FF attacking the vulnerable

conchubhar1

no

but in the current climate - are there jobs for the 10% ish unemployed?

no so for the time being - it is to support them as a job might come but unlikely

Spudmonkey

whippet wrote: »

they are the vunerable, but unfortunatly our politicians, lobby group and social partners seem to want to use this classification of person for just about everyone, including those who earned above the EU average in wages for the guts of a decade, choose to spend it on a vastly inflated property market, desires for new cars, extra holidays every year all topped up with a multitude of credit cards, loans and overdrafts ...... these are not the vunerable in society, these are the cubs who thought they were invincible and are now crying foul !!

solice wrote: »

If you could survive a year ago on 197 a week, and prices are cheaper now than they were then, should you not be paid less?

I agree whole-heartedly with these two points.. Vulnerable is a term I associated with families with sick family members who cannot afford medical payments or elderly people.. People who made stupid and rash decisions thinking they were going to make a killing in the property market are not vulnerable. This term is over-used and has lost it's meaning...

Also the cost of living has decreased since last year, if families could afford to live on welfare then, they can most certainly live on a lesser amount now. Where is the money going to come from otherwise?

solice

conchubhar1 wrote: »

it was in line with inflation - that was my point - it wasnt bump up because of ff vast niceness for people

possibly so

families can not survive on 197 a week in ireland

Nobody is asking a family to survive on 197 a week.

Lets take a typical family, 2 parents (unemployed) and 2 children:

What benefits can they claim apart from the €409.60 that the 2 parents (combined) get for being unemployed?

turgon

whippet wrote: »

My understanding is that social welfare payments are there to support people while they are trying to find their feet and provide for themselves. I get the feeling more and more that people expect that social welfare give people an option of a supported lifestyle.

And why wouldnt they? Were I getting the dole Id qualify for €200 as week even though Im living at home and getting free everything already. Why would I want to go work 24 hours a week (and I wouldnt get more with the recession) for the same money instead of basking out in the sun all day?

Spudmonkey

conchubhar1 wrote: »

it was in line with inflation - that was my point - it wasnt bump up because of ff vast niceness for people

possibly so

families can not survive on 197 a week in ireland

It wasn't in line with inflation, it increased faster than inflation!

conchubhar1

because your (not?) a leech and would work should you have an oppurtunity


your view on the people not working is narrow minded, they are not all leeches

conchubhar1

solice wrote: »

Nobody is asking a family to survive on 197 a week.

Lets take a typical family, 2 parents (unemployed) and 2 children:

What benefits can they claim apart from the €409.60 that the 2 parents (combined) get for being unemployed?

i dunno, what can they claim for?

what about single parent families?

---

this isnt to the above poster

people have to get of the leech attitude, people arent unemployed purely cos they are lazy or want to gain more for less work

yes some people do - most dont

El Stuntman

conchubhar1 wrote: »

it was in line with inflation - that was my point - it wasnt bump up because of ff vast niceness for people

can I politely point out that the growth in welfare rates far outsripped the rate of inflation? We have already proved this for CB and UB so please don't propagate nonsense

El Stuntman

in any case this argument is completely pointless - the hounds of hell wouldnt be able to put a halt to the cost cutting that is to come and that will include all aspects of the SW budget

personally I'd start by scrapping Child Benefit 100%. Kids clothing, school books, health treatment to be provided free to all SW recipients.

then I'd move on to actually using the government's bulk purchasing power and negotiate a discount scheme with all the food retailers. Bang - every SW recipient gets 75 euro a week in food vouchers (can be spent on food only, no alcohol or cigarette purchases). Free travel for SW receipients too.

Then I'd cut the dole to 50 euro per week cash payment.

Immediately cut rent allowances by 30% - if landlords don't like it, there's 300,000 empties out there.

Institute a 'make work' scheme for all physically able dole recipients. 2 days a week you work for your community - painting walls in classrooms, cleaning beaches, maintaining parks and playgrounds, planting trees, training underage GAA teams etc. Gives unemployed a sense of purpose and also pride\ownership in their community.

cue calls of 'fascist' but hey, I've just saved 10 billion.

deadhead13

turgon wrote: »

And why wouldnt they? Were I getting the dole Id qualify for €200 as week even though Im living at home and getting free everything already. Why would I want to go work 24 hours a week (and I wouldnt get more with the recession) for the same money instead of basking out in the sun all day?

It is not as if the vast majority of people currently unemployed have a choice between working or not working.

El Stuntman

deadhead13 wrote: »

It is not as if the vast majority of people currently unemployed have a choice between working or not working.

maybe but we'd certainly rather incentivise them one way rather than the other...

conchubhar1

El Stuntman wrote: »

in any case this argument is completely pointless - the hounds of hell wouldnt be able to put a halt to the cost cutting that is to come and that will include all aspects of the SW budget

personally I'd start by scrapping Child Benefit 100%. Kids clothing, school books, health treatment to be provided free to all SW recipients.

then I'd move on to actually using the government's bulk purchasing power and negotiate a discount scheme with all the food retailers. Bang - every SW recipient gets 75 euro a week in food vouchers (can be spent on food only, no alcohol or cigarette purchases). Free travel for SW receipients too.

Then I'd cut the dole to 50 euro per week cash payment.

Immediately cut rent allowances by 30% - if landlords don't like it, there's 300,000 empties out there.

Institute a 'make work' scheme for all physically able dole recipients. 2 days a week you work for your community - painting walls in classrooms, cleaning beaches, maintaining parks and playgrounds, planting trees, training underage GAA teams etc. Gives unemployed a sense of purpose and also pride\ownership in their community.

cue calls of 'fascist' but hey, I've just saved 10 billion.

thank god you arent in power

conchubhar1

El Stuntman wrote: »

can I politely point out that the growth in welfare rates far outsripped the rate of inflation? We have already proved this for CB and UB so please don't propagate nonsense

okay - it wasnt because of ff niceness to people was my original point

opinion - not ''propogating nonsense''

El Stuntman

conchubhar1 wrote: »

thank god you arent in power

not yet, I'm working on it

conchubhar1

El Stuntman wrote: »

not yet, I'm working on it

not to be harsh - but i hope you fail


cutting school books and clothes out - great way to work for the future

El Stuntman

conchubhar1 wrote: »

thank god you arent in power

by the way, does your highlighting of my CB proposal mean that you agree with the current system of universal CB payments (i.e. Mick O'Leary gets the same as Joe the postman per kid)?

turgon

Why not? Why should people who have no kids have to pay for other peoples children?

El Stuntman

conchubhar1 wrote: »

not to be harsh - but i hope you fail


cutting school books and clothes out - great way to work for the future

you should try reading my post properly; I proposed giving free school books, clothing and health care to all kids whose families are on Social Welfare

try again, there's a good chap

solice

conchubhar1 wrote: »

okay - it wasnt because of ff niceness to people was my original point

opinion - not ''propogating nonsense''

You are right there, they did it because they wanted the votes, not what was best for the country. Now they have dug a hole, they cant afford to pay the current levels of SW but they cant reduce it because they dont have the liathroidi (:D best thing that came from the apprentice)

conchubhar1

my bad - misread your post

Spudmonkey

El Stuntman wrote: »

personally I'd start by scrapping Child Benefit 100%. Kids clothing, school books, health treatment to be provided free to all SW recipients.

then I'd move on to actually using the government's bulk purchasing power and negotiate a discount scheme with all the food retailers. Bang - every SW recipient gets 75 euro a week in food vouchers (can be spent on food only, no alcohol or cigarette purchases). Free travel for SW receipients too.

Then I'd cut the dole to 50 euro per week cash payment.

Immediately cut rent allowances by 30% - if landlords don't like it, there's 300,000 empties out there.

Institute a 'make work' scheme for all physically able dole recipients. 2 days a week you work for your community - painting walls in classrooms, cleaning beaches, maintaining parks and playgrounds, planting trees, training underage GAA teams etc. Gives unemployed a sense of purpose and also pride\ownership in their community.

cue calls of 'fascist' but hey, I've just saved 10 billion.

Agree with this, those on social welfare should be provided with what they need right, like food, clothing, books for school for the kids.

I think those physically able should be incentived to work for an extra bit of cash, they earn an extra bit of money, communities are improved!

El Stuntman

solice wrote: »

You are right there, they did it because they wanted the votes, not what was best for the country. Now they have dug a hole, they cant afford to pay the current levels of SW but they cant reduce it because they dont have the liathroidi (:D best thing that came from the apprentice)

what Cowen should do:

go on TV in the morning and explain in very simple language that the country is effectively bankrupt (it's amazing how many people have still not grasped this). Tell us that Fianna Fail are largely culpable for this. Tell us that harsh measures are going to be needed on all fronts in order to preserve our status as a sovereign nation.
Announce that he is cutting his salary to a symblic 1 euro per year until such time as the national budget is balanced.

Then proceed with the axe to all forms of government spending.

Genius PR move, smacks of pure leadership and fraternity.

What he will do:

more of the same crapola.

Dirk Gently

El Stuntman wrote: »

Institute a 'make work' scheme for all physically able dole recipients. 2 days a week you work for your community - painting walls in classrooms, cleaning beaches, maintaining parks and playgrounds, planting trees, training underage GAA teams etc. Gives unemployed a sense of purpose and also pride\ownership in their community.
.

what about the people who are already paid to do this? no jobs for them if dole recipients are going to do it instead, resulting in more people on the dole. How will you make them work, without putting other peoples jobs in danger or preventing someone from potentially starting up a business and creating employment. ohh, and that €50 cash wont go a long way to simulating the local economy or even paying a bill.

whippet

El Stuntman wrote: »

Tell us that Fianna Fail are largely culpable for this. Tell us that harsh measures are going to be needed on all fronts in order to preserve our status as a sovereign nation.
Announce that he is cutting his salary to a symblic 1 euro per year until such time as the national budget is balanced.

so what you are saying is that anyone who was culpible for the mess we are in should give up their income for the national good ??

well then anyone who was out frantically filling in dubious mortage application forms to buy their second home / investment property / pension property / quick money making flip property should do the same as they were partly responsible for inflating the market, creating a demand that only existed based on massive borrowings and 'equity' in other properties (what a false economy that was) .....

when will society grow up and accept that just about all aspect of the irish population has had a hand in the demise .... stop pointing fingers and start looking for solutions.

Spudmonkey

clown bag wrote: »

what about the people who are already paid to do this? no jobs for them if dole recipients are going to do it instead, resulting in more people on the dole. How will you make them work, without putting other peoples jobs in danger or preventing someone from potentially starting up a business and creating employment. ohh, and that €50 cash wont go a long way to simulating the local economy or even paying a bill.

Do you mean to say there isn't any work thats needs doing in your local community? There is more than enough work to go around. In no way is this going to put people out of employment, those who say it is are looking for excuses.

And also this is only for a few hours each week, do you mean to tell me those unemployed are spending every waking hour looking for new jobs, or trying to start businesses.

The money otherwise spent will still make it into the local economy, just through other avenues. Besides, vouchers for food, heating etc are the same as cash, they are just making sure welfare is spent on the proper things!

solice

clown bag wrote: »

what about the people who are already paid to do this? no jobs for them if dole recipients are going to do it instead, resulting in more people on the dole. How will you make them work, without putting other peoples jobs in danger or preventing someone from potentially starting up a business and creating employment. ohh, and that €50 cash wont go a long way to simulating the local economy or even paying a bill.

There is plenty of community work to go around, and it will always be needed to be done. I dont think that anyone would loose their job as a result of that idea.

whippet wrote: »

so what you are saying is that anyone who was culpible for the mess we are in should give up their income for the national good ??

Thats putting words in his mouth. He said that FF were culpable and that Cowen should take a paycut.

whippet

whippet wrote: »

stop pointing fingers and start looking for solutions.

But it's easier to point fingers.

We are in this mess because developers/bankers/FF politicans are demons. Insert some reference to flogging or hanging them all. Insert some reference to the tent at the Galway Races. Argument made.

whippet

solice wrote: »

Thats putting words in his mouth. He said that FF were culpable and that Cowen should take a paycut.

I didn't know that Brian Cowen was responsible for the financial products that were derived in the US based on subprime lending ..... sure didn't FG and Labour demand a massive reduction in stamp duties a few years back which would have further inflated property prices and demand for new houses creating an even bigger fall !!!

What I am saying is that society as a whole created the mess .. so everyone should have to help rebuild ... everyone from the developers & bankers to the brickies and chippies who were living like royalty charging what they liked as demand allowed them to.

based on my wifes and I's earnings drop this year so far due to pay freezes, levys etc ... the reality is I won't be going on a second holiday this year. If that is all I have to suffer I think I will be doing quite well ... and my reductions in mortgage repayments will help soften that blow !!

solice

whippet wrote: »

I didn't know that Brian Cowen was responsible for the financial products that were derived in the US based on subprime lending ..... sure didn't FG and Labour demand a massive reduction in stamp duties a few years back which would have further inflated property prices and demand for new houses creating an even bigger fall !!!

What I am saying is that society as a whole created the mess .. so everyone should have to help rebuild ... everyone from the developers & bankers to the brickies and chippies who were living like royalty charging what they liked as demand allowed them to.

Scapegoating society is one thing, but dont forget that Brian Cowen was minister for Finance for the run up to the situation we find ourselves in.

Effectively he was holding the purse strings and he was giving money out left right and centre. Instead of developing an efficinet SW system (which would have been much easier to do when we had near zero unemployment) he splurged! and so far he has abdicated all responsibility and seems unable to make the hard decisions. FF are not unpopular at the moment becasue of tough decisions, they are unpopular due to incompetence!

I dont thinkthe Govt is attacking the "vulnerable", i think they are attempting to roll back on certain spending spluges over the last couple of years. This could be a good thing such as keeping SW payments inline with inflation but it could also be a bad thing, cutting funding to a childrens hospital forcing families to leave the country to get medical treatment.

But the one common thread in everything, the govt. is making quick decisions that have not been thought out. Instead of attempting to reform SW or public spending, they are just looking at making cuts here and there. Its like trying to put a bandaid on an amputee

solice

solice wrote: »

Scapegoating society is one thing, but dont forget that Brian Cowen was minister for Finance for the run up to the situation we find ourselves in.

As a member of FF, gotta say that's pretty much it.

It is not black and white. I don't think anyone could seriously contend that FF are wilfully attacking the vulnerable. But people like Cowen cannot claim to have been left carrying the can for worldwide problems. He, and many of his fellow ministers, were the people whose job it was to intervene, to regulate the market, to channel the boom into projects or expenditure that would bring sustained benefits. They went for the quick fix too many times, throw money at pensions, throw money at the dole, smooth all obstacles to the buying and selling of land like reducing CGT, so he can't run for the hills now.