ag déanamh, a dhéanamh

pog it

A grammar question I'm afraid, hopefully easy to answer for somebody, just ain't for me at the mo.

1. I always would have used: 'Cad atá á dhéanamh agat?'
but Christian Brothers book has: 'an obair a bhi á déanamh agam
.. so I'm wondering do you have the choice of whether or not you put a séimhiu in after the á in this case?

2. The other thing is, is 'an obair a bhi mé ag déanamh' okay to use? Again I found 'an obair a bhi mé a dhéanamh' in Christian Brothers and I'm thinking 'ag déanamh' is wrong in the first sentence since there is a relative clause and so that might mean that the particle 'a' must be used. Course maybe they're both okay!

Hope somebody can help with one of these! Cheers folks.

An gal gréine

I dont have the grammatical explanation but "An obair a bhí á déanamh agat" would not be said, nor would "An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh". The alternatives you suggest are the ones to use.

FlutterinBantam

Not too sure but

"A dheanabh" would refer to what are you doing now

"Ag dheanabh" would refer to what you have done

onemorechance

pog it wrote: »

A grammar question I'm afraid, hopefully easy to answer for somebody, just ain't for me at the mo.

1. I always would have used: 'Cad atá á dhéanamh agat?'
but Christian Brothers book has: 'an obair a bhi á déanamh agam
.. so I'm wondering do you have the choice of whether or not you put a séimhiu in after the á in this case?

2. The other thing is, is 'an obair a bhi mé ag déanamh' okay to use? Again I found 'an obair a bhi mé a dhéanamh' in Christian Brothers and I'm thinking 'ag déanamh' is wrong in the first sentence since there is a relative clause and so that might mean that the particle 'a' must be used. Course maybe they're both okay!

Hope somebody can help with one of these! Cheers folks.

"Cad atá á dhéanamh agat?" means "What are you doing / making?"

"an obair a bhi á dhéanamh agam" means "the work that I was doing"

An gal gréine wrote: »

I dont have the grammatical explanation but "An obair a bhí á déanamh agat" would not be said, nor would "An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh". The alternatives you suggest are the ones to use.

"An obair a bhí á dhéanamh agat" means "The work that you were doing" and it would be said.

"An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh" means "the work that I was doing" and it also would be said.

An gal gréine

"An obair a bhí á dhéanamh agat" means "The work that you were doing" and it would be said.

"An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh" means "the work that I was doing" and it also would be said.[/quote]


The first one is correct. What I pointed out was that "á déanamh" without the "h" would not be said.
The second one, I would still contend that , is not good Irish and "An obair a bhí á dhéanamh agam" would be said rather than "An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh".

Micilin Muc

pog it wrote: »

1. I always would have used: 'Cad atá á dhéanamh agat?'
but Christian Brothers book has: 'an obair a bhi á déanamh agam
.. so I'm wondering do you have the choice of whether or not you put a séimhiu in after the á in this case?

An post a bhí á dhéanamh agam (post is masculine)
An obair a bhí á déanamh agam (obair is feminine)
Na boird a bhí á ndéanamh agam (boird is plural).

pog it wrote: »

2. The other thing is, is 'an obair a bhi mé ag déanamh' okay to use? Again I found 'an obair a bhi mé a dhéanamh' in Christian Brothers and I'm thinking 'ag déanamh' is wrong in the first sentence since there is a relative clause and so that might mean that the particle 'a' must be used. Course maybe they're both okay!

Hope somebody can help with one of these! Cheers folks.

I think they're both okay, but I still have to get my head around the difference between the two (an obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh/an obair a bhí ag déanamh).

pog it

An gal gréine wrote: »

I dont have the grammatical explanation but "An obair a bhí á déanamh agat" would not be said, nor would "An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh". The alternatives you suggest are the ones to use.

I'm battling with it because 'á déanamh' is in the Christian Brothers New Irish Grammar book... if you have it, it's page 143.

But just saw Micilin muc's message and so it's down to gender? Woo! Thankies!! Basically the same rules of aspiration and eclipsis as apply for possessive adjectives yea?

I wonder though since it's a relative clause, would
an obair a bhi mé a dhéanamh be the grammatically more correct, more so than
an obair a bhi mé ag déanamh

because you need the relative particle 'a'.

Or..........is the particle 'a' purely optional?!!

onemorechance

An gal gréine wrote: »

The first one is correct. What I pointed out was that "á déanamh" without the "h" would not be said.
The second one, I would still contend that , is not good Irish and "An obair a bhí á dhéanamh agam" would be said rather than "An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh".

"An obair a bhí á dhéanamh agam" would be used far more by people who speak Irish as their primary language than "An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh".

Micilin Muc wrote: »

An post a bhí á dhéanamh agam (post is masculine)
An obair a bhí á déanamh agam (obair is feminine)
Na boird a bhí á ndéanamh agam (boird is plural).


I think they're both okay, but I still have to get my head around the difference between the two (an obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh/an obair a bhí ag déanamh).

"An obair a bhí á dhéanamh agam" this definetly needs the "h" or else it would not sound right.

Micilin Muc

onemorechance wrote: »

"An obair a bhí á dhéanamh agam" would be used far more by people who speak Irish as their primary language than "An obair a bhí mé ag déanamh".



"An obair a bhí á dhéanamh agam" this definetly needs the "h" or else it would not sound right.

Obair is feminine. So there's no séimhiú. See my previous post.

onemorechance

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Obair is feminine. So there's no séimhiú. See my previous post.

That's the post I was referring to. Tá sé mícheart!

Sampla den úsáid ceart:

http://www.teg.ie/pdf/teagasc/B1/04_treoracha.pdf

"Ag cur ceiste ar dhuine/dhaoine cén obair a dhéanann siad agus ag freagairt na ceiste sin"

pog it

Micilin is right I reckon- I just read through the entire CB grammar book again (the small one ) and on page 85 the rules are all there.

The quotes from TEG with 'a dhéanann' and 'cur sios a dhéanamh' are 1. different form of the verb and in 2. to do is always séimhiued. It's the verbal noun that I had in my question.

Irish can be a bitch eh!

onemorechance

pog it wrote: »

Micilin is right I reckon- I just read through the entire CB grammar book again (the small one ) and on page 85 the rules are all there.

a dhéanann is a different form of the verb. It's the verbal noun that I had in my question.

Irish can be a bitch eh!

We'll go with Micilín and the book so!

pog it

It's a good grammar book if you can get your hands on it, I find it even better than some of the others since its so condensed but has a lot in it, and it's all in English- but sometimes if you don't know the basis of something like what I was asking about, you're not sure what to look for exactly :rolleyes:

Micilin Muc

onemorechance wrote: »

That's the post I was referring to. Tá sé mícheart!

Sampla den úsáid ceart:

http://www.teg.ie/pdf/teagasc/B1/04_treoracha.pdf

You're mixing up 'a' and 'á'! My post above refers to 'á'!

dlofnep

Is 'a dhéanamh' not just the verbal noun of déan, while ag déanamh is presently doing?

Like

Chuaigh mé go dtí an chistin chun rud a dhéanamh.
Tá mé ag déanamh my scrúduithe.

At least, this was my understanding of it. Am I wrong?

Micilin Muc

dlofnep wrote: »

Is 'a dhéanamh' not just the verbal noun of déan, while ag déanamh is presently doing?

Like

Chuaigh mé go dtí an chistin chun rud a dhéanamh.
Tá mé ag déanamh my scrúduithe.

At least, this was my understanding of it. Am I wrong?

Both of your examples are correct. But both are the verbal noun, with different particles.

The OP's question is the difference between 'an obair atá mé a dhéanamh' and 'an obair atá á déanamh agam'.

dlofnep

Oh ok. Sorry

Micilin Muc

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Both of your examples are correct. But both are the verbal noun, with different particles.

The OP's question is the difference between 'an obair atá mé a dhéanamh' and 'an obair atá á déanamh agam'.

My mistake. The OP's second question is the difference between

'an obair a bhí mé ag déanamh'

and

'an obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh'.

As a native speaker and teacher, this is the one thing I can't get my head around.

Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí is the most authoritative grammar and it says:

4.6, page 28: Séimhítear an túschonsan nuair atá ... an t-ainm briathartha faoi réir ag ... [an réamhfhocal] a.

Therefore you'd say:

• Caithfidh mé an nuachtán a cheannach.
• Caithfidh mé an deoch a dhíol.
• Ba mhaith liom an doras a dhúnadh.

14.11, page 155:

• tá Bríd ag rith
• an rud atáthar a dhéanamh

I would say "an rud atáthar ag déanamh", so I'm confused there.

The craic really starts in the chapter on Comhréir an Ainm Bhriathartha (page 226), but maybe the explanation is in this paragraph below on page 230.

An réamhfhocal ag a úsáidtear go hiondúil nuair nach luaitear aon chuspóir (ach féach cás abairtí leathdhiúltacha thíos), agus nuair a thagann an cuspóir go díreach ar lorg an ainm bhriathartha (nó ar lorg dobhriathair atá á cháiliú): bíodh (tá, bíonn, etc.) sé ag rith; bíodh (tá, bíonn, etc.) sí ag crú na bó; chuala mé é ag tabhairt amach an chapaill.

Therefore ag is used over a when no object is mentioned.

This leads me to believe that "An obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh" is correct as "obair" is the object ...

I need rest after that!

pog it

I like that and all.
There is no 'ag déanamh' in any of the CB examples in the New Grammar book when it comes to the direct relative clause so that corresponds to exactly what you just explained.

Maybe 'an rud atáthar ag déanamh' you said you would use is part of your dialect, but not necessarily in the caighdeán?

pog it

Maybe it's analepsis?
Analepsis is the use of a pronominal to stand for a noun or phrase which occurs earlier in the sentence.

I'll have to read up more on this Forget this!!

Oky, so have a look at this link, it goes through the various uses of verbal nouns and it looks like what we are talking about falls into the 'progressive infinitive' mode of verbal noun uses.

You have to scroll down a wee bit to get to that part.

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm

Micilin Muc

pog it wrote: »

Maybe it's analepsis?
Analepsis is the use of a pronominal to stand for a noun or phrase which occurs earlier in the sentence.

I'll have to read up more on this Forget this!!

Oky, so have a look at this link, it goes through the various uses of verbal nouns and it looks like what we are talking about falls into the 'progressive infinitive' mode of verbal noun uses.

You have to scroll down a wee bit to get to that part.

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm

Wow! a lot there! will read it again tomorrow, go raibh maith agat!

rororoyourboat

This used to wreck my head when I studied it in college! It's not too bad though, once you get your head around it.

What helped me was this equation: (Hopefully it doesn't just confuse you more!)

-If you have the following sentence structure:

[noun] [a] + [bhí/tá/beidh etc] + mé + ag + verb,
eg, Sin [an obair] [a] [bhí] mé ag déanamh,

It becomes: "Sin an obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh"

The 'ag' becomes 'a' and you put a seimhiú in the verb that follows.

eg:
Sin an bia a bhí mé ag ceannach. -> Sin an bia a bhí mé a cheannach
Sin an teach a tá mé ag tógáil. -> Sin an teach a tá mé a thógail

Though please correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't looked over this in any great detail before posting!

Hope it is of some help and it doesn't confuse anyone too much!

Múinteoir

rororoyourboat wrote: »

This used to wreck my head when I studied it in college! It's not too bad though, once you get your head around it.

What helped me was this equation: (Hopefully it doesn't just confuse you more!)

-If you have the following sentence structure:

[noun] [a] + [bhí/tá/beidh etc] + mé + ag + verb,
eg, Sin [an obair] [a] [bhí] mé ag déanamh,

It becomes: "Sin an obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh"

The 'ag' becomes 'a' and you put a seimhiú in the verb that follows.

eg:
Sin an bia a bhí mé ag ceannach. -> Sin an bia a bhí mé a cheannach
Sin an teach a tá mé ag tógáil. -> Sin an teach a tá mé a thógail

Though please correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't looked over this in any great detail before posting!

Hope it is of some help and it doesn't confuse anyone too much!

Looks good to me.

jamesnp

Ok, there's a lot of confusion in this post caused by people not really understanding the grammar of the OP's Q1 sentence. I know at least one person has been correct, but let me clear it up once and for all.

An obair a bhí á déanamh agam CORRECT
The work which was being done by me

For illustrative purposes I will simplify the sentence to:
Bhí an obair á déanamh
The work was being done

This tense is known as the "progressive passive form" (foirm leanúnach chéasta). To grasp why the Christian Brothers version is correct, it's very important to understand what is literally being said:

Bhí an obair á déanamh
"The work was at its doing"

As we can see, the "á" is actually not a particle like relative "a", but rather "ag a" -> "á" preposition "ag" with 3rd person possessive pronoun which refers to the subject of the phrase, "obair". This possessive pronoun affects the following noun in the same way as in standard usage: a charr (his car) a carr (her car) a gcarr (their car). As "obair" is feminine, the reference to it should not cause lenition (a "h") or nasilisation (a "g") in the following word.

To get from "Bhí an obair á déanamh" to "An obair a bhí á déanamh agam", all that is being done is switching the verb to the relative to provide emphasis on the subject, something which is quite common in Irish, and an agent is being added by the preposition "ag".

An obair a bhí á déanamh agam
The work which was at its doing at me
The work which was being done by me

In all likelihood, a native speaker will no longer observe this rule in speech, and simply assume a masculine subject for all but petrified phrases.

Hope this clears it up once and for all,
jp

jamesnp

Ok, OP's 2nd question and

Micilin Muc wrote: »

The difference between

'an obair a bhí mé ag déanamh'

and

'an obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh'.

This one's easy to explain.

an obair a bhí mé ag déanamh INCORRECT
an obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh CORRECT

Tá mé ag déanamh na hoibre
An obair atá mé a dhéanamh

Both of these are basically the same sentence. The reason "ag" is used in one and "a + lenition" in the other is because the second sentence is in the relative. That's basically it.

-jp

Micilin Muc

jamesnp wrote: »

Ok, OP's 2nd question and


This one's easy to explain.

an obair a bhí mé ag déanamh INCORRECT
an obair a bhí mé a dhéanamh CORRECT

Tá mé ag déanamh na hoibre
An obair atá mé a dhéanamh

Both of these are basically the same sentence. The reason "ag" is used in one and "a + lenition" in the other is because the second sentence is in the relative. That's basically it.

-jp

Go raibh míle maith agat jp. Beidh orm sin a scrúdú anois!