Screwed by a car salesman

maybo

Hi all. I'm in court this week because I failed to show my NCT cert at the Garda station within 10 days of a random road check. I've now found out that the car, which I bought seond-hand, was not NCT certified for the time that I was stopped. The car had a (presumably fake) NCT disc in the Window when I bought it that said that the car was covered. I've sold the car over a year ago and so have no way of seeing the old NCT disc.

Now I'm due in court... will the Judge believe me or does it matter? Will I be done anyway for not checking it myself when I bought the car? It was my first car and I bought it second-hand from a dealer out on the Longmile Road. Any suggestions or tips would be very much appreciated. Thanks a lot.:mad:

Anan1

You really need to talk to a solicitor. Did you check when you bought the car that the NCT cert & disc details matched the car? What exactly happened when you were stopped?

OldmanMondeo

maybo wrote: »

Now I'm due in court... will the Judge believe me or does it matter? Will I be done anyway for not checking it myself when I bought the car? It was my first car and I bought it second-hand from a dealer out on the Longmile Road. Any suggestions or tips would be very much appreciated. Thanks a lot.:mad:

You are responsible to ensure you have all documents relating to your car. You have the car a year, I presume with not NCT Disc either. You could have got a copy of the NCT cert and even if the car was out of NCT you would have known then.

I also presume your in court because you fialed to pay a fixed penalty notice. Don't mean to sound hard or on a hgh horse, but you are totally responsible and not the garage, as you have the car for a year now. Plenty of time to sort these things out.

maybo

...I was stopped randomly and the reason I'm in court is because I was asked by the Garda who stopped me to show my NCT and insurance at my local station but didn't hear the cert part and only showed my insurance. I failed to show my NCT cert and therfore have to go to court! When I bought the car, all I checked was the disc in the window and it had the right details and said the NCT wasn't due for 2 years. Looks like I'm screwed. Bugger. Thansk guys.

niceirishfella

Seek proper legal advice from a solicitor.
I would believe that YOU are responsible for all documentation relating to your vehicle.
Also, going to court, dress smart,be well groomed and respect the court.

smash

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

I also presume your in court because you fialed to pay a fixed penalty notice.

Don't make presumptions, you can get brought to court 3 cases of NCT:

Driving without NCT.
Not displaying NCT in window.
Failure to produce an NCT cert at Gardai station.

It's nothing to do with fixed penalties.

NewApproach

I would think that you are at fault in this case.

However, there is no reason why you cant bring a counter claim against the car dealer...

Twin-go

Get Legal advise from solicitor:

But there maybe somthing relating to the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act. If the car was sold to you as having a valid NCT and it did not. Car was sold not as discribed and may not have been of Merchantable quality if it could not pass an NCT. You will need dated receipts as proof of purchase.

niceirishfella

Twin-go wrote: »

Get Legal advise from solicitor:

But there maybe somthing relating to the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act. If the car was sold to you as having a valid NCT and it did not. Car was sold not as discribed and may not have been of Merchantable quality if it could not pass an NCT. You will need dated receipts as proof of purchase.

would depend if an NCT was "in the deal" or just assumed to be in the deal.

Big Nasty

As a matter of interest, how long after you produced your insurance (and not the NCT) was it until the summons arrived? Seeing as you sold the car on a year ago I am guessing it was quite a while......

robtri

unfortunately, regardless of what the salesman told you or not, by law you are required to ensure that the car you are driving, whether you own it or not is fully road legal and complies with all laws in relation to such vehicle, including showing NCT certs and makig sure they are valid...
It is your responsibility....

as stated above, you need proper legal advice, to see what your options are and to see if you want to take a civil case against the garage that sold you the car.

robbie99

What exactly are you charged with?

If it is only "Failure to produce an NCT cert at Gardai station" then you could plead that you never heard the garda ask you to produce the cert at the station and you would have sorted it out like you followed up on the insurance cert.

If it's "Driving without NCT" then you really need a good solicitor to explain the extenuating circumstances.

Saab Ed

robbie99 wrote: »

If it is only "Failure to produce an NCT cert at Gardai station" then you could plead that you never heard the garda ask you to produce the cert at the station and you would have sorted it out like you followed up on the insurance cert.

I

Sorry but if you produced your insurance details did the guard not ask you for a copy of the NCT cert when you where there or the original guard not contact you soon after to ask you to do so. Plus how or why do you know it was a fake disc in the window. You forgot all about the cert but seem to have done alot of homework about what disc was in the car even though you sold the car a year ago (Presumably with the same fake disc that you never bothered following up....or did you ). OP Im very sorry if Im appearing to be slightly cautious with what you are telling us but its not adding up to me. You seem to have all the right answers where it maters yet couldnt have done the most simple of things and produce said cert or at the same point discover said disc was a fake.

Anan1

robbie99 wrote: »

What exactly are you charged with?

If it is only "Failure to produce an NCT cert at Gardai station" then you could plead that you never heard the garda ask you to produce the cert at the station and you would have sorted it out like you followed up on the insurance cert.

The problem here is that the car didn't have a valid NCT, so the OP couldn't have produced it in any case.

Saab Ed

Anan1 wrote: »

The problem here is that the car didn't have a valid NCT, so the OP couldn't have produced it in any case.

Thats true but if the car is sold over a year ago and it appears that the OP for some reason now knows that this disc is a fake it seems that a lot of time has elapased since the problem was first noticed and now. OP when did you produce, when did you get the summons, when did you figure out the disc was fake and how did you figure out the disc was fake?

robbie99

Assuming the OP is genuine about the circumstances, (only discovering now that the car wasn't NCT'd), one thing that a solicitor may be able to do is to get the case adjourned a few weeks to give you time to find the current owners of the car who presumably would have the same possibly fake NCT cert on their windscreen. A judge will be more inclined to believe you if you can produce the evidence showing why you thought there was no issue with the NCT.

mickdw

Im not buying a word of this.

Sounds like OP was driving around with a dodgy NCT disc (Knowingly). Garda requests that the cert be produced. Op goes to station and just produces insurance thinking nothing more might come of it. Gardai send summons.
If you realised that the disc was fake while you owned the car, you would have gone to garage about it, possibly even gone to gardai. Booked car in for test and got test.
Your actions dont make sense.
How do you now know the disc was fake? Did you knowingly sell on the car with the fake disc?
Maybe you are assuming it was fake because of the summons to court when infact the summons may only be for not producing the nct when required?

Saab Ed

robbie99 wrote: »

Assuming the OP is genuine about the circumstances, (only discovering now that the car wasn't NCT'd), one thing that a solicitor may be able to do is to get the case adjourned a few weeks to give you time to find the current owners of the car who presumably would have the same possibly fake NCT cert on their windscreen. A judge will be more inclined to believe you if you can produce the edvidence showing why you thought there was no issue with the NCT.

You see thats my point really. presumably the court case is for non producing of the cert not for producing a fake cert and the OP has already said the car is long gone.....so Im confused, How do they know the cert is a fake?

gillo_100

Sorry if I am missing something here, but why would you be requested to bring your cert to the garda station if the disc being displayed covered you, unless the guard realised it was a fake in which case would he not have brought up that issue at the time.

Surely once the disc is valid that enough, I know I don't have a copy of any NCT cert, just the disc in the window which was there when I bought the car.
I did do one of those motorcheck so I know the car is in NCT, but i still don't have any certificate, is this not enough.

Saab Ed

gillo_100 wrote: »

Surely once the disc is valid that enough, I know I don't have a copy of any NCT cert, just the disc in the window which was there when I bought the car.
.

Nope. A friend of my wifes got an 80 quid fine for doing exactly that....not producing her cert. If the guard asks you to produce a cert then thats what you must do. See its real work to contact the DOE themselves , much easier to take a chance after they have stopped you and let you drive off again with what might be an unsafe car

gillo_100

Is there any way of getting a copy of the cert then as I don't have one.

TBH I never even thought of looking for one when i bought the car same with the tax cert, I thought the disc was enough.

Also bit surprised as I bought from a reputable main dealer so I would have thought if you are required to have cert as well as disc they would have known.

Seems a bit silly to me to be honest, surely if you can fake the disc can also fail cert.

robbie99

Saab Ed wrote: »

You see thats my point really. presumably the court case is for non producing of the cert not for producing a fake cert and the OP has already said the car is long gone.....so Im confused, How do they know the cert is a fake?

OP did state that he examined the details on his NCT cert when he bought the car and that it was valid for two more years.

I guess that now a year later, since he's been charged, he's done a cartell check or even rung NCT themselves to find out that all along the car wasn't NCT'd. I think that OP is assuming that the NCT disc he examined must have been a fake.

I doubt that the charge has anything to do with a 'fake' disc. More likely he's been charged with failure to produce at the Garda station or charged with driving without NCT. If it's the later then guilty as charged. If it's the former then guilty as well but if the Garda never asked him to produce then the charge should be thrown out. Nobody is suggesting that the Garda didn't ask but but if the judge believes the OP when he says that he didn't hear being asked to produce and that there was no reason to believe at the time that the car was out of NCT then there's a chance that the judge could dismiss the case. OP did mention that he doesn't recall being asked to produce and I'm assuming he's honest and genuine.

Big Nasty

Saab Ed wrote: »

Nope. A friend of my wifes got an 80 quid fine for doing exactly that....not producing her cert. If the guard asks you to produce a cert then thats what you must do. See its real work to contact the DOE themselves , much easier to take a chance after they have stopped you and let you drive off again with what might be an unsafe car

Well if that's the case shouldn't the OP have received the €80 fine long *before* he got any court summons?

Saab Ed

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Well if that's the case shouldn't the OP have received the €80 fine long *before* he got any court summons?

No she got the fine in court. Sorry should have said that.

maidhc

maybo wrote: »

Hi all. I'm in court this week because I failed to show my NCT cert at the Garda station within 10 days of a random road check.

Why?

maybo wrote: »

I've now found out that the car, which I bought seond-hand, was not NCT certified for the time that I was stopped.

This is not actually relevant. The reason you are in court is because you did not produce the cert. Now of course it would help to no end if you actully did have a valid NCT, but the reality is you ignored the Garda and the entire issue until now when it is a bit late to do anything about it.

No disrespect, but you screwed yourself.