

Fair enough, but that depends on what one means by 'wanting local government'. Both a rational subsidiarist and a romantic nationalist 'want local government', but in different ways.

The former has a rational preference that decisions should be taken at the lowest possible level at which they are effective. The latter has an irrational preference for decisions being taken solely within the nation-state.

For the former (amongst whom I would count myself, up to a point), Lisbon is definitely a step in the right direction, since it gives more practical effect to the idea of subsidiarity. For the latter, any treaty that increases the EU's competences, by even a whisker, has to be unacceptable.

Take the example of the EU Directive on eel catches. To the romantic nationalist, it's simply wrong that there should be a blanket law covering Europe - the practical effect is irrelevant. To the subsidiarist, it's OK - the lowest level at which such a law can be effective is the European level - otherwise the member state which doesn't restrict catches benefits from the actions of those that do, while potentially undoing all the good that the restricted catches do.

cordially,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1

rationality changes...
you find it irrational other do not

local government as in the best work for the people is done at the local level, then cedes up to national level

the eu should be there - but not a political piece in any way

so people like that would be or could be pro lisbon and anti eu (as is - a political unit, possibly growing more so altho not under lisbon)

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conchubhar1 wrote: »

rationality changes...
you find it irrational other do not

local government as in the best work for the people is done at the local level, then cedes up to national level

the eu should be there - but not a political piece in any way

so people like that would be or could be pro lisbon and anti eu (as is - a political unit, possibly growing more so altho not under lisbon)

I am not sure that is possible. The EU (or the Communities as they then were) has always had a political dimension to it. After all, if you take the Coal & Steel industries - when they were perceived as the "engines of war" - and had them over to a High Authority (of the ECSC), how on earth can that be viewed as anything other than political?

Likewise, every economic decision (as in EEC style ones) has clear political ramifications, both internally within the EU (i.e. protectionism is out) and externally (i.e. the EC Trade Commissioner negotiates at the WTO on behalf of the EU). Again both of these have clear political dimensions to them.

Likewise, Political Cooperation has been done at EU level informally since at least the early 70's and formal since the SEA in the 80's. And, lest we forget, the electorate of Ireland approved the EU doing so in the referendum on the SEA way back then.

The EU is by its very nature political. Short of abolishing it, there is no way to make it non-political.

PopeBuckfastXVI

I really believe that the majority of the people of the Union want to keep the political element intact, at least to the level it's currently at/will be at post Lisbon.

The UKIP EEC Model is very much in the minority.

conchubhar1

people know it is political - hence govt at the local and then ceding up to national and the discussions at the eu level

discussions, that will have political ramifications but some people dont find that neccessary

Scofflaw

conchubhar1 wrote: »

rationality changes...
you find it irrational other do not

Well, what rational reasons are there for only taking decisions within the nation-state, as opposed to simply seeking the level closest to the people that works?

cordially,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, what rational reasons are there for only taking decisions within the nation-state, as opposed to simply seeking the level closest to the people that works?

cordially,
Scofflaw

sorry, what? im not sure what you are getting at