Cowen using the Lisbon "YES" vote as an excuse to pull us out of this mess.

Run_to_da_hills

What a better way to fool the people into voting Yes by telling them that the Yes vote will help pull Ireland us out of this mess sooner.

The same mess that they got us into in the first place, ie unregulated greedy bankers, back handers with developers and billions of Euro down the toilet on white elephant projects.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hNsB7K_pvJfh3JGaARXyWBtW73aA

O'Morris

The attempt to link our economic recovery with a yes to the Lisbon Treaty is not all that different from the way the American neocons tried to hint at a link between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and the September 11th attacks. Sadly, as with the Americans, I think most Irish people will probably fall for it.

passive

I'd almost consider removing my ignoring of the OP to see what this thread's about, but the laughable second post kinda reassures me in my suspicion that nothing is to be gained from reading this... The EU is obviously Hitler cubed.

conchubhar1

no passive ignorance is bliss - pff

netron

Cowen is toast.

That cringing , begging letter to the British would make any traditional FF nationalist sick as a pig.

Doesnt look good. For him, that is.

Rb

O'Morris wrote: »

The attempt to link our economic recovery with a yes to the Lisbon Treaty is not all that different from the way the American neocons tried to hint at a link between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and the September 11th attacks. Sadly, as with the Americans, I think most Irish people will probably fall for it.

Of course the Irish people will "fall" for it, the electorate vote with their pockets and what appears to be immediately positive for their pocket is what gets the tick.

Recent evidence of this would be the last general election, people had a real chance for change yet they feared FG would hike up the taxes and decided to keep the current shower of bastids on in the hope that their money might be safe, then FF come out with the "hard hitting" budget and finally people start to "care".

Oh no, it wasn't the defending of the crook Ahern, or his cohorts, that drove the people to the streets, it was their fear of losing their medical cards and the pension levy.

We've become a nation of naive, greedy, spineless rats, if the Government (incorrectly) imply that voting No will see our financial ruin or that voting Yes will see the building sector boom again, that is what will go through.

Podman

If this vote is passed, the ballot box will become a suggestion box.

It's the last real vote we will ever have. Do you really want to give up our freedom so easily?

Tell it to Collins, Pearse, Parnell and the rest, tell them we don't want it and they died for nothing.

Rb

chompy wrote: »

If this vote is passed, the ballot box will become a suggestion box.

It's the last real vote we will ever have. Do you really want to give up our freedom so easily?

Tell it to Collins, Pearse, Parnell and the rest, tell them we don't want it and they died for nothing.

What, in the Lisbon Treaty, "gives up" our Freedom?

You do know it makes it easier for us to leave the EU, if we should so want, right?

netron

chompy wrote: »

If this vote is passed, the ballot box will become a suggestion box.

It's the last real vote we will ever have. Do you really want to give up our freedom so easily?

Tell it to Collins, Pearse, Parnell and the rest, tell them we don't want it and they died for nothing.

to be fair to the Yes side - look what Collins , Pearse , Parnell resulted in - 60 years of brutal theocratic rule by the Catholic church.

It sure wasnt "freedom" - not by a long shot.

I'll be voting "No" , not for Irish nationalism, but because I believe that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic - my reasons for voting No will be entirely European, and not related to anything Irish.

I hope others approach it with the same mindset.

netron

Rb wrote: »

What, in the Lisbon Treaty, "gives up" our Freedom?

You do know it makes it easier for us to leave the EU, if we should so want, right?

EU Foreign minister - unelected
EU President - unelected
EU Commission - unelected

thats enough unelected positions for me. I'll be voting No.

Podman

netron wrote: »

..look what Collins , Pearse , Parnell resulted in - 60 years of brutal theocratic rule by the Catholic church..

These people are not responsible for what the Church did/does.

netron wrote: »

..I'll be voting "No" , not for Irish nationalism, but because I believe that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic..

me too.

Scofflaw

netron wrote: »

to be fair to the Yes side - look what Collins , Pearse , Parnell resulted in - 60 years of brutal theocratic rule by the Catholic church.

It sure wasnt "freedom" - not by a long shot.

I'll be voting "No" , not for Irish nationalism, but because I believe that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic - my reasons for voting No will be entirely European, and not related to anything Irish.

I hope others approach it with the same mindset.

Ooh...fish, barrel, where's my shotgun?

resisting temptation,
Scofflaw

netron

Scofflaw wrote: »

Ooh...fish, barrel, where's my shotgun?

resisting temptation,
Scofflaw

is it not the case that the EU Commission, which is unelected, can inact laws. And yet the EU Parliament cannot inact laws.

True or false?

Scofflaw

netron wrote: »

is it not the case that the EU Commission, which is unelected, can inact laws. And yet the EU Parliament cannot inact laws.

True or false?

Neither the Commission nor the Parliament can enact laws by and of themselves. None of the EU institutions can.

cordially,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1

''Neither the Commission nor the Parliament can enact laws by and of themselves. None of the EU institutions can.

cordially,
Scofflaw''



okay

with the help of the council......

dont avoid the question, with that sidestep

Scofflaw

conchubhar1 wrote: »

Neither the Commission nor the Parliament can enact laws by and of themselves. None of the EU institutions can.

okay

with the help of the council......

dont avoid the question, with that sidestep

It's not really a sidestep - it's more pointing out the inadequacy of the question. If the question is "who has the right of legislative initiative", then the answer is the Commission. Does that mean the Commission can "pass laws"? No, it doesn't, because what the Commission initiates must be passed by the Council and/or the Parliament.

The only point to boiling a complex system down to a 'simple' yes/no question is rhetoric - in other words, propaganda. It's like asking "who has the power in Ireland?" - the question is without value.

cordially,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1

rhetoric does not equal propaganda

okay i worded that wrong - reading back on it is cring worthy my bad


the commission cant pass laws

Scofflaw

conchubhar1 wrote: »

rhetoric does not equal propaganda

okay i worded that wrong - reading back on it is cring worthy my bad


the commission cant pass laws

Not by itself, no. It has some regulatory powers where those have been delegated to it by the Council, but otherwise everything has to go past either the governments, the parliament, or both.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Podman

I'm trying to get a simple picture of the pecking order in the new EU (please amend for truth).
so far..

The Commission can stop a bill from passing, unless The Council removes it's powers.

The Parliament and The Governments have only an advisory role, and can be ignored?

Of these 4 groups, who exactly are we able to elect Directly into that office?

conchubhar1

meps in the parliment are the only directly elected

but the european council is the leaders of states (prime minsiters, i think exclusively) so they are direcly eclected

commission is elected in several ways by people who are directly elected - so in a way they are elected

the (council of the european union) council of ministers - are directly elected in the way they are ministers that are elected


---
names are not right above - but the jist is right and the points gotten?

SeanW

does anyone else think it's a bad idea to have another Lisbon referendum during the tenure of this government? Even though we did not have a General Election this year, the people still rendered their judgement by hammering gov't parties - particularly the Greens - in the elections that were held. Yet despite that, Cowen and Co. still think they have a mandate to govern. Well, technically & legally they do, but no more.

But given this trend, it doesn't seem to make sense to have a 2nd Lisbon referendum during this governments reign.

To maintain an objective an electorate as possible, I would think it would make more sense to hold the referendum on the same day as a general election.

Podman

I think so, it's late and the treaty text is buried in legalese (usually a bad omen for me)

So the MEPs are the only one's Directly elected to EU posts.

Everyone else is elected by other electees, or was in the right place at the right time (eg. ministers, etc)

dyl10

Yes vote for me. I would prefer not to see us expelled from the EU or rather a new EU setup with the Lisbon Treaty as it's basis and Ireland being left out on the lurch.

Rb

dyl10 wrote: »

Yes vote for me. I would prefer not to see us expelled from the EU or rather a new EU setup with the Lisbon Treaty as it's basis and Ireland being left out on the lurch.

It won't happen.

conchubhar1

if the eu sideline us or kick us out (fantasy) we should stay out

if it does this - does it deserve existence?

Podman

SeanW wrote: »

does anyone else think it's a bad idea to have another Lisbon referendum during the tenure of this government?..

yep

SeanW wrote: »

..hammering gov't parties - particularly the Greens..

Well, Gormless did bend over when it came to green issues, even though he was "given" the "green" job. It seemed his thinking changed somewhere along the line, environmental issues took a back seat to big business and roads.
Fair play to Trevor, giving FF the ffingers.

SeanW wrote: »

..hold the referendum on the same day as a general election..

no, I think a general election first, to have leaders that we actually elect.

Podman

dyl10 wrote: »

Yes vote for me. I would prefer not to see us expelled from the EU or rather a new EU setup with the Lisbon Treaty as it's basis and Ireland being left out on the lurch.

Sure half the Illuminazi live in Ireland now, they're not going to give it up. They want control of Europe because the resources of the US are depleting.

They want us to be smiling when the country is handed over on a plate.

Scofflaw

chompy wrote: »

I'm trying to get a simple picture of the pecking order in the new EU (please amend for truth).
so far..

The Commission can stop a bill from passing, unless The Council removes it's powers.

The Parliament and The Governments have only an advisory role, and can be ignored?

Of these 4 groups, who exactly are we able to elect Directly into that office?

Hm. Lisbon makes no changes to the 'pecking order'. From the top:

1. Intergovernmental Conference (IGC). A group consisting of delegations from every member state government - negotiate/write the EU treaties. Meets as required.

2. The European Council is a council of the heads of the member states. Elected nationally, obviously. No legal role, but they set the "ground rules" for the EU and decide major issues. Is the supreme political authority in the EU. Meets at least twice a year.

3. The Council of the European Union is a council comprising the Ministers of the member state governments. Elected nationally, again. This is the main decision-making body in the EU. It can delegate its powers of decision to the Commission (within tightly constrained limits), but otherwise all legislation has to pass through the Council. Council can request, amend, and reject legislation.

4. The European Parliament consists of directly elected MEPs. Elected Europe-wide. The main accountability body in the EU. Can reject or dismiss the Commission, refuse the EU budget. Can currently request, amend, and reject legislation in about 75% of legislative areas, increases significantly under Lisbon.

5. The Commission consists of appointed Commissioners, one per member state at present. This is the main regulatory body of the EU. The Commission holds the right of legislative initiative, but can only pass regulations itself in those areas where the power to do so has been delegated to it by the Council. Drafts and proposes all legislation.

New in Lisbon:

6. The national parliaments gain the right to see and object to proposed EU legislation. If sufficient parliaments object to legislation, it becomes significantly easier for either the Council or the Parliament to veto the legislation.

7. Citizens Initiative - not highly regarded in Ireland, since we don't have a legislative petition mechanism of our own. Allows the electorate to request legislation directly from the Commission on foot of a million-signature petition.

There isn't really a 'pecking order' - all the institutions have some of the power, but they have to work together to produce anything.

cordially,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1

could the extra control to the parliment, human rights charter and citezens initiative be implemented without the lisbon treaty?

and should they not be there fecking already

besides these points, i dont see a reason for voting yes.....

Run_to_da_hills

SeanW wrote: »

But given this trend, it doesn't seem to make sense to have a 2nd Lisbon referendum during this governments reign.

What odds dose it make, If Labour or Fina Gael got in they would still push for a Yes vote despite Finna Fail's current downturn in confidence.

The only party that truly rejected the last referendum was Sinn Fein. Its all about what the people want and not what the politicians want.

conchubhar1

socialist party aswel ^ (among others, mckenna for one)